1. #18021
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    Something important to note is that it wasn't just Metzen that left in 2016. Micky Neilson, who had been involved with the story since WC1, left a few months prior to Metzen. Dave Kosak, who was effectively Danuser's predecessor as Lead Narrative Designer since Cataclysm, left to join the Hearthstone team in November. The swerve in tone and direction from BfA onwards makes more sense in that context, it was quite a changing of the guard.
    But BfA and prolly the start of Shadowlands was still Afrasiabis' work. You can't blame the current team for that lol.

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  2. #18022
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Probably due to a belief that the average consumer cares more about emotional character drama than politics, grandiose events, etc. Don't have data to back that up but would definitely explain most of the cinematics in Legion/BFA/SL/DF being characters talking.
    I think Legion was balanced in this regard because it had everything. We had lots of dialogue, but every cinematic also covered a major event, like Kil'jaeden shit-talking Sargeras and then starting the invasion in the same cinematic, followed by Velen and Kil'jaeden talking in Tomb and ending with Illidan opening the way to Argus. Then we have Velen and Illidan talking before the Argus invasion, followed by a blow into Velen's faith as Xenedar gets hit and falls from the sky.

    Anyway, it's just my 2 cents.

  3. #18023
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I think Legion was balanced in this regard because it had everything. We had lots of dialogue, but every cinematic also covered a major event, like Kil'jaeden shit-talking Sargeras and then starting the invasion in the same cinematic, followed by Velen and Kil'jaeden talking in Tomb and ending with Illidan opening the way to Argus. Then we have Velen and Illidan talking before the Argus invasion, followed by a blow into Velen's faith as Xenedar gets hit and falls from the sky.

    Anyway, it's just my 2 cents.
    Yeah I think part of the problem is that they stopping doing the future patch lead-ins in favor of spoiler/hype culture. Like they couldn't at least show us the Dream zone literally two days before the PTR dropped?

  4. #18024
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    But BfA and prolly the start of Shadowlands was still Afrasiabis' work. You can't blame the current team for that lol.
    Afrasiabi wasn't the sole writer in charge, as Kosak wasn't before nor Danuser after. Metzen himself wasn't even technically on the WoW team; he was Vice President of Creative Development at Blizzard and had his hands full with every franchise as Lorgar noted. I don't exclude Afrasiabi from the faults of the writing at all, but Danuser was already Senior Narrative Designer by October 2017, and then Lead Narrative Designer by May 2019. He was hardly in a helpless role at the time, and the writing hasn't seen a seismic shift away from what we've seen in SL to suggest Afrasiabi held the reins alone.

  5. #18025
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    But BfA and prolly the start of Shadowlands was still Afrasiabis' work. You can't blame the current team for that lol.
    I actually liked the narrative direction of BFA until the whole Nzoth stuff happened and it was fairly gritty compared to what we have gotten since.

  6. #18026
    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    Something important to note is that it wasn't just Metzen that left in 2016. Micky Neilson, who had been involved with the story since WC1, left a few months prior to Metzen. Dave Kosak, who was effectively Danuser's predecessor as Lead Narrative Designer since Cataclysm, left to join the Hearthstone team in November. The swerve in tone and direction from BfA onwards makes more sense in that context, it was quite a changing of the guard.
    I remember Kosak. I miss his excitement, but I wasn't aware of the other guy (Micky Neilson).

    This reinforces the feeling of a change in storytelling direction.

  7. #18027
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    I actually liked the narrative direction of BFA until the whole Nzoth stuff happened and it was fairly gritty compared to what we have gotten since.
    At least it swung big. It was problematic in so many ways but it was anything but boring.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Probably due to a belief that the average consumer cares more about emotional character drama than politics, grandiose events, etc. Don't have data to back that up but would definitely explain most of the cinematics in Legion/BFA/SL/DF being characters talking.
    A heartwarming scene works if it follows or precedes an epic moment because it either builts the stakes or releases the tension. But by itself . . .

  8. #18028
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I think Legion was balanced in this regard because it had everything. We had lots of dialogue, but every cinematic also covered a major event, like Kil'jaeden shit-talking Sargeras and then starting the invasion in the same cinematic, followed by Velen and Kil'jaeden talking in Tomb and ending with Illidan opening the way to Argus. Then we have Velen and Illidan talking before the Argus invasion, followed by a blow into Velen's faith as Xenedar gets hit and falls from the sky.

    Anyway, it's just my 2 cents.
    I think Legion was just a very easy expansion to write for. The tone is right up WoWs alley, what with all the rule of cool and weird designs.
    It could also defer a lot of the heavier stuff to nostalgia, or simply onto character who would be dead momentarily. They didn't have to consider Kil'haeden much as a character since he simply showed up, then "immediately" died in the raid.

    Many of the other stories more tangential to the whole Legion shtick were not that good. Sylvanas being evil in Stormheim for instance.
    Many of the other good stuff in Legion played to its strengths. Big emotions in the Anduin questline. Gul'dan being hammy. Skovald proving his worth to Odyn. Etc.

    Everything with Velen was great as well though, and that was more subtle.
    Don't know why storylines centered around Velen are so good. Maybe there is a writer who just really feels him, and has written all the questlines with him since then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Yeah I think part of the problem is that they stopping doing the future patch lead-ins in favor of spoiler/hype culture. Like they couldn't at least show us the Dream zone literally two days before the PTR dropped?
    That was mostly just Argus in the sky of Azeroth though. And I don't see how you could do something similar to the Dream. We already have Emerald Dream zones, and the Dreamsurges are giving us the Emerald tint on everything.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  9. #18029
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That was mostly just Argus in the sky of Azeroth though. And I don't see how you could do something similar to the Dream. We already have Emerald Dream zones, and the Dreamsurges are giving us the Emerald tint on everything.
    Dreamsurges are imo suffering from the same thing that time rifts. They are just minimum effort. Like, I see portals to the waking dream around the zone. Why not have us able to use those portals to phase to a burning area of the dream that is a staging area for the druids? I mean they clearly are coming from somewhere. They had to build the assets for the fire areas anyway for the following patch.

    It's content that is meant to be relevant for 4-8 weeks so it gets the proportional effort I suppose.

  10. #18030
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Dreamsurges are imo suffering from the same thing that time rifts. They are just minimum effort. Like, I see portals to the waking dream around the zone. Why not have us able to use those portals to phase to a burning area of the dream that is a staging area for the druids? I mean they clearly are coming from somewhere. They had to build the assets for the fire areas anyway for the following patch.

    It's content that is meant to be relevant for 4-8 weeks so it gets the proportional effort I suppose.
    Personally I wonder why Dreamsurges doesn't affect all content in the zone. Specifically the zone specific content like Dragonbane Keep Sieges in Waking Shore, or the Aylaag quests in Ohn'ahra plains. Nor do I get why the rares couldn't also just drop their regular drops at an item level appropriate for the patch. Sure it would probably lead to some OP combinations, but the items will be obsolete soon anyways.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #18031
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Personally I wonder why Dreamsurges doesn't affect all content in the zone. Specifically the zone specific content like Dragonbane Keep Sieges in Waking Shore, or the Aylaag quests in Ohn'ahra plains. Nor do I get why the rares couldn't also just drop their regular drops at an item level appropriate for the patch. Sure it would probably lead to some OP combinations, but the items will be obsolete soon anyways.
    At least have them drop in Veteran quality or something. And given we are going to the next patch, Champion would be better so they might even be useful.

  12. #18032
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Every person in Blizzard is always the worst thing to ever happen to an artistic medium. That is, until they leave, at which point they become the only reasonable voice holding back the tide of shit.
    Metzen is no exception. Stories were sometimes good, sometimes shit back when he was in charge, same as they are now.
    Sometimes you got Stonetalon Mountains. Sometimes you got Thrall's wedding.
    Sometimes in current expansions you get the Orc Heritage questline or Drustvar. Sometimes you get Siege of Dazar'alor.
    I'd say the biggest change since Metzen left is that we get way more cinematics. That tended to be a once per Expansion thing.

  13. #18033
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    I usually like Bel's content but that video, oh boy, is just full of toxic masculinity. Dragonflight is the best Expansion since Legion, and easily on par with MoP, but all he does is crying about it being not "brutal enough" and how guys would have prefered the ugly Draconids instead of the Dracthyr? WoW doesn't need to change "direction", it's already on the right track, all they need is a nostalgia bait expansion to bring back a mass of players similiar to WoD/Shadowlands (which had a huge number of new/returning players but didn't manage to retain them unlike Dragonflight).
    Not sure whether it's about "toxic masculinity", but I do agree with Bellular actually.

    Especially with the idea, that in recent years, storytelling went the "tell, don't show" path. It's very apparent in dialogs for example - sometimes when new strings are datamined, it makes me cringe a little. It usually goes like this: "Oh no! The Dream has finally been attacked. We are the Green Dragonflight, the Defenders of the Dream, and so we must protect our home!". Obviously, it never goes like this, it's an exaggeration on my side, but the lack of character in dialogs is just ubiquitous. It's almost like if Blizzard was afraid, that players are too stupid to uncover the nuances for themselves - well, they are not.

    Also, I do believe that the strongest driving force for curosity is the excitment about unknown. I prefer the mysticism around cosmology - gods, titans, creators. Once Blizzard started meddling with that stuff, it all fell apart for me. I'm no longer interested in titans, nor void lords (probably that's why I don't like the idea of Light vs. Void expansion). Even the concept of Elune lost it's power in my eyes. Her being represented by Moon in elvish culture or stuff like that pushed my creativity to limits, when I was fantasizing as a kid of what she might be and how powerful she is. I loved the idea that she's somehow connected to Earth Mother, and that these cultures (taurens and elves) actually have something in common, but just name it differently (an analogy to religions or something).

    It all disappeared, I'd say, with Argus. Since then, it was just a downhill, with a jewel in crown in the form of Zereth Mortis stuff.

    Same with Dragonflight. English is not my native language, so as a kid I didn't understand much, but I knew that Nozdormu is the time-guy, and I felt some sort of weird respect to him. Not really talkative one, but damn, he's awesome. Alexstrasza - freaking queen of the dragons - holy molly, so cool. She seems to be resolute and wise beyond anything. And boom - Dragonflight comes and she's actually the most boring character of them all. Pathethic, indecisive, lacking any character. It doesn't sell "the other side of personality" well.

    And the last thing that boggles me a lot, is the omnipotence of these characters, They always have some grand plan that stretches over, I don't know, 2 or more expansions? just to be revealed as a total lucklaster. They never lack any knowledge, they are never in a need of crucial information. They just know.
    How cool would it be if the whole Nozdormu storyline revolved around Incarnates trying to access some knowledge that he keeps hidden from them, rather than Iridkron siphoning some random void stuff from Galakrond? If we had story bits here and there, and eventually it all came into a single picture that makes a lot of sense in the end?

    I don't know, maybe it's my preference, but I do agree with Bellular's take a lot

  14. #18034
    Franchise needs violence is the beginning and end of it. Without some of the old ultraviolence, hostility between alignable factions everything else is hot air. It's why Kosak had the pulse of what was needed while Metzen was writing SC2. He understood this most basic requirement of it. DF is perfectly functional and its tone is fine in isolation, but it's not a long-term replicable direction. World peace, unifaction, etc. all transitory and ultimately doomed. At this stage of the franchise's lifecycle, attraction is mostly a lost cause, you're playing reclaiming and maintaing interest, the former done via theme and imagery, the latter via content cadence.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  15. #18035
    Elemental Lord
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    Wrath and Legion were payoff expansions with proper build up (Wrath in Frozen Throne and Naxxramas, Legion in MoP and WoD), simple as that. And by they way, look at last speculation thread and look what people wanted - down to earth, 'peace' expansion, people were even whining Raszageth is too much and we are saving world again. Of course it's not as exciting as "end of world" expansion, but again, you can't have that without build up.

    Imo only Shadowlands had potential to be another payoff expac, but for that they would have to be consistent both in BfA and SL. First BfA was half war and half old god expac (and war plot get less and less attention every patch), then in SL they teased interesing motivation for Jailer and Sylvanas only to make Sylvanas idiot in 9.1 and making Jailor goal boring domination of all being to.. oh yeah, it wasn't even explained why he want to do that.

    I liked 'landmark' style to show us story progression in Legion and SL, don't see potential for this in DF. It could be tree manifesting into world, but after they straight up said it will be new Nelf home and confirmed revamp, pretty obvious Tree will be somewhere closer to old continents.

  16. #18036
    People think they do, but they don't. The same people now writing novels about how SL was a betrayal of down to earth bear-ass hunting expansions were writing about how the factions were done and it was time to go to space. What they actually want is something that can be invested in in a practical sense, i.e factions. There's a reason the only thing that causes more than academic interest in what is otherwise a perfectly functional isolated narrative in DF is the next stage of the insufferable night elf tree drama.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  17. #18037
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    People think they do, but they don't. The same people now writing novels about how SL was a betrayal of down to earth bear-ass hunting expansions were writing about how the factions were done and it was time to go to space. What they actually want is something that can be invested in in a practical sense, i.e factions. There's a reason the only thing that causes more than academic interest in what is otherwise a perfectly functional isolated narrative in DF is the next stage of the insufferable night elf tree drama.
    Ironically there should be no drama because it's obvious the tree will be fine. If anything the drama should be about whether the new city will be on the tree or on the ground.

  18. #18038
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Ironically there should be no drama because it's obvious the tree will be fine. If anything the drama should be about whether the new city will be on the tree or on the ground.
    The drama isn't about the tree, it's about whether there's enough blood money paid despite night elf content being in every expansion and there being more quests taken by the Horde player from Shandris than there is from any single faction leader of theirs.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  19. #18039
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The drama isn't about the tree, it's about whether there's enough blood money paid despite night elf content being in every expansion and there being more quests taken by the Horde player from Shandris than there is from any single faction leader of theirs.
    Lol, didn't think about this until now. I'm on board with no more faction wars, but god it's stale having factions completely ignored.

  20. #18040
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    People think they do, but they don't. The same people now writing novels about how SL was a betrayal of down to earth bear-ass hunting expansions were writing about how the factions were done and it was time to go to space. What they actually want is something that can be invested in in a practical sense, i.e factions. There's a reason the only thing that causes more than academic interest in what is otherwise a perfectly functional isolated narrative in DF is the next stage of the insufferable night elf tree drama.
    That sounds more like you're projecting your own personal wants on everybody else, to be honest.

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