1. #18041
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebron View Post
    Not sure whether it's about "toxic masculinity", but I do agree with Bellular actually.

    Especially with the idea, that in recent years, storytelling went the "tell, don't show" path. It's very apparent in dialogs for example - sometimes when new strings are datamined, it makes me cringe a little. It usually goes like this: "Oh no! The Dream has finally been attacked. We are the Green Dragonflight, the Defenders of the Dream, and so we must protect our home!". Obviously, it never goes like this, it's an exaggeration on my side, but the lack of character in dialogs is just ubiquitous. It's almost like if Blizzard was afraid, that players are too stupid to uncover the nuances for themselves - well, they are not.

    Also, I do believe that the strongest driving force for curosity is the excitment about unknown. I prefer the mysticism around cosmology - gods, titans, creators. Once Blizzard started meddling with that stuff, it all fell apart for me. I'm no longer interested in titans, nor void lords (probably that's why I don't like the idea of Light vs. Void expansion). Even the concept of Elune lost it's power in my eyes. Her being represented by Moon in elvish culture or stuff like that pushed my creativity to limits, when I was fantasizing as a kid of what she might be and how powerful she is. I loved the idea that she's somehow connected to Earth Mother, and that these cultures (taurens and elves) actually have something in common, but just name it differently (an analogy to religions or something).

    It all disappeared, I'd say, with Argus. Since then, it was just a downhill, with a jewel in crown in the form of Zereth Mortis stuff.

    Same with Dragonflight. English is not my native language, so as a kid I didn't understand much, but I knew that Nozdormu is the time-guy, and I felt some sort of weird respect to him. Not really talkative one, but damn, he's awesome. Alexstrasza - freaking queen of the dragons - holy molly, so cool. She seems to be resolute and wise beyond anything. And boom - Dragonflight comes and she's actually the most boring character of them all. Pathethic, indecisive, lacking any character. It doesn't sell "the other side of personality" well.

    And the last thing that boggles me a lot, is the omnipotence of these characters, They always have some grand plan that stretches over, I don't know, 2 or more expansions? just to be revealed as a total lucklaster. They never lack any knowledge, they are never in a need of crucial information. They just know.
    How cool would it be if the whole Nozdormu storyline revolved around Incarnates trying to access some knowledge that he keeps hidden from them, rather than Iridkron siphoning some random void stuff from Galakrond? If we had story bits here and there, and eventually it all came into a single picture that makes a lot of sense in the end?

    I don't know, maybe it's my preference, but I do agree with Bellular's take a lot
    The other big issue is that they write these characters in what they think would work in a novel, like say several books focusing on Sylvanas where we get a deep dive into her history and psyche.... but that doesn't translate well into a video game (or at least not in an MMORPG like WoW) The same is happening to Alexstraza, where she was a mysterious being prior to DF... but when DF comes around they probably had an idea for how she acts in the next novel coming "War of the Scaleborn" and they have to reflect her character to match what was written.

    In other words, the characterization is built specifically for the novel, and the game second. That's just my viewpoint about it.

  2. #18042
    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    The other big issue is that they write these characters in what they think would work in a novel, like say several books focusing on Sylvanas where we get a deep dive into her history and psyche.... but that doesn't translate well into a video game (or at least not in an MMORPG like WoW) The same is happening to Alexstraza, where she was a mysterious being prior to DF... but when DF comes around they probably had an idea for how she acts in the next novel coming "War of the Scaleborn" and they have to reflect her character to match what was written.

    In other words, the characterization is built specifically for the novel, and the game second. That's just my viewpoint about it.
    I think this makes a lot of sense.

  3. #18043
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebron View Post
    Not sure whether it's about "toxic masculinity", but I do agree with Bellular actually.

    Especially with the idea, that in recent years, storytelling went the "tell, don't show" path. It's very apparent in dialogs for example - sometimes when new strings are datamined, it makes me cringe a little. It usually goes like this: "Oh no! The Dream has finally been attacked. We are the Green Dragonflight, the Defenders of the Dream, and so we must protect our home!". Obviously, it never goes like this, it's an exaggeration on my side, but the lack of character in dialogs is just ubiquitous. It's almost like if Blizzard was afraid, that players are too stupid to uncover the nuances for themselves - well, they are not.
    This isn't "in recent years". Characters have always done this.

  4. #18044
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Lmaooo the fact y'all believe that shit is hilarious...
    I'm sure they had a good intention and tried to salvage the story without making jarring changes to the storyline he'd helped plan after his leave that would upset players.

    In hindsight, they should of just pulled the trigger and 180'd the storyline. I'd have rather had that instead of what we got in BFA and Shadowlands I think.

    One of my blizzard pet peeves is this weird pretense they and many other company's use where they pretend everything is going exactly to plan. A little humility and honesty can go for miles with your fan base as seen with FF. I wish for once they would learn a little from that.
    Last edited by Nibelheimy; 2023-09-19 at 03:52 AM.

  5. #18045
    What are some of your wishes for 11.0 that make you all giddy and excited?

    For me, just seeing Metzen announce a WoW expansion again will feel so great. I really became a fan of his announcements beginning with Cataclysm, so this will feel like a return to form in that regard (I still miss Ben Brode's announcer voice and Mike Morhaime's geeky but heartfelt welcome speech though).

    But regarding the expansion itself, I'd prefer "not just another new island", I think. New continents are fun to explore due to how unknown they are, but given how we've pretty much ran out of established locations from the lore to explore, finding a new one might feel a little less impactful this time around.

    So a big world revamp is what I want, and to be able to see some favourite locations in new light. What would an updated Elwynn forest look like? How would the music of Ashenvale hit if it was rewritten, and the forest used all those WSG assets? What's it like in Feralas when there's a storm, and what does the night sky look like above Dun Morough? I'm guessing "great" on all of these.

    Hopefully a lot of casual and evergreen world content comes with a revamp. More focus on fishing and gathering. Improved professions. More variety in the events we get.

    I want a return of established characters and factions, but I'd also like them become a bit more stationary and "godlike" again, like in Vanilla when you could meet Tyrande and Malfurion in Darnassus. Let other characters grow with this in mind. We don't always have to use Shandris as a Night Elf questgiver. Some up and coming Sentinel is fine too.

    I'd like to see more features added, simply put. A lot feels missing right now. Mage Tower, Brawler's Guild, borrowed power systems, you name it. A lot was taken from us, but not much was given to replace it. More ways to feel engaged with the expansion and my character's progress.

    A second character model revamp after WoD would be much appreciated, so we have more viable face options, better hairstyles, new poses perhaps, etc. Additional voices?

    I'd like less inventory clutter, and more account-wide currencies.

    Lastly, I want something colourful and exciting we haven't seen before. I think a new take on the Elemental Planes could be it. This could be a feature like the Heart of Azeroth or Artifact weapons. Some type of Elemental empowerment, perhaps?

    Oh, and as we take on the Void, I dearly hope Blizzard nails the story delivery for once. It's been really rough for the past few expansions. I want big, bombastic and emotional story moments, that Warcraft was once known for.
    Last edited by Worldshaper; 2023-09-19 at 04:59 AM.

  6. #18046
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    I usually like Bel's content but that video, oh boy, is just full of toxic masculinity. Dragonflight is the best Expansion since Legion, and easily on par with MoP, but all he does is crying about it being not "brutal enough" and how guys would have prefered the ugly Draconids instead of the Dracthyr? WoW doesn't need to change "direction", it's already on the right track, all they need is a nostalgia bait expansion to bring back a mass of players similiar to WoD/Shadowlands (which had a huge number of new/returning players but didn't manage to retain them unlike Dragonflight).
    Toxic masculinity - what on earth!? What does that have to do with Dracthyr being too slender and the game not being brutal enough. Absolutely wild take that you shouldn’t be throwing around so lightly.

  7. #18047
    Epic! Pheraz's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Feralas, Mount Hyal, Quel'Danil Lodge
    Posts
    1,675
    Let's be honest the current stories are too much about those "old friend" stuff and every main lore char is basically super female stereotyped even the blue aspect. Nothing against anything female, not at all world would be horrible without, but in DF it's just a bit too much for a balanced feeling. And it feels too much like I'm watching a soap opera.
    I really hope that the lore team manages to get away from this trend in the next xpac. Just a little bit less friendship is magic vibes
    Zorn | Vynd | Pheraz | Sylwina | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - Plus 20 more...

  8. #18048
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    Let's be honest the current stories are too much about those "old friend" stuff and every main lore char is basically super female stereotyped even the blue aspect. Nothing against anything female, not at all world would be horrible without, but in DF it's just a bit too much for a balanced feeling. And it feels too much like I'm watching a soap opera.
    I really hope that the lore team manages to get away from this trend in the next xpac. Just a little bit less friendship is magic vibes


    For that to happen, Blizzard has to fire "team B" (betas) devs.

    They are the ones responsible for f*ckfest story in SL and DF so far.

    And the poor quality world design/building overall.

    It's been proven since late BFA and all the scandals that happened back then. Or that got revealed*

  9. #18049
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    Toxic masculinity - what on earth!? What does that have to do with Dracthyr being too slender and the game not being brutal enough. Absolutely wild take that you shouldn’t be throwing around so lightly.
    Honestly I can only agree this was a weird take to say the least using the cringe term that is toxic masuclinity in 2023, we're way past that era now.

    But I will say this, honestly, it wont hurt gaming to go back to some air of masucline fantasy and warcraft is fundamentally a as Asmongold once said a game built around "big sweaty men" which frankly is fine if at least one expansion is filled with them.

    In the last 3 expansions the game has been very much more focused on its female aspect leadership and character cast, tbh, I have no issue with the next expansion being a bro trip again.

  10. #18050
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    In the last 3 expansions the game has been very much more focused on its female aspect leadership and character cast, tbh, I have no issue with the next expansion being a bro trip again.
    I agree with this, but sadly in current world if you're a man saying something like that, you know that someone will try to put you into "toxic masculinity" box, but fuck it.

    I don't like asmongold, but i think from time to time having big sweaty men doing badass heroic stuff(doesn't even have to be only men, have some cool feisty warrior ladies go at it too), roaring and charging furiously into battles and such is cool, especially in wow like it was in the past, having this weird but cool "rockstar" grit to it.

    Nowadays many things that are written seem very "soft" even they try to be more "edgy'ier" and i have to mention the writing way of having vague things happening on top of other vague scenarios that eventually will unveil even more vague story.

    I feel very indifferent when it comes to DF story, but it's done better when it comes to being a little more direct than BFA and SL, but i hope next expansion actually will actually come back to some of the things they were doing in the past and actually having very direct way of storytelling, where we just go and kick some big baddies asses.

    EDIT: Also wanted to add one more thing - i know they've been doing it for a long time when it comes to VA - but they should let characters talk more "normally", no crazy amount of dramatic pauses during dialogues that eventually makes whole conversation seem like they only used like 10 actual words..
    Last edited by ImTheMizAwesome; 2023-09-19 at 06:56 AM.

  11. #18051
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    1,155
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    -snip-


    I don't understand this take, have you been playing the game?


    The centaur zone main questline is about as textbook "masculine warcraft" as you can get that culminates in fighting a big bad guy, several of them actually.

    The dungeon for this zone is your group literally charging into an active battle-field by dragonback, slaughtering an army, and conquering a stronghold after killing their leader.

    The blue-dragon questline is all about the causalities of war and borderline extinction and how even death wasn't a release for some people, that's pretty dark and it was written in a very serious and sad manner.

    Zaraleck Caverns shows us Sarkareth throwing away the lives of his loyal warriors to advance his own gains and has us fighting failed experiments who are still alive in endless agony to reach him.



    Yes Dragonflight has a lot of lighthearted Disney-esque moments, some are even a bit over the top (Algathar Academy comes to mind,) but there are plenty of grimdark moments too that aren't buried under subtext and are quite frequent.

    I feel like in order to call Dragonflight "not warcraft feeling" you have to be pretty detached from the game. If anything I find the way they do worldbuilding way more satisfying now as a player than how it was back then.

    You actually feel like your character's strength and prowess actively make a difference in the world, in the past no matter who you killed or how strong you were everything was still permanently stuck in a limbo of misery which was boring.

    I quite enjoy seeing the denizens of the Isles being able to breathe and chill a bit due to us quelling most of the baddies threatening them, also helps to add personality to the characters outside of military skills.


    I won't even touch the gender stuff because its awkward to read and I sincerely doubt anyone here is capable of a nuanced discussion regarding it lol.
    Honorary member of the Baine Fanclub, the only member really.

  12. #18052
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I think this makes a lot of sense.
    And it isn't a good idea take this approach video game storytelling is because not every player is gonna buy and read every novel they put out. Which is why we don't see much of those kinds of quests like in Icecrown where we see visions of Arthas's past and we play out how he gradually becomes the Lich King the longer he spends in Northrend.

    When you want to tell a story in a video game, the presentation is the biggest factor at play. Instead of wondering how a character feels... you experience what they experience. Like imagine a whole questline where we go through ropes of why Sylvanas made a deal with the Jailer or a questline where we have experience the War of the Scaleborn through Alexstraza's perspective in-game... and not through a book that we have to pay separately in order to get the full context.

    Edit: And I don't mean like what they did with Sylvanas in SL, but like every moment she "died" and saw the Jailer or every moment where she felt the Jailer's whisper in her mind. It wouldn't fix the Jailer, but it would at least help flesh out her character for why she is the way she is.
    Last edited by Woggmer; 2023-09-19 at 07:40 AM.

  13. #18053
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    I don't understand this take, have you been playing the game?


    The centaur zone main questline is about as textbook "masculine warcraft" as you can get that culminates in fighting a big bad guy, several of them actually.

    The dungeon for this zone is your group literally charging into an active battle-field by dragonback, slaughtering an army, and conquering a stronghold after killing their leader.

    The blue-dragon questline is all about the causalities of war and borderline extinction and how even death wasn't a release for some people, that's pretty dark and it was written in a very serious and sad manner.

    Zaraleck Caverns shows us Sarkareth throwing away the lives of his loyal warriors to advance his own gains and has us fighting failed experiments who are still alive in endless agony to reach him.



    Yes Dragonflight has a lot of lighthearted Disney-esque moments, some are even a bit over the top (Algathar Academy comes to mind,) but there are plenty of grimdark moments too that aren't buried under subtext and are quite frequent.

    I feel like in order to call Dragonflight "not warcraft feeling" you have to be pretty detached from the game. If anything I find the way they do worldbuilding way more satisfying now as a player than how it was back then.

    You actually feel like your character's strength and prowess actively make a difference in the world, in the past no matter who you killed or how strong you were everything was still permanently stuck in a limbo of misery which was boring.

    I quite enjoy seeing the denizens of the Isles being able to breathe and chill a bit due to us quelling most of the baddies threatening them, also helps to add personality to the characters outside of military skills.


    I won't even touch the gender stuff because its awkward to read and I sincerely doubt anyone here is capable of a nuanced discussion regarding it lol.
    And have you read my post? Yes i do play the game, on a break atm but i played a good chunk of DF, thanks to gameplay design - no the worldbuilding or story in most cases.

    Everything you said here i already mentioned in this line - "Nowadays many things that are written seem very "soft" even when they try to be more "edgy'ier"

    "I feel like in order to call Dragonflight "not warcraft feeling" you have to be pretty detached from the game." - The problem with dragonflight is not it not having "the warcraft feeling", it doesn't have any feeling at least to me, because storywise it feels like a big therapy session that they're trying to tell instead of actually captivating story with badass moments, characters doing cool shit instead of constantly showing this weird "self-insert" like emotional, almost depressed characters that we have in DF, especially nozdormu that was pretty much turned into "i feel so sad" character in this whole expansion.

    Balance is good, there isn't much of it in DF story of worldbuilding, the same problem that SL had.

    I won't even touch the gender stuff because its awkward to read and I sincerely doubt anyone here is capable of a nuanced discussion regarding it lol.
    I think you're wrong about it and already showing "everyone here is too stupid to discuss it with me", you can fuck off with that stuff. ;p


    Edit: In before some big A4 posts happens and i will be busy playing BG3 - Next expansion needs more balance and has to bring cool, heavy metal grit, badass moments, that you can back to in the future to watch on youtube, instead of constant stream of everything, everyone being so emotional that feels like you're reading TUMBLR.
    Last edited by ImTheMizAwesome; 2023-09-19 at 07:46 AM.

  14. #18054
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    The Rumour Tower
    Posts
    3,640
    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    Afrasiabi wasn't the sole writer in charge, as Kosak wasn't before nor Danuser after. Metzen himself wasn't even technically on the WoW team; he was Vice President of Creative Development at Blizzard and had his hands full with every franchise as Lorgar noted. I don't exclude Afrasiabi from the faults of the writing at all, but Danuser was already Senior Narrative Designer by October 2017, and then Lead Narrative Designer by May 2019. He was hardly in a helpless role at the time, and the writing hasn't seen a seismic shift away from what we've seen in SL to suggest Afrasiabi held the reins alone.
    Sure, but you can't do wonders if the outline of a story (which is what afrasiabi did) was just shit to begin with. He fucked up Sylvanas so hard in BfA that they had to write a book just to retconn her back lol. On top of that, he didn't even have a big plan besides "she evil now, make her a boss".

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  15. #18055
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    The centaur zone main questline is about as textbook "masculine warcraft" as you can get that culminates in fighting a big bad guy, several of them actually.
    Centaurs are as feminine as devs can put them.
    "May your family be blessed with daughters" Imagine outrage if there was "sons".
    Centaurs are Maruuk in name, but they give 2 shits about Maruuk, unstead his wife is saint.
    Khans are all female. Only Nokhud one was male, but was killed bc he was evil, powerhungry maniac.

  16. #18056
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Centaurs are as feminine as devs can put them.
    "May your family be blessed with daughters" Imagine outrage if there was "sons".
    Centaurs are Maruuk in name, but they give 2 shits about Maruuk, unstead his wife is saint.
    Khans are all female. Only Nokhud one was male, but was killed bc he was evil, powerhungry maniac.
    Matrilineal societies do exist you know. Jews are an obvious one that traces lineage matrilineally.

    Maruuk is mentioned less, but it's still his name plastered over everything. Maruuk centaur living in Maruukai.
    Is it just because they put emphasis on being children of Teera, rather than Teera AND Maruuk?
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #18057
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Base Camp
    Posts
    19,371
    Oh no, gender was mentioned.

    Time to watch a bunch of people give their most braindead takes on the topic for the next 4-5 pages, just because they can't help themselves.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  18. #18058
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Matrilineal societies do exist you know. Jews are an obvious one that traces lineage matrilineally.

    Maruuk is mentioned less, but it's still his name plastered over everything. Maruuk centaur living in Maruukai.
    Is it just because they put emphasis on being children of Teera, rather than Teera AND Maruuk?
    Matrilineal societies is fine. But if khans are female role - why put Balakar as male in charge and make him villian? If Balakar was female we can assume that Maruuk centaurs are just matriarchal and be good with that. But unstead we have female good/male bad story, again.

  19. #18059
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Matrilineal societies is fine. But if khans are female role - why put Balakar as male in charge and make him villian? If Balakar was female we can assume that Maruuk centaurs are just matriarchal and be good with that. But unstead we have female good/male bad story, again.
    We also only have four major claims we know the leader of. One has a female speaking with a male interpreter, and another is represented by a male we do quests with, and who gives the orders in the dungeon.

    This just sounds like a massive overreaction to a minor faction.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  20. #18060
    Khan isn't a female only role, the previous Khan of the the Nokhud has been said to be very well respected among the centaurs and the Khan of the Clan the Nokhud overthrew to rise up was also led by a male centaur.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •