1. #1501
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The Nerubian were not directly born from an Old God. They are the DESCENDANTS of the race that was directly born from the Old God, aka the Aqir.
    Sure let’s say they are just grand children of the old gods, surely then we should just grab any naga or void elf kids born after there Parants change and they will be fully void free then we can just wipe out the past generations.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  2. #1502

  3. #1503
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Void corruption lore is honestly far worse. The fact that literally any character can get Talk No Jutsu'd into being evil if they stand in purple too long is incredibly annoying.
    I wasn't really advocating for what Varo said either I just wish the "LEL FLESH IS A OLD GOD THING ONLY. But it is a naturally occuring thing about life in the universe."


    Oh boy, five?! Xal

    If she doesn't appear soon I'll have questions on what is she up to.
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  4. #1504
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Void corruption lore is honestly far worse. The fact that literally any character can get Talk No Jutsu'd into being evil if they stand in purple too long is incredibly annoying.
    That's reductive and you know it. Void corruption is more complex than that, Old Gods corrupt people with their maddening whispers and the constant voices they send into the victim's head, which definitely makes them a unique kind of villain in the Warcraft universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sure let’s say they are just grand children of the old gods, surely then we should just grab any naga or void elf kids born after there Parants change and they will be fully void free then we can just wipe out the past generations.
    Let's say what is Canonically correct, that they are an offshoot race of the original aqir.

    We don't know how the Nerubian were able to escape the Old Gods' grasp. It could be because their connection to the Old Gods became diluted once they evolved from aqir. It could be because they never lived in the IMMEDIATE proximity of Yogg-Saron's prison (as opposed to the qiraji who literally lived inside C'Thun's prison, and the Mantid who had carved huge murals of Y'Shaarj in their halls to remind themselves of their true master). It could be because Yogg-Saron became disinterested in the Nerubian and basically discarded them, believing that the Titanforged would be a much more useful army.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2023-02-03 at 03:46 PM.

  5. #1505
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Let's say what is Canonically correct, that they are an offshoot race of the original aqir.
    If we’re saying what’s canonical then there is nothing pointing to all void changed races always being tied to the void/ under there controls (curse of flesh, black dragons,), we know races can break away and stay free rather it be through gnome experiments outlasting them or just having kids( black dragons Nerubian’s), and as far as I know the average naga don’t even hear any whispers.


    No matter how you want to come at it canon wise the naga can be void/old god free even if the lesser void elfs aren’t.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-03 at 04:07 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #1506
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    If we’re saying what’s canonical then there is nothing pointing to all void changed races always being tied to the void/ under there controls (curse of flesh, black dragons,), we know races can break away and stay free rather it be through gnome experiments outlasting them or just having kids( black dragons Nerubian’s), and as far as I know the average naga don’t even hear any whispers.


    No matter how you want to come at it canon wise the naga can be void/old god free even if the lesser void elfs aren’t.
    1) Void elves are in no way, shape, or form "lesser" compared to the Naga, and the Naga have even worse Void mutations than Void elves. Void elves still look like graceful elves, the Naga literally look like disgusting snake-men.

    2) It is Canonically stated in the Chronicles that, as part of the bargain, the Naga would serve N'Zoth. It was also stated, and I quote, that "their hearts became as black as the deepest ocean trenches, and hate enveloped their thoughts". So, Canonically, N'Zoth's influence clearly had an impact on the Naga's psyche.

    N'Zoth is the smartest and most cunning villain Blizzard has ever created. N'Zoth is not stupid enough to create an entire serpentine race of warriors without any built-in system to control them as insurance policy.

    I already proposed a way in which the Naga can find redemption, by involving the Kaldorei and the Ren'dorei. But the idea that they are not influenced by the Old Gods is easily disproven by the source material.

  7. #1507
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    1) Void elves are in no way, shape, or form "lesser" compared to the Naga, and the Naga have even worse Void mutations than Void elves. Void elves still look like graceful elves, the Naga literally look like disgusting snake-men.
    void elfs can’t even breath under water how could they be any thing but lesser.

    Hell even a gnome was able to cleanse the taint of the void with the help of a red dragon, void elfs are lesser then even gnomes.

    2) It is Canonically stated in the Chronicles that, as part of the bargain, the Naga would serve N'Zoth. It was also stated, and I quote, that "their hearts became as black as the deepest ocean trenches, and hate enveloped their thoughts". So, Canonically, N'Zoth's influence clearly had an impact on the Naga's psyche.
    notice how it doesn’t mention any whispers or them being for ever tied to the void.

    What it describes is no different then what happens to the black dragons or what the Nub’s would have been born into.



    N'Zoth is the smartest and most cunning villain Blizzard has ever created. N'Zoth is not stupid enough to create an entire serpentine race of warriors without any built-in system to control them as insurance policy.
    sure you can say he wouldn’t do what ever you want, but it’s not canon.

    I already proposed a way in which the Naga can find redemption, by involving the Kaldorei and the Ren'dorei. But the idea that they are not influenced by the Old Gods is easily disproven by the source material.
    they are influenced but that’s not the same thing as being for ever tied to it like the lesser void elfs and there is no lore saying they would need help from a lesser race to cure an affliction they don’t have.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #1508
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    void elfs can’t even breath under water how could they be any thing but lesser.

    Hell even a gnome was able to cleanse the taint of the void with the help of a red dragon, void elfs are lesser then even gnomes.
    Funny, so according to you, a fish is more evolved than a human.

    notice how it doesn’t mention any whispers or them being for ever tied to the void.
    Basic knowledge of the Old Gods and their powers as well as basic elementary deduction skills should make it obvious that the Old God have influence on the Naga via whispers.

    Never mind the fact that the Old Gods don't even need to influence someone's body to influence to them, they just need to be in relative proximity, like they did with the untainted Neltharion.
    What it describes is no different then what happens to the black dragons or what the Nub’s would have been born into.
    Black dragons have not been physically twisted by the Void. When they do, they become Twilight or Void dragons, and those are beyond redemption.

    The Nerubian were never born from the Old Gods. They were born from the Aqir. This is Canon fact and you already conceded on this point.

    sure you can say he wouldn’t do what ever you want, but it’s not canon.
    It is Canon that the Naga served N'Zoth as the Chronicles specifically mentions "servitude" under N'Zoth.

    they are influenced but that’s not the same thing as being for ever tied to it like the lesser void elfs and there is no lore saying they would need help from a lesser race to cure an affliction they don’t have.
    Last I checked, Naga are animals who can't even wear shoes, that makes Void elves biologically superior.

    And last I checked, the Void elves never served any Void creature, whereas the Naga are nothing more than just another cog in N'Zoth's slave machine.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2023-02-03 at 04:55 PM.

  9. #1509
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Honestly, I will counter your statement. I say that I honestly think it would be worse—although I see what you mean by the forces each being demeaned by the presence of the Totally Definitely First For Sure Until We Make Something Else Up Ones, I think that introducing a new enemy entirely alien to the Cosmic Forces would inevitably be worse than simply skimming over the fact until further notice, or claiming for whatever reason that the Void Lords and the like were not printed out of their respective Force's Zereth like the Pantheon of Death were. The issue with this new set of entities is that they will invariably fall flat on account of the typical quality of Blizzard writing—they cannot feasibly present the extraordinary cosmic threat they're meant to be simply on account of the law of diminishing returns. When we continue up the ladder of supposedly the worst threats evah!!!, then the story becomes increasingly unbearable as all stakes promptly dissipate entirely.
    Ya i cant disagree with that. Perhaps i shouldve worded it better: a new threat has potential IN THEORY (and even that only bc they completely eradicated any potential the other villains ever had). Purely in theory, as a concept.
    Practically, its gonna fall falt on its face ofc, for the simple fact that this new uber-big-bad would eventually become our generic-one-line-spewing loot-pinata, which we will beat with sticks for them shiny epiczzz. And then, an even bigger villain will be pulled out of the hat.

    But i do like the basic idea on paper, just to have one enemy left that cant trace its origin back to the factory line of an oversized a 3D-printer.

    About it being the cosmic war itself on the hand...i dont know if that could be in any way exciting, considering that war is already happening. The cosmic war has been going on since forever. The forces are fighting right now, and have been doing so the entire time. To suddenly make that into the thing the Janitor and N'zoth were trying to "prevent", they would have to say it is about to heavily escalate for x reason. And that reason would have to be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In general, they need to stop designing the cosmic elements of the story by spreadsheet and allow the different forces to be individual rather than themed versions of the same blueprint.
    Thats basically it.
    But at this point, idk if thats even possible anymore. Weve seen that basically every force can do everything the others can. Weve seen people enslaved and controlled by the Void, enslaved and controlled by Fel, enslaved and controlled by Death, enslaved and controlled by the Light, etc. Weve seen people be rezzd by Death, weve seen people be rezzd by the Void, weve seen people be rezzd by Fel, weve seen people be rezzd by the Light. And it goes on. There is really no individuality between them anymore, except they are coloured differently.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  10. #1510
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Funny, so according to you, a fish is more evolved than a human.
    No, but give that fish some arms and magic and there superior to a void elf.

    I mean if gnomes are superior it isn’t hard.


    Basic knowledge of the Old Gods and their powers as well as basic elementary deduction skills should make it obvious that the Old God have influence on the Naga via whispers.
    sure now show us in the canon where this applies to Naga instead of them just following orders down a chain of command.

    Never mind the fact that the Old Gods don't even need to influence someone's body to influence to them, they just need to be in relative proximity, like they did with the untainted Neltharion.
    they don’t need to influence one body to effect the mind, just like it isn’t canon that if they change the body the mind is for ever influenced.


    Black dragons have not been physically twisted by the Void. When they do, they become Twilight or Void dragons, and those are beyond redemption.
    canon disagrees.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lost_Flight

    The Nerubian were never born from the Old Gods. They were born from the Aqir. This is Canon fact and you already conceded on this point.
    yes and being born from the Aqir they would still face all of the same effects both culturally and physiologically, unless of course kids are just clear of all taint and we just need to wipe out the naga/void elfs once they have a generation.



    It is Canon that the Naga served N'Zoth as the Chronicles specifically mentions "servitude" under N'Zoth.
    now show the canon that they suffer from whispers or are for ever under the voids thrall like your claiming.



    Last I checked, Naga are animals who can't even wear shoes, that makes Void elves biologically superior.
    the fact that the void elfs need shoes and can’t survive in there environment as they are shows they are biologically inferior.

    And last I checked, the Void elves never served any Void creature, whereas the Naga are nothing more than just another cog in N'Zoth's slave machine.
    better a cog then a worthless piece of space debris.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-02-03 at 05:22 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #1511
    Field Marshal Imnotadentist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Turalyon doesn't hate the undead he fully accepts Faol once he senses the light in him in before the storm.
    You are also forgetting that he is the High exarch, and the Lightforged were made with the soul purpose of destroying the Lights "enemies"
    Also, him accepting Faol is him accepting AN undead, not all undead, and Sylvanus would likely be an undead hed take joy in killing.

  12. #1512
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    You are also forgetting that he is the High exarch, and the Lightforged were made with the soul purpose of destroying the Lights "enemies"
    Also, him accepting Faol is him accepting AN undead, not all undead, and Sylvanus would likely be an undead hed take joy in killing.
    The light raised Cali, the undead in of them selfs aren’t the lights enemy.

    His wife is an actual enemy of the light and he supports her.

    Illidan blew up an arch angle of the light he did next to nothing.

    Dude is as far as you can get from a unthinking zealot looking for enemy’s of the light to. Slay.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #1513
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    But i do like the basic idea on paper, just to have one enemy left that cant trace its origin back to the factory line of an oversized a 3D-printer.
    My personal remedy for this is that I think it would be best if the other forces' deities weren't produced directly in a Zereth, and were instead natural products of sentient or semi-sentient elements of that Cosmic Force experiencing its central drive. The Void's hunger and endless recognition of potential created the Void Lords to give itself meaning, Order's desire to know itself and expand created the Titans, the Light's hope to enlighten the universe led to the Naaru emerging from it as its agents etc. Given that the "machine of Death" is so excessively mechanical in nature, it isn't too unlikely to assume that Death is more artificial than the other COsmic Forces and most do grow naturally from their respective origin points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    About it being the cosmic war itself on the hand...i dont know if that could be in any way exciting, considering that war is already happening. The cosmic war has been going on since forever. The forces are fighting right now, and have been doing so the entire time. To suddenly make that into the thing the Janitor and N'zoth were trying to "prevent", they would have to say it is about to heavily escalate for x reason. And that reason would have to be good.
    My personal suggestion, as I've said lately, is that "what is to come" should vary from the perspective of different Cosmic Forces—the reason they so detest one another is that they consider the victory of any of the other forces to be the worst possible outcome for all of creation. Rather than the conflict being what the Janitor and N'Zoth were acting to preempt, it would be the possible victory of the other Cosmic Forces, especially since there is precedent to think quite a few of them are pretty close to something resembling victory. Naturally, the idea of one becoming prominent would horrify the other five, and so they'd all think it's a compelling reason for the petty mortals to lay down their arms and join them if they told them that another force might win. Unfortunately, this isn't as compelling an argument for the stupid little meat creatures as it is for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    better a cog then a worthless piece of space debris.
    Plus, it's innately disingenuous to say that the Naga are wholly subordinate to the Old Gods, given that we have precedent for at least one subordinate to a force actively opposed to them and Azshara outwardly intended to betray N'Zoth after getting Xal'Atath. These things suggest that the Naga are capable of self-determination even in their current state.

    That, and they're actually arguably in a less unstable state than the Void Elves, given that the Void Elves were actively exposed to the considerably more sanity-rending Void and seem to have trouble not going insane, whereas the Naga are seemingly not subject to that problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    N'Zoth is the smartest and most cunning villain Blizzard has ever created. N'Zoth is not stupid enough to create an entire serpentine race of warriors without any built-in system to control them as insurance policy.
    Remind me what happens at the end of Battle for Azeroth again?

  14. #1514
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Plus, it's innately disingenuous to say that the Naga are wholly subordinate to the Old Gods, given that we have precedent for at least one subordinate to a force actively opposed to them and Azshara outwardly intended to betray N'Zoth after getting Xal'Atath. These things suggest that the Naga are capable of self-determination even in their current state.
    huh never knew that guy was an actual npc and not just a holiday throw away.

    That, and they're actually arguably in a less unstable state than the Void Elves, given that the Void Elves were actively exposed to the considerably more sanity-rending Void and seem to have trouble not going insane, whereas the Naga are seemingly not subject to that problem.
    ya I don’t think any of the naga but Azshara are even shown to have any direct lines to the void, they only ever speak of serving there queen not the void so her deal may be a strict chain of command where the void only speaks to her and then she passes it along.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #1515
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Sometimes i worry about you, Varodoc.
    But it is also entertaining at the same time.
    The thing that makes the more unfortunate breed of Elf fanboyism annoying is that it inherently undermines what makes Warcraft Elves appealing to me—I much prefer them as highly-flawed parasitic creatures to "le BESTEST RAHSE OF THEM ALL!!!!" is because it gives them a personality beyond a hollow circlejerk. The common thread of Elves in fantasy, going back to Tolkien, is that they really are a beautiful and intelligent race, but they're also very innately flawed in some capacity. In Warcraft, Elves are flawed because they are arrogant, destructive people who are innately power-hungry. This is a fun and interesting portrayal, but Elf fanboys prefer to go on ad nauesum about why their chosen subrace would not have said set of flaws and are truly the epitome of sapient life. When people try to portray them as the bestest race that would never ever have any flaws and have infinite potential, they're fundamentally undermining what makes Elves as a race interesting as opposed to plain annoying.

  16. #1516
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    If she doesn't appear soon I'll have questions on what is she up to.
    You should be worried about what she is up to the moment she is out of your sight Heck even when she is in front of you.

  17. #1517
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Sometimes i worry about you, Varodoc.
    But it is also entertaining at the same time.
    This is part of the reason why I don't join in these old god discussions.

  18. #1518
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sure let’s say they are just grand children of the old gods, surely then we should just grab any naga or void elf kids born after there Parants change and they will be fully void free then we can just wipe out the past generations.
    That's why I like the 10.0 Tyr logs suggest "Corruption" is just a concept Titan Constructs have that means "anything not rigidly in-line with the mission statement given to them by the Titans" Agents of the Void might still be using mind control in certain situations but it fixes a lot of lore if the whole concept of Corruption is just part of Titan Propaganda. It's not as compelling to say "Oh, some weird mind infection made this person evil" rather than a legitimate philosophical conflict.

  19. #1519
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Dumb question, is there more info on these worldbreaker guys. Is there more to them other then...what it seems like.


    Edit: I might of gotten my answer.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2023-02-04 at 12:26 AM.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  20. #1520
    Field Marshal Imnotadentist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Turalyon doesn't hate the undead he fully accepts Faol once he senses the light in him in before the storm.
    Maybe you misunderstood what i was saying
    Hes an Exarch, meaning one of the lightforged, meaning his literal purpose is to kill demons and other enemies of the lght. Now i understand he is buddies with Faol, but that is 1 undead, not all of the undead. And Genn 100% hates the undead (sylvanus destroying Gilneas/ murdering his son in front of him)
    It was just an Idea, and plausible at that.

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