1. #17681
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Why would they demand Tyr stop infusing dragons with order magic when that hasn’t happened for ten thousand years when the dragon isle were locked away?
    I assume the current thought is that once brought back he's just going to go right back to attempting to order things, chiefly the rest of the un-ordered proto-dragons.

  2. #17682
    Epic! Pheraz's Avatar
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    I think Ion was a big fan of the last patch in BFA with the corruption of uldum and that panda zone. Speculating that I think 11.0 will feature a part revamp of EK and or kalimdor maybe it's that. Revamp but uh know the void attacks and the previous new things are about to be destroyed right away!!!
    But this kind of stands the opposite to the idea with the light and yrel.
    Oh god or they do some weird "mortals must bring balance between light and void" and we run around with fluffy little voidlings in the end @.@
    Zorn | Vynd | Pheraz | Sylwina | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - Plus 20 more...

  3. #17683
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    For me the fact that they went ahead and created the Tyr's Guard precludes Tyr being a villain. You could absolutely show a heroic backstory and still make him a villain but when you end up introducing the Guard, what is then the point? Especially when you have a class whose lore is deeply tied to Tyr.
    That said he doesn't have to be a friend either. He and Vyranoth could disagree strenuously, Alex takes her side, Tyr leaves for Ulduar and returns in a later (maybe the next) expansion alongside Odyn and the other Keepers, with them splitting in two groups and taking sides and Odyn getting the Villain role (while I'd expect Tyr, Mimiron and Freya to be on the other side)
    Maybe!

    I think we should expect a story that is epic and fairly easy to grasp, though. In part because Metzen us back, in part because they (hopefully) learned from Shadowlands, and lastly because this is a big "Spender" expansion like Legion and Shadowlands.

    Their opening cinematics were quite straightforward and focused on establishing the enemy's theme very clearly.

    Legion showed us Varian and Sylvanas boldly taking on the Burning Legion.

    Shadowlands showed us Sylvanas toppling the Lich King and opening the way for Death. The second cinematic showed us the Jailer in a menacing way.

    IIRC, Varian was featured heavily on Legion promotional material, but not the Gamescom key art. Sylvanas was featured on both for Shadowlands.

    I'd imagine the 11.0 cinematic shows us Azshara returning, darkness covering Azeroth, or something to that degree, and Thrall perhaps facing the enemy, or leading us to a new land?

  4. #17684
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    For me the fact that they went ahead and created the Tyr's Guard precludes Tyr being a villain. You could absolutely show a heroic backstory and still make him a villain but when you end up introducing the Guard, what is then the point? Especially when you have a class whose lore is deeply tied to Tyr.
    That said he doesn't have to be a friend either. He and Vyranoth could disagree strenuously, Alex takes her side, Tyr leaves for Ulduar and returns in a later (maybe the next) expansion alongside Odyn and the other Keepers, with them splitting in two groups and taking sides and Odyn getting the Villain role (while I'd expect Tyr, Mimiron and Freya to be on the other side)
    To me, I had an epiphany... Maybe the only reason Tyr even experimented and induced the Order on the dragons isn't to control, but that if he didn't then Odyn would've destroyed all the dragons from existence because they wouldn't comply.

    From that memory of Tyr we see, despite it being an illusion, Tyr has complete faith in the Aspects, so he isn't willing to go nuts if they go against him like Alexstraza with Vyranoth.

  5. #17685
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    if this is indeed classic+, i wonder what are the implications for retail. classic+ would basically be a reboot of the game. will wow end up split in 2 like runescape3 and osrs?

  6. #17686
    Stood in the Fire ImEveryCliche's Avatar
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    could be true bru

  7. #17687
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    New Moonkin customization is honestly pretty cool.
    https://twitter.com/keyboardturn/sta...220354/photo/1

    The new posture and animation also make it finally look like the force of nature it's supposed to be, rather than looking like a lobotomized chicken.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  8. #17688
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Titans who?

    Also: IT'S OVER @Super Dickmann
    I'm on a coping dialysis machine. Surely, they're empowered before the end patch because they have to actually get to use their powers. THey won't do a Firelands rerun without Dragon Soul 2.0 and punt the end boss, Deathwing 2.0, to the next expansion. They won't waste the good will of their content cadence up to this point by having a year-long lobby.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    For me the fact that they went ahead and created the Tyr's Guard precludes Tyr being a villain. You could absolutely show a heroic backstory and still make him a villain but when you end up introducing the Guard, what is then the point? Especially when you have a class whose lore is deeply tied to Tyr.
    That said he doesn't have to be a friend either. He and Vyranoth could disagree strenuously, Alex takes her side, Tyr leaves for Ulduar and returns in a later (maybe the next) expansion alongside Odyn and the other Keepers, with them splitting in two groups and taking sides and Odyn getting the Villain role (while I'd expect Tyr, Mimiron and Freya to be on the other side)
    The speculation about Tyr being a baddie I don't buy for a moment. Not just because he's been framed endlessly as a positive character with the negative aspects of the Titans punted off to other characters (chiefly Odyn, who's haunt we attack in 10.2), but more importantly because especially in DF, there's no personal loss, physical injury, milennia-old grudge or fundamnetal disagreement in ideas that can't be resolved by shaking hands and agreeing to settle on a limp middle ground. Happened to Vyranoth, happened to the Infinites, will happen to Tyr, if that.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2023-09-16 at 09:00 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  9. #17689
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'm on a coping dialysis machine. Surely, they're empowered before the end patch because they have to actually get to use their powers. THey won't do a Firelands rerun without Dragon Soul 2.0 and punt the end boss, Deathwing 2.0, to the next expansion. They won't waste the good will of their content cadence up to this point by having a year-long lobby.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The speculation about Tyr being a baddie I don't buy for a moment. Not just because he's been framed endlessly as a positive character with the negative aspects of the Titans punted off to other characters (chiefly Odyn, who's haunt we attack in 10.2), but more importantly because especially in DF, there's no personal loss, physical injury, milennia-old grudge or fundamnetal disagreement in ideas that can't be resolved by shaking hands and agreeing to settle on a limp middle ground. Happened to Vyranoth, happened to the Infinites, will happen to Tyr, if that.
    I still think Tyr will be the baddie. Not because I'm not cynical about the storytelling chops of big storylines like these, but because it's a basic storytelling trope. Abdi f we can't trust basic storytelling then what can we trust?
    Tyr being revived doesn't do anything for the plot beyond him being resurrected, so what is the point of spending so much time on it if he isn't actually going to do anything?
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #17690
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I still think Tyr will be the baddie. Not because I'm not cynical about the storytelling chops of big storylines like these, but because it's a basic storytelling trope. Abdi f we can't trust basic storytelling then what can we trust?
    Tyr being revived doesn't do anything for the plot beyond him being resurrected, so what is the point of spending so much time on it if he isn't actually going to do anything?
    Laughs in Bolvar. Also, it's pretty obvious that from a storytelling perspective the real Tyr is the friends we made along the way. The point of the quest is that after all this time spent trying to get him back up so he can empower and guide the aspects he'll pop up after they've already gone on their separate flight arcs (except Alex lol) and have been empowered by their collective efforts guarding the tree and go "Wow, you've grown so much more without my guidance, this is why I put you in charge and didn't leave it to robots like Odyn".
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  11. #17691
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I still think Tyr will be the baddie. Not because I'm not cynical about the storytelling chops of big storylines like these, but because it's a basic storytelling trope. Abdi f we can't trust basic storytelling then what can we trust?
    Tyr being revived doesn't do anything for the plot beyond him being resurrected, so what is the point of spending so much time on it if he isn't actually going to do anything?
    I mean, I am sure several people have explained what reviving Tyr does. It allows him to explain to the Aspects how to become Aspects again (that was how the expansion started after all) and it allows for Tyr to lead into a new arc related to Uldaz which should appear during this expansion (cause otherwise why the Hammer?)
    But I don't expect to convince you cause you are married to that plot by this point.

  12. #17692
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean, I am sure several people have explained what reviving Tyr does. It allows him to explain to the Aspects how to become Aspects again (that was how the expansion started after all) and it allows for Tyr to lead into a new arc related to Uldaz which should appear during this expansion (cause otherwise why the Hammer?)
    This is another point to bring home, bringing back Tyr as a prominent keeper gives a direct Titan representative for Iridikron to bounce off and a pivot from titans as B plot in a dragon expansion to dragons as a B plot to titans for the next expansion patch.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  13. #17693
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Laughs in Bolvar. Also, it's pretty obvious that from a storytelling perspective the real Tyr is the friends we made along the way. The point of the quest is that after all this time spent trying to get him back up so he can empower and guide the aspects he'll pop up after they've already gone on their separate flight arcs (except Alex lol) and have been empowered by their collective efforts guarding the tree and go "Wow, you've grown so much more without my guidance, this is why I put you in charge and didn't leave it to robots like Odyn".
    Can you imagine how boring that will be? All the foreshadowing thrown into the trash, and all the time spent on learning about Tyrs shady activities wasting away into nothing.

    The possibility of no 10.3 is really throwing a wrench into the big questions surrounding DF.
    I guess the only question is if it's a worse storytelling flub than BfA. Which is worse, an unfinished plot because the expansion ended, or an unfinished plot because the main villain left and we are stuck with a different plot for the finale?
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #17694
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Can you imagine how boring that will be?
    Nothing more boring than subverting expectation just so you can subvert expectations.

  15. #17695
    Quote Originally Posted by Revamp Man View Post
    Is it possible xal is gathering forces from multiple power sources?
    Like xal is void
    Azshara is arcane which is order (I get she was twisted by nzoth but she still uses arcane)
    Iridikron is up in the air because earth is connected to life
    If she has Denathrius that's death
    She's just missing light and disorder which one can assume disorder was either from the sword or a future ally
    Light can be lothraxion because we know he's still a traitor


    What if the first ones locked away this mystical 7th force and a key holding all of the other cosmic forces is required to release it
    Oh man, I really hope they don’t waste Denathrius and Azshara in a Sinister Six styled expansion. Both have the legs to be mult expansion spanning villains as well as the potential for our first enemy turned reluctant ally before they inevitably turn on us again, in the expansion’s Khadgar/Bolvar/Magni/Illidan/Alex role.

  16. #17696
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Nothing more boring than subverting expectation just so you can subvert expectations.
    "Haha, you thought this was going to lead somewhere, but in truth we have subverted your expectations! This plotpoint is actually entirely pointless and has not moved the plot at all!"
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #17697
    I imagine Tyr's activities and whatever Alexstrasza feels about them is Blizzard's new way of telling a story in a not so "black and white" way. And hopefully not because they want to go like:

    Tyr: "I AM EVUL NOW! MWAHAHAHAHA...HA...HA..."

  18. #17698
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is another point to bring home, bringing back Tyr as a prominent keeper gives a direct Titan representative for Iridikron to bounce off and a pivot from titans as B plot in a dragon expansion to dragons as a B plot to titans for the next expansion patch.
    On whether it has to be a patch I will say this
    Not all major plot points need to be revealed in a raid.
    WoW has done this forever. Until it stopped. The major plot of the 10.1.X cycle was not Aberrus but rather Dawn of the Infinite. The real impactful story of the patch was saving Nozdormu and finding out what Iridikron plans (well to some extent), not Sarkareth.
    So perhaps there is a major plot point that happens AFTER Amirdrassil but within the 10.2.X cycle. It could happen in a dungeon we know nothing about till now. It could happen in some new game mode like Visions they are adding in 10.2.5 that uses Uldaz. What it needs imo is to be repeatable and accessible (have an easy mode)

    On why it should be repeatable; because this is a game and you should be able to get some gameplay out of the story or else what is the use of it. The genre limits the story and it will have to be shallow regardless so it should at least provide us with some action. ESO does this stupid thing where you kill gods at the end of questlines and the story absolutely works but the gameplay experience is miserable because it is part of the quest and thus it cannot have difficulties and ends up being ridiculously simple.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-09-16 at 09:41 AM.

  19. #17699
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Can you imagine how boring that will be? All the foreshadowing thrown into the trash, and all the time spent on learning about Tyrs shady activities wasting away into nothing.
    Yes, considerably boring. That said, the point of the questline is for the Aspects to retrace their steps and reintroduce Tyr into the MMO, and the constant delays to it as the Aspects nevertheless solve their problems of their own accord is to build up to a "The answer was in your heart all along" reveal. It's a pretty standard plot route.

    As for whether it's worse than BFA in terms of plot structure, no, in as much as the plot is coherent. Things advance from Point A to Point B. If it outsources its conclusion to the next expansion then at least the steps to it have followed from each other. There's no "God of the depths in the naval expansion is fought on dry land in a volcano" tier of disconnect. There's no beats like NPCs archly talking about how the Bad Lady will burn Thunder Bluff, but it won't if they all stand together, only for the Bad Lady to never bring it up and the entire rebellion to form off-screen in a cutscene, then teleporting to the end point for another cutscene.

    @Nymrohd

    If it's not major content, i.e a replayable dungeon or raid, it's a cop out. Even if the plot turn comes after the raid and the raid isn't the ultimate resolution, the instance is the vehicle for it. You only need to look at BFA outsourcing its main plot beat to five quests and a fucking cinematic in an otherwise empty patch. The gameplay and reasoning of WoW means that major plot beats happen in raids. Aberrus is a good example of that. It doesn't move the Iridikron plot forward, he explicitly doesn't care about the place, but it clears the B-tier villains and is core to the conclusion of the Black Dragonflight story and Deathwing, which are mandatory aspects of a dragon expansion.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2023-09-16 at 09:47 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  20. #17700
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, considerably boring. That said, the point of the questline is for the Aspects to retrace their steps and reintroduce Tyr into the MMO, and the constant delays to it as the Aspects nevertheless solve their problems of their own accord is to build up to a "The answer was in your heart all along" reveal. It's a pretty standard plot route.

    As for whether it's worse than BFA in terms of plot structure, no, in as much as the plot is coherent. Things advance from Point A to Point B. If it outsources its conclusion to the next expansion then at least the steps to it have followed from each other. There's no "God of the depths in the naval expansion is fought on dry land in a volcano" tier of disconnect.
    @Nymrohd

    If it's not major content, i.e a replayable dungeon or raid, then it remains a cop out. See also BFA outsourcing its main plot beat to five quests and a fucking cinematic in an otherwise empty patch. The gameplay and reasoning of WoW means that major plot beats happen in raids. Aberrus is a good example of that. It doesn't move the Iridikron plot forward, he explicitly doesn't care about the place, but it clears the B-tier villains and is core to the conclusion of the Black Dragonflight story and Deathwing, which are mandatory aspects of a dragon expansion.
    I could see it being a dungeon but the thing is, would it only enter M+ for the fate season? seems weird. Maybe a mini-raid.
    I will always want for them to create a new game mode that works solo or small group. They have done so many experiments in this format with Islands, Visions and Torghast and I just hope they can take all they learned from those and add something new. In the same way that M+ changed the way the game is played, instanced, repeatable, challenging and rewarding content that is available solo or for small groups is the next step. And if they are working for it for 11.0, they probably can demo it in 10.2.5

    I think Iridikron's plot can be resolved later and that is not a problem. They told us what he is planning and we will find out when the Harbinger is close to getting that done because Magni will pop up and tell us. Could be now, could be in the next xpac, could be even later.

    And I will always dream of BfA ending in Siege of Stormwind with both factions joining up to fight N'zoth at the Stormwind Docks.

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