1. #16721
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Feels a bit silly to use "waste" in regards to Avaloren. We "learned" about it this expansion, and I say "learned" because we don't really know anything about it besides that it's a place. Like they could easily throw in two more new place names in a clickable object in 10.2 and we'd have two new Avaloren-tier locations established for future continents.

    It's not like this is Nazjatar or Argus or something, where it's an actual location with a properly established long-term lore enemy and context, where we know what it could be.
    Have to agree. It's like saying Zaralek caverns was wasted on a patch when it could have been a vast cave network underneath Azeroth used by Deathwing and filled with Nerubians and Old God remnants.
    Sure it's true, but it's also a meaningless point ot make when we know nothing.

    The only reason Avaloren is given so much focus is because it's possibly the backside of Azeroth, which understndably shouldnt be a single small island.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #16722
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    BFA starts with Saurfang going against her direct orders, ends with Baine and abunch of others doing the same thing, and even Sylvanas her self and many others went against Garrosh's direct orders when he was warchief in cata.

    "just following order" is not an excuse.
    The issue with BfA is that Saurfang started the war (he didn't follow Sylvanas, he agrees with her that this war must be started for the horde to have a future as an equal to the Alliance) and then did a 180 when he managed to injure Malfurion on a battlefield. The guy is depicted as having a peanut for a brain and can't stop talking about honour, etc. I imagine it being pretty hard for leaders and soldiers of the horde to follow such buffoonery

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    Quote Originally Posted by Well Done Steak View Post
    You'll feel different for 2.5 and the potential Uldaz mini raid.
    They ended with a mini raid during WotLK, I'm not sure they will attempt it again.

  3. #16723
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    The issue with BfA is that Saurfang started the war (he didn't follow Sylvanas, he agrees with her that this war must be started for the horde to have a future as an equal to the Alliance) and then did a 180 when he managed to injure Malfurion on a battlefield. The guy is depicted as having a peanut for a brain and can't stop talking about honour, etc. I imagine it being pretty hard for leaders and soldiers of the horde to follow such buffoonery
    The issue I saw is that the "A Good Soldier" story released alongside BfA gave him an understandable motivation. However said motivation was both not shown in-game, nor was it ever a theme within BfA as a whole.
    A version of BfA where the Horde is coerced into Teldrassil, and then sticks to it for an actually justified fear of total annihilation from the Alliance would be interesting. You could have actually played with the knowledge that the Horde would be finished should they concede defeat, and have Sylvanas prey on those fears to further escalate the war, making it even harder for the Horde to capitulate.

    Instead the Horde gets away with everything because the Alliance are toothless, and everything was done by nebulous Sylvanas loyalists who are never mentioned or acknowledged until the very end when they are all in chains.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  4. #16724
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    The issue with BfA is that Saurfang started the war (he didn't follow Sylvanas, he agrees with her that this war must be started for the horde to have a future as an equal to the Alliance) and then did a 180 when he managed to injure Malfurion on a battlefield. The guy is depicted as having a peanut for a brain and can't stop talking about honour, etc. I imagine it being pretty hard for leaders and soldiers of the horde to follow such buffoonery

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    They ended with a mini raid during WotLK, I'm not sure they will attempt it again.
    Why not? Ruby sanctum was pretty good and a nice segue into Cata.

  5. #16725
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Well Done Steak View Post
    None of them were instant.... It all took time. You expect INSTANT insubordination, which isn't realistic.

    So yeah it's an excuse when it takes time and careful planning to dethrone your commander and chief.
    I’m not expecting instant insubordination, I expect any at all, and there was none.

    The Majority of the horde weren’t planning on dethroning her like Garrosh, her she had popular support and the token forces that stood against her couldn’t have taken her down even with the alliance army backing them up.

    And as far as the forsaken them self go, none of the council members in question were ever against her, you can even find some of them after she leaves who tell you that they were loyal to her but after she abandoned them they will stick with the horde.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    The issue with BfA is that Saurfang started the war (he didn't follow Sylvanas, he agrees with her that this war must be started for the horde to have a future as an equal to the Alliance) and then did a 180 when he managed to injure Malfurion on a battlefield. The guy is depicted as having a peanut for a brain and can't stop talking about honour, etc. I imagine it being pretty hard for leaders and soldiers of the horde to follow such buffoonery
    Well ya Saurfang is a blundering moron but even if horde members didn’t want to follow him they could have joined any number of natural factions to show case an actual split in the horde post darnnassas so the horde would atleast have some plausible deniability post BFA.

    As is now it’s totally unbelievable any one would let the horde and even more so abunch of Sylvanas’s core leading members who now run the forsaken any where near night elf territory or a new world tree like we see in 10.2.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #16726
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I’m not expecting instant insubordination, I expect any at all, and there was none.

    The Majority of the horde weren’t planning on dethroning her like Garrosh, her she had popular support and the token forces that stood against her couldn’t have taken her down even with the alliance army backing them up.

    And as far as the forsaken them self go, none of the council members in question were ever against her, you can even find some of them after she leaves who tell you that they were loyal to her but after she abandoned them they will stick with the horde.
    There was none? Saurfang begged players to not use the plague in Lorederon and then got himself arrested.

    Bain then returned jaina's brother to her.

    Garrosh had popular vote also and also had control of most of the horde. Both cases the rebels only had access to a handful of forces, since you know... The WARCHIEF had supreme command and you lower ranking members ain't gonna do shit.

    As for the forsaken, they're gonna look after their own and they need leadership. Renouncing sylvanas and regretting their part, along with sending troops to defend Amirdrassil is gonna have to be enough. So the alliance needs to suck it up and accept it without causing another useless war because they're still upset at a lack of justice against some forsaken.

  7. #16727
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Again we already fought Tyr in the Megadungeon. And why the hell would you want to waste Avaloren, which can be easily a continent on it's own just to make it a patch zone??
    What's your problem with Tyr? He will obviously continue to play a role at least in DF. Just because we fought him (an alternate version) in a dungeon doesn't mean he's done with for this expansion.
    Samin
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashrana View Post
    So, what would be your reaction, if you found out, that come cata release first patch, blizzard were planning to kill everyone by sending a bear through the mail?

  8. #16728
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post



    Well ya Saurfang is a blundering moron but even if horde members didn’t want to follow him they could have joined any number of natural factions to show case an actual split in the horde post darnnassas so the horde would atleast have some plausible deniability post BFA.

    As is now it’s totally unbelievable any one would let the horde and even more so abunch of Sylvanas’s core leading members who now run the forsaken any where near night elf territory or a new world tree like we see in 10.2.
    Abandoning is also cause for death...

    The forsaken arent the only ones defending the tree... They have a lot of eyes on them so they wouldn't try anything stupid.

    This is their ultimate atonement. So yeah it's believable.

    This is also a game where the characters sense of justice isn't as complex and nuanced as real life human...

  9. #16729
    Quote Originally Posted by Well Done Steak View Post
    This is their ultimate atonement. So yeah it's believable.
    "Believable?"
    It shouldn't be to Nightelves

  10. #16730
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    "Believable?"
    It shouldn't be to Nightelves
    Sure, which is why they're not the only ones defending it. Again, lots of eyes on them in a cosmic realm without any cosmic back up if they were scheming something stupid. Not like they have anything to gain...

    Once the tree is defend though.... Should be in a better place with the nelves...

    Similar to how Germany is part of NATO.

    THATS JUST AN EXAMPLE.

    This fictional situation is not as complex as real life affairs.

    Point is the forsaken are atoning for their crimes and should be in a better place with the alliance post 10.2. Not saying some nelves can't hold a grudge either

  11. #16731
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Well Done Steak View Post
    There was none? Saurfang begged players to not use the plague in Lorederon and then got himself arrested.

    Bain then returned jaina's brother to her.
    I already pointed to both Saurfang and Baine as to why doing nothing isn't an excuse, the “there was none” is for the majority of the horde who stuck with her until she left them which includes the whole of the forsaken council -Calia.

    Garrosh had popular vote also and also had control of most of the horde.
    He didn’t, the devs have said in a QnA years ago that the only people who supported Garrosh was young glory hungry orcs, the dragon maw clan and the black fuse company.

    The cows trolls forsaken blood elfs and older orcs were all against him from the moment he became war chief as shown in the shattering, cata questing, tides of war, and mop questing where they all break off leading into SoO.

    As for the forsaken, they're gonna look after their own and they need leadership. Renouncing sylvanas and regretting their part, along with sending troops to defend Amirdrassil is gonna have to be enough. So the alliance needs to suck it up and accept it without causing another useless war because they're still upset at a lack of justice against some forsaken.
    Ya and all of that is horrible writing.

    The Forsaken can find new leader ship without letting abunch of Sylvanas’s core staff take up the roles as seen by Calia and to a lesser extent Voss.

    Pretending they regret any thing while giving all those involved -Sylvanas a free pass is a farce.

    And no one in there right mind would let them send troops instead of turning them away and telling the horde to send the Earthen ring or other members who didn’t take part in BFA.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-09-11 at 02:51 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #16732
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I already pointed to both Saurfang and Baine as to why doing nothing isn't an excuse, the “there was none” is for the majority of the horde who stuck with her until she left them which includes the whole of the forsaken council -Calia.

    He didn’t, the devs have said in a QnA year ago that the only people who supported Garrosh was young glory hungry orcs, the dragon maw clan and the black fuse company.

    The cows trolls forsaken blood elfs and older orcs were all against him from the moment he became war chief as shown in the shattering, cata questing, tides of war, and mop questing where they all break off leading into SoO.

    Ya and all of that is horrible writing.

    The Forsaken can find new leader ship without letting abunch of Sylvanas’s core staff take up the roles as seen by Calia and to a lesser extent Voss.

    Pretending they regret any thing while giving all those involved -Sylvanas a free pass is a farce.

    And no one in there right mind would let them send troops instead of turning them away and telling the horde to send the CC or other members who didn’t take part in BFA.
    Not everyone can have the balls of Baine and saurfang and not care about potentially facing death for insubordination.

    That's why it took the combined force of the alliance and voljin rebels to take him out right... Garrosh had a majority of the overall forces. How else you justify needing such a massive force.

    Dude this is warcraft not GoT. The writing doesn't need to be Grammy worthy. It's believable enough for warcraft.

    If this was GoT, the alliance would have dismantled the horde in MoP.

    They're protecting the tree under the watchful eye of EVERYONE and they're leadership renounced sylvanas. Even if some of the council was part of sylv circle, AT LEAST they have calia and voss to even it out somewhat.

  13. #16733
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Why would Tyr side against the other keepers when his motivations seems heavily tilted towards pushing the Titan agenda?
    Odyn and Tyr have the same overall objective, but their means to reach such an end may be different, as may be their interpretations as to how that objective should manifest. Trotsky and Stalin were both Marxist-Leninists trying to establish an authoritarian/statist communist social order, but their visions of how to achieve that and how that would look in practice were very different. Same thing with how Hitler and Strasser had different ideas of what a German ethnostate should look like. The same category of ideology doesn't preclude violent infighting between schools.

    In the case of Odyn and Tyr, Odyn prefers using Titanforged life and—implicitly, from his actions in Legion—other humanoid lifeforms as enforcers through a sort of religious meritocracy. Conversely, Tyr seems to prefer the idea of an appointed hierarchical system of control enforced more indirectly by pumping Order juice into the water to convert and control non-Titanforged life. In retrospect, this makes Odyn actually look more like the lesser of two evils because he allows for a degree of free will, so I am actually wondering if we'll instead butt heads with Tyr, who strikes me as less permissive in that regard.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2023-09-11 at 03:12 PM.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You'll believe it when you see it for yourself.

  14. #16734
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Odyn and Tyr have the same overall objective, but their means to reach such an end may be different, as may be their interpretations as to how that objective should manifest. Trotsky and Stalin were both Marxist-Leninists trying to establish an authoritarian/statist communist social order, but their visions of how to achieve that and how that would look in practice were very different. Same thing with how Hitler and Strasser had different ideas of what a German ethnostate should look like. The same category of ideology doesn't preclude violent infighting between schools.
    Infighting maybe, but all that sounds to me is that Tyr would then be even more devious by using us to elimiate his rival Odyn.
    This still doesnt really answer me why Tyr would look at the Aspect experiment failing in whatever way, and then deciding to still side with us because Odyn wants to kill us, whereas he just wants to put us into eternal stasis or whatever.

    There doesnt seem to be much wiggle room in the Titan agenda as we see it. Loken was seemingly the only Keeper in Ulduar willing to treat non-Titan creations as anything more than aggressive wildlife. So unless Tyr was secretly always of the same mind it doesnt seem like he would necessarily side with us against Odyn.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #16735
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Infighting maybe, but all that sounds to me is that Tyr would then be even more devious by using us to elimiate his rival Odyn.
    This still doesnt really answer me why Tyr would look at the Aspect experiment failing in whatever way, and then deciding to still side with us because Odyn wants to kill us, whereas he just wants to put us into eternal stasis or whatever.
    I had actually only just edited my post when you posted to point out that Tyr is just as, if not more, sinister. I'm honestly unsure if we'll even certainly be taking sides, since this infighting could just be their business without room for our intervention. If we do, though, I could actually see us siding with Odyn instead of Tyr if things between them come to blows. I doubt it will be a matter of either trying to exterminate us, just one having a more appealing vision of the future than the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Loken was seemingly the only Keeper in Ulduar willing to treat non-Titan creations as anything more than aggressive wildlife. So unless Tyr was secretly always of the same mind it doesnt seem like he would necessarily side with us against Odyn.
    Both Odyn and Tyr have made use of non-Titanforged proxies, the former in Legion by recruiting them to the Valarjar and the latter by uplifting/controlling them back in Azeroth's prehistory.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2023-09-11 at 03:17 PM.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You'll believe it when you see it for yourself.

  16. #16736
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    "Believable?"
    It shouldn't be to Nightelves
    Besides all this being Elune's master plan, this shouldn't be so contentious considering the contingency of Forsaken who came to defend the tree are led by a Kaldorei General who died defending teldrassil. Imagine Tyrande telling off Delaryn; that makes no sense. Being so dramatic about it makes Alliance stans seem like they have a victim complex.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2023-09-11 at 03:18 PM.

  17. #16737
    Brewmaster doledippers's Avatar
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    interesting that the glad mounts are patch themed. gold/fiery for 10.1, green for 10.2, and the datamined season 4 one is purply and void looking. Seems on brand for a patch where we'd deal with iridikron. Obv doesn't guarantee a full patch 10.3, it could easily be for a season 4 SL type thing, but the theme matches what we expect to happen in a 10.3

  18. #16738
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Well Done Steak View Post
    Not everyone can have the balls of Baine and saurfang and not care about potentially facing death for insubordination.
    Baine having balls? Ha, No.

    Baine defecting shows any one in the horde could do it and the only reason they didn’t is because they agreed with her as Lor'themar says him self in BFA when Baine is freed.

    That's why it took the combined force of the alliance and voljin rebels to take him out right... Garrosh had a majority of the overall forces. How else you justify needing such a massive force.
    again the Devs them selfs have already told us who stood with him, your just wrong.

    Dude this is warcraft not GoT. The writing doesn't need to be Grammy worthy. It's believable enough for warcraft.
    mabye for what wow has become post BFA but what it’s become is bloody awful writing wise.

    Not to say that wow was GoT pre BFA but it was still far better then now where stuff like this actually did effect rather factions would work with each other. See the wrath gate Ulduar and Icc for an example.



    They're protecting the tree under the watchful eye of EVERYONE and they're leadership renounced sylvanas. Even if some of the council was part of sylv circle, AT LEAST they have calia and voss to even it out somewhat.
    again they didn't even renounce Sylvanas, they stuck with her until she left them and then said if she was going to abandon them they would stick with the horde without her.

    If she has never left them they would still all be happily serving under her.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #16739
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    BFA starts with Saurfang going against her direct orders, ends with Baine and abunch of others doing the same thing, and even Sylvanas her self and many others went against Garrosh's direct orders when he was warchief in cata.

    "just following order" is not an excuse.
    Considering that's how it works irl, it's more than a good enough excuse.

  20. #16740
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    If she has never left them they would still all be happily serving under her.
    I think the majority of the horde leadership assembling an army against her before the Mak'gora would have been a big issue for the citizens actually.

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