1. #16741
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Baine having balls? Ha, No.

    Baine defecting shows any one in the horde could do it and the only reason they didn’t is because they agreed with her as Lor'themar says him self in BFA when Baine is freed.

    again the Devs them selfs have already told us who stood with him, your just wrong.

    mabye for what wow has become post BFA but what it’s become is bloody awful writing wise.

    Not to say that wow was GoT pre BFA but it was still far better then now where stuff like this actually did effect rather factions would work with each other. See the wrath gate Ulduar and Icc for an example.



    again they didn't even renounce Sylvanas, they stuck with her until she left them and then said if she was going to abandon them they would stick with the horde without her.

    If she has never left them they would still all be happily serving under her.
    Just because anyone could do it doesn't mean they will. Not everyone wants to die for a cause. And that's okay and completely believable.

    Yes, they did renounce her after she abandoned them, otherwise they'd try to still be with her or serve her and the jailer somehow. Doesn't matter what would have happened if she didn't leave.

    She left and they stayed with the horde and now are making up for it by protecting amir under the watchful eye of the world and hopefully redeem themselves.

    Again, at least the council has voss and calia as well.

  2. #16742
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    maybe they will delay Drae because of the Manari quest?
    It still feels a bit out of place, the Manari quest seems like the perfect heritage quest (backstory and moving forward etc) so its a bit weird
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyscale View Post
    But then again, in the story, we're pretty brutal murder machines and not really "strategical assets". Just send us in and we'll murder everything in our way!
    So I guess the solution here is simple - we'll murder everyone.

  3. #16743
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Besides all this being Elune's master plan, this shouldn't be so contentious considering the contingency of Forsaken who came to defend the tree are led by a Kaldorei General who died defending teldrassil. Imagine Tyrande telling off Delaryn; that makes no sense. Being so dramatic about it makes Alliance stans seem like they have a victim complex.
    "Hey, so, we're gonna bring in a bunch of convicted sex offenders to do security for this kids' parade."
    "Wha-"
    "No, no, no, it's fiiiine bro, relax. Chris Hansen is the one giving them orders and he's against child molesters, so it's not even a big deal, stop being so dramatic! Sheesh, what a victim complex."

  4. #16744
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Considering that's how it works irl, it's more than a good enough excuse.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #16745
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I had actually only just edited my post when you posted to point out that Tyr is just as, if not more, sinister. I'm honestly unsure if we'll even certainly be taking sides, since this infighting could just be their business without room for our intervention. If we do, though, I could actually see us siding with Odyn instead of Tyr if things between them come to blows. I doubt it will be a matter of either trying to exterminate us, just one having a more appealing vision of the future than the other.



    Both Odyn and Tyr have made use of non-Titanforged proxies, the former in Legion by recruiting them to the Valarjar and the latter by uplifting/controlling them back in Azeroth's prehistory.
    My personal pet theory regarding Tyr is that he always planned on a Dragons 3.0 by infusing pure Order magic into dragon eggs, thereby making what are effectively Titan-Forged dragons. In this case however the Aspects would just be a previous experiment that he doesnt necessarily care all that much about, instead treating them more like pets than fellow sentient beings. The High Evolutionary was after all a big deal in recent Marvel movies, so I wouldnt be surprised if the writers stole some ideas from him when writing the inevitable Tyr ressurection plot.

    Regardless we can only wait and see. There is afterall nothing definite until Tyr is actually ressurected. Presumably later in this patch.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #16746
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    "No, no, no, it's fiiiine bro, relax. Chris Hansen is the one giving them orders and he's against child molesters, so it's not even a big deal, stop being so dramatic! Sheesh, what a victim complex."
    You're going to be shocked when you find out they give equal apprehension to the fire druids who want to defend the new tree as they do the Forsaken.

    Tyrande isn't happy about it. Of course, they're not going to trust them. But the point is they're desperate for help so they're not going to be turned away. That's also part of the reason the Forsaken are there.

  7. #16747
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    I think the majority of the horde leadership assembling an army against her before the Mak'gora would have been a big issue for the citizens actually.
    They didn’t care when Baine was deemed a traitor as per what Lor'themar said and didn’t care when people started to defect and marched on org, so it’s unlikely.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #16748
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    My personal pet theory regarding Tyr is that he always planned on a Dragons 3.0 by infusing pure Order magic into dragon eggs, thereby making what are effectively Titan-Forged dragons. In this case however the Aspects would just be a previous experiment that he doesnt necessarily care all that much about, instead treating them more like pets than fellow sentient beings.
    The first bit I could see being somewhat sensible and could contextualize the silver scale a bit. However, I don't see the Aspects being outmoded given he seemed to have a great deal of faith in them and already gave them incredibly crucial positions and invested a ridiculous degree of power in them, especially Nozdormu.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You'll believe it when you see it for yourself.

  9. #16749
    Quote Originally Posted by Well Done Steak View Post
    Dude this is warcraft not GoT. The writing doesn't need to be Grammy worthy. It's believable enough for warcraft.
    No.
    It's only believable for the few, and those that don't care to make the problematic writing an issue.

  10. #16750
    I remember now that they mentioned DF would open with new dock revamps for Stormwind and Org. That didn't end up happening for either of them, and we didn't get HD Stormwind boats until 10.2. I don't think we've ever gotten an HD Orc boat, not counting the Maghar cruisers.

    Wonder what happened there? Did they realize it was silly to only revamp the docks instead of the whole city?

  11. #16751
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Well Done Steak View Post
    Just because anyone could do it doesn't mean they will. Not everyone wants to die for a cause. And that's okay and completely believable.
    these are all the same people who were willing to die for her cause under her command.

    So no it’s not believable that if they were against her they’d do nothing because there scared to die.

    Yes, they did renounce her after she abandoned them, otherwise they'd try to still be with her or serve her and the jailer somehow.
    not following her after she left them =\= renouncing her.

    They weren’t against any thing she did prior to leaving them, they were just against being abandoned.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #16752
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    They didn’t care when Baine was deemed a traitor as per what Lor'themar said and didn’t care when people started to defect and marched on org, so it’s unlikely.
    That's not what you said. You proclaimed the citizens of the Horde are complicit becuase they were ambivalent or otherwise unaffected. And that the horde would be continuing as normal if Sylvanas didn't leave after the Mak'gora, but there is no universe where that happens: They assembled most of the forces of the Horde at the gates of Org like during the seige of Orgrimmar. The storytellers properly conveyed a major political upheaval would have happened no matter what.

    You're not bringing anything to this conversation. You're decided the situation was unforgivable & that's going to be your opinion forever. You're not presenting any new information to those of us with a different stance on this. There's no point to keep discussing this.

  13. #16753
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    You're not bringing anything to this conversation. You're decided the situation was unforgivable & that's going to be your opinion forever. You're not presenting any new information to those of us with a different stance on this. There's no point to keep discussing this.
    Not much to say when one side promotes a Holocaust of Kaldorei.

  14. #16754
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Tyrande isn't happy about it. Of course, they're not going to trust them. But the point is they're desperate for help so they're not going to be turned away. That's also part of the reason the Forsaken are there.
    This doesn't really check out when there are other factions, just as capable of helping, and who aren't the ones who were actively pursuing genocide against the Night Elves a few years ago. Why isn't it Nightborne coming to assist as a gesture of good will for Tyrande's forces fighting their war? Why isn't it the Darkspear when Tyrande's forces were the only thing that stopped their revolution being stomped out at the gates of Org? Both of those are Horde forces indebted to Tyrande's reluctant help, with druidic elements in their ranks.

    This isn't happening in Tirisfal and the Forsaken are the ones who happen to be right there to help. It could have been anyone and they went with an actively bad choice instead of even an indifferent one.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2023-09-11 at 03:51 PM.

  15. #16755
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    these are all the same people who were willing to die for her cause under her command.

    So no it’s not believable that if they were against her they’d do nothing because there scared to die.

    not following her after she left them =\= renouncing her.

    They weren’t against any thing she did prior to leaving them, they were just against being abandoned.
    Right and being butt hurt instead of trying to still retain her favor is renouncing her...

    Following her doesn't guarantee death. Abandoning your post does.

  16. #16756
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samin View Post
    What's your problem with Tyr? He will obviously continue to play a role at least in DF. Just because we fought him (an alternate version) in a dungeon doesn't mean he's done with for this expansion.
    I have a problem with fighting Tyr again in a raid in 10.3. when we already fought him this Expansion. Of course he will play a role in the epilogue, but some people here are expecting him to be the endboss of Dragonflight lol. (Although clearly, Fyrrak is that)

  17. #16757
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    That's not what you said. You proclaimed the citizens of the Horde are complicit becuase they were ambivalent or otherwise unaffected. And that the horde would be continuing as normal if Sylvanas didn't leave after the Mak'gora, but there is no universe where that happens: They assembled most of the forces of the Horde at the gates of Org like during the seige of Orgrimmar. The storytellers properly conveyed a major political upheaval would have happened no matter what.
    sure let me fix my last post then. The horde would have absolutely stuck with her.

    As the sylvanas novel showed she still has support of the majority of the horde even with Saurfang/Baine at the gates which Nathanos points out to her and wanting to know if they will turn on the horde after the battle.

    You're not bringing anything to this conversation. You're decided the situation was unforgivable & that's going to be your opinion forever. You're not presenting any new information to those of us with a different stance on this. There's no point to keep discussing this.
    don’t project your doings onto me.

    I’ve already directly quoted shadows rising on this topic, sited Dev Q&A’s about Garrosh in a similar situation and how blizzard wrote such things in the past with examples like a ulduar and icc.

    You might add nothing but I haven’t been shy to do so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Well Done Steak View Post
    Right and being butt hurt instead of trying to still retain her favor is renouncing her...
    No it’s not.

    Following her doesn't guarantee death. Abandoning your post does.
    It doesn’t as shown by those who joined Baine/Saurfang and every one who stood against Garrosh.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #16758
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I remember now that they mentioned DF would open with new dock revamps for Stormwind and Org. That didn't end up happening for either of them, and we didn't get HD Stormwind boats until 10.2. I don't think we've ever gotten an HD Orc boat, not counting the Maghar cruisers.

    Wonder what happened there? Did they realize it was silly to only revamp the docks instead of the whole city?
    I imagine they just never got around to it, and by the time the deadline was closing in they realized they couldn't make it look good enough that it was worth it.

    Waiting for the opportunity for a proper big revamp was likely also a part of it. It's definitely easier to remake the entire thing in one go, rather than have to consider future changes to the docks.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #16759
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    This doesn't really check out when there are other factions, just as capable of helping, and who aren't the ones who were actively pursuing genocide against the Night Elves a few years ago. Why isn't it Nightborne coming to assist as a gesture of good will for Tyrande's forces fighting their war? Why isn't it the Darkspear when Tyrande's forces were the only thing that stopped their revolution being stomped out at the gates of Org? Both of those are Horde forces indebted to Tyrande's reluctant help, with druidic elements in their ranks.
    The "part" I was referring to was that they're there specifically because they want to be forgiven. The strategic penance. It's self-interested but that's how motives work. And they have no good reason to distrust Delaryn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Not much to say when one side promotes a Holocaust of Kaldorei.
    • The Aspects bless Nordrassil so the Night Elves will forever bear the responsibility of protecting it from corruption.
    • The Night Elves sacrifice their blessing to stop Archimonde from corrupting the planet.
    • The Aspects sacrifice their blessing to stop Neltharian from burning the world to ashes.
    • The Titans combine their powers to kill Argus, bringing the Jailers ancient plan remake the universe to fruition.
    • Sylvanas burns Teldrassil. Elune allows this to give Ardenweald a boon of souls, but they actually go to the maw.
    • N'zoth is defeated as direct result of Xal'atath being freed during the invasion of Azeroth by the Legion.
    • Sylvanas destroys the helm of domination. Allowing us to travel to the Shadowlands & destroy the Jailer.
    • Tyrande travels to the Maw & rescues the Night Elves who died during the burning of Teldrassil.
    • Elune gives Tyrande a new World Tree.
    • The Tree, being physically connected to all other World Trees through the dream, gives the Aspect's initial blessing back to them, restoring their powers.
    Elune has been playing the long game this whole time. That's how gods work. It's her plan & when it goes bad they can't claim to be her stalwart acolytes & suddenly take issue with it. Take your complaints up with her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    As the sylvanas novel showed she still has support of the majority of the horde even with Saurfang/Baine at the gates which Nathanos points out to her and wanting to know if they will turn on the horde after the battle.
    I guess you just forgot about the cinematic where all the major horde leaders (including Telanji for some insane reason, and excluding Gallywix) are discussing the actual battle that's going to happen. They're explicitly there to overthrow her, even if Sylvanas & Nathanos don't know that yet.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2023-09-11 at 04:13 PM.

  20. #16760
    I wouldn't be surprised if Chromatus is a secret final boss (dungeon? Vakthros?) and they tie his origin into Tys experiments somehow. Maybe the Chromatic were based on the experiments of the Silver Scale?

    Tyr wakes up, has a fit/moral debate with Alex and Vyranoth, leaves to finish his projects and make Dragonflight 3.0. We go there to stop what he made, he leaves to go assemble the Watchers and decide what to do with us
    Last edited by Cheezits; 2023-09-11 at 04:06 PM.

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