1. #18201
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    They said that Goblins (and contextually, based on the question, Gnomes) inherently are comedic-relief characters, and while they are fine and a welcome change, they want their main characters and main narrative to be straight-laced and very serious.

    Edit: And before you say "Things might have changed!", that interview is from last week.
    Do you have a link to the interview? Thanks.

    It reminds me of the statements made by Tom Chilton in regards to Pandaren right before Mists of Pandaria was announced. Essentially saying that people believing that a Pandaren expansion was coming needed to lower their expectations since Pandaren were only used for other media and not for WoW.

    One month later Mists of Pandaria was announced.

    Further, Blizzard controls the tone of a narrative. Goblins and Gnomes can be as serious or as silly as Blizzard wants them to be.

  2. #18202
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It reminds me of the statements made by Tom Chilton in regards to Pandaren right before Mists of Pandaria was announced. Essentially saying that people believing that a Pandaren expansion was coming needed to lower their expectations since Pandaren were only used for other media and not for WoW.

    One month later Mists of Pandaria was announced.
    I mean, if we go that route we can say that makes a South Seas expansion equally as probable due to Mike Ybarra's "No pirates." tweet.

  3. #18203
    The Sword of Sargeras stabbed Azeroth at the Wound, damaging its world-soul and (according to the Explorer's League) might've disturbed or awoken something below. We know the sword hit the world-soul at least, because Azerite sprouted everywhere.

    Khaz Algar, or Sector AR-938, where earthen got turned into dwarves as they were exploring an anomaly inside a fissure, is likely located underneath Kalimdor, because it was described as taking place a great distance from where the Curse of Flesh would affect earthen in Northrend thousands of years later.

    Xal'atah, presumably the Harbinger, often talks of the great prophecy. The Hour of Twilight is when "only one" of them would remain to consume the world.

    So...

    We know Xal'atath posesses the essence of Galakrond. He represented undeath in some form. Decay magic.

    We know Fyrakk is after the heart of Amirdrassil, which represents life. It's unclear if this is the heart mentioned in 'A Song of the Depths', in which "a dark heart left broken awaits the taking" is described as the final part of the prophecy. But either way, the true heart being alluded to will probably reveal itself during 10.2 or 10.2.5, leaving the way open for Xal'atath in 11.0.

    Okay, what else?

    What if the rumours of an "Ancient One", a "fifth Old God", or perhaps something even more sinister are true? We know for example that in Hearthstone lore, there was once a creature called "The Ancient One", which was basically a monstrous general of the Old Gods' forces, created by them. He eventually died, but can be resurrected if his essence is brought back together. I'm not saying that's what we're looking at in 11.0, but maybe something like it?

    Maybe that's what Xal'atath is up to. Collecting the essences she requires (whatever they represent, whether it's Life and Death, or maybe simply essences from all the four Old Gods) in order to use them on some "Ancient One". This might in turn be the creature to consume the world-soul.

    Given the proximity to C'thun, it's obviously possible that C'thun is the one they want to resurrect. But who knows.

    Either way, is this "Ancient One" the cause of the earthen at Sector AR-938 turning into dwarves? Does it share powers with the other Old Gods? Is it their progenitor? Or does it have their powers because they made it in their image, almost like the Titans made the Dragon Aspects and instilled portions of heir power within them? Is that why the Curse of Flesh could be cast on the earthen in Northrend, and also sizzle out from some fissure on the other side of the planet thousands of years earlier?

    Slight aside, but it could of course also entail that the "awakening" the Harbinger is about to commence isn't about Azeroth at all, but about this "Ancient One". The world-soul might not be the prize, just fuel.

    So where does the underground expansion come in?

    Well, Ion has been very coy about the sword. In a "I know something you don't" kind of way. Maybe Xal'atath and Iridikron go there, do something with the sword, and gain access to the underworld where the "children of the first flesh" are already hard at work excavating "the Ancient One" or perhaps simply reaching the world-soul?

    So while Queen Azshara wreaks havoc above, we chase the Harbinger down below the earth, in order to prevent the Hour of Twilight.

    This, I presume, would be the final great attempt by the Void at taking Azeroth. It'll mark the end of a long series of near world-ending events, from the Sundering to the Shattering.

    After we've defeated them and protected the world-soul, we might finally have our world revamp!
    Last edited by Worldshaper; 2023-09-19 at 10:15 PM.

  4. #18204
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Do you have a link to the interview? Thanks.

    It reminds me of the statements made by Tom Chilton in regards to Pandaren right before Mists of Pandaria was announced. Essentially saying that people believing that a Pandaren expansion was coming needed to lower their expectations since Pandaren were only used for other media and not for WoW.

    One month later Mists of Pandaria was announced.

    Further, Blizzard controls the tone of a narrative. Goblins and Gnomes can be as serious or as silly as Blizzard wants them to be.
    https://www.millenium.org/news/406685.html

    Goblins and Gnomes can be as serious or as silly as Blizzard wants them to be.
    Can they though? Blizzard has used them as comedic relief for the last 20 years, bar one short stint where Mekkatorque actually attacked someone in a cinematic (yet even his boss fight was comedic relief).

    Community perception is that they are a joke. They can try their hardest to change it, but if you try to tell a serious story with gnomes and goblins on the frontline, it's not gonna end well.

    And that's coming from someone who is a big fan of Goblins/Gnomes.

  5. #18205
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    All of that shares a single visual theme.

    If an underground expansion was happening, it would take themes from various subterreanean fantasy themes as well as warcrafts own.
    Underdark and others, Dwarves, Titans, Nerubians and other insectoids, Fungi and elementals, etc.

    Basing the entire continent on Goblins but with more money, Goblins but with more conveyor belts and Goblins but with extra Tesla coils, isn't gonna cut it.
    Yeah, I think you’re not considering just how far Blizzard could take the theme. You could lay Undermine out like a modern city with downtown, industrial sector, Central Park, the slums, etc. and you’ll get a fairly good variety of locale just from that.

    Conversely, they could simply have it that certain trade princes control areas of the continent. It could be as pedestrian as a Goblin robber baron who controls the mines and has hordes of hobgoblins and troll slaves, to the Tinker’s Union where there’s biolabs and robots, to something crazy like a goblin version of Willy Wonka who controls a candy factory and turned an entire zone into a demented version of candy land.

    Hearthstone’s The Boomsday Project should show you how crazy Blizzard can go with a Goblin-based tech theme.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Sorry, I can’t read that.


    Can they though?
    They did it with the Pandaren.

  6. #18206
    I really doubt Blizz would ourright troll or lie with their current tenuous fanbase relationship.

    Underground is ironically the one most likely to have ZERO pirates compared to South Seas, Revamp or Backside. Doesn't explain the new boats though.

    I think "no pirates" is probably an exaggeration but still, it tracks...

  7. #18207
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I mean, if we go that route we can say that makes a South Seas expansion equally as probable due to Mike Ybarra's "No pirates." tweet.
    “No pirates” is a bit more definitive than “lower your expectations”.

  8. #18208
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    I usually like Bel's content but that video, oh boy, is just full of toxic masculinity. Dragonflight is the best Expansion since Legion, and easily on par with MoP, but all he does is crying about it being not "brutal enough" and how guys would have prefered the ugly Draconids instead of the Dracthyr? WoW doesn't need to change "direction", it's already on the right track, all they need is a nostalgia bait expansion to bring back a mass of players similiar to WoD/Shadowlands (which had a huge number of new/returning players but didn't manage to retain them unlike Dragonflight).
    I hardly see issues with the tone as a matter of toxic masculinity insomuch as a desire to retain the general soul of the franchise. While much should be reasonably expected to have changed, we're at a point where the franchise simply doesn't feel like Warcraft: Dragonflight is tonally more analogous in my mind to a child-friendly spinoff like Snow Fight than Warcraft III. A representation of the matter as an absence of masculinity may be less accurate than a representation of the problem as an absence of tonal congruity with prior installments, and with a very modernized sense of excessive tonal cleanliness. I figure men and women alike with any interest in preserving what little is left of the franchise would appreciate seeing things get a little less sappy.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You'll believe it when you see it for yourself.

  9. #18209
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, I think you’re not considering just how far Blizzard could take the theme. You could lay Undermine out like a modern city with downtown, industrial sector, Central Park, the slums, etc. and you’ll get a fairly good variety of locale just from that.

    Conversely, they could simply have it that certain trade princes control areas of the continent. It could be as pedestrian as a Goblin robber baron who controls the mines and has hordes of hobgoblins and troll slaves, to the Tinker’s Union where there’s biolabs and robots, to something crazy like a goblin version of Willy Wonka who controls a candy factory and turned an entire zone into a demented version of candy land.

    Hearthstone’s The Boomsday Project should show you how crazy Blizzard can go with a Goblin-based tech theme.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Sorry, I can’t read that.




    They did it with the Pandaren.
    They did what with Pandaren?

    Pandaren were not used as a comedic relief for the last 20 years before they were added.

    In fact, the only time Pandaren were actually used in a non-Easter Egg way, in Founding of Durotar, it was played in a straight, serious way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I hardly see issues with the tone as a matter of toxic masculinity insomuch as a desire to retain the general soul of the franchise. While much should be reasonably expected to have changed, we're at a point where the franchise simply doesn't feel like Warcraft: Dragonflight is tonally more analogous in my mind to a child-friendly spinoff like Snow Fight than Warcraft III. A representation of the matter as an absence of masculinity may be less accurate than a representation of the problem as an absence of tonal congruity with prior installments, and with a very modernized sense of excessive tonal cleanliness. I figure men and women alike with any interest in preserving what little is left of the franchise would appreciate seeing things get a little less sappy.
    Dragonflight (or the themes of it anyway, what people essentially complain about) is the logical follow-up from Warcraft 3, more so than Vanilla.

    There is not any more "tonal cleanliness" than in Warcraft 3. At the end of the day, Warcraft 3 is just as much "World of Peacecraft" as Dragonflight is. The game literally hammers you over the head with "Hey, guys, stop fighting AGAINST eachother, there is a big threat that you should fight against together!" which has been the theme for the last 5 expansions or so.

    The game literally ends with a cheesy Anime-esque defense mission, climaxing in a deus ex machina moment.

  10. #18210
    Dragonflight feeling too whimsical, playful and sappy is definitely a common critique and doesn't really have to do with masculinity (even if some people frame it that way, both for and against).

    I do think some of it may be intentional to set up a twist with Tyr. Like him killing Vyranoth.
    Last edited by Cheezits; 2023-09-19 at 10:28 PM.

  11. #18211
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    They did what with Pandaren?

    Pandaren were not used as a comedic relief for the last 20 years before they were added.

    In fact, the only time Pandaren were actually used in a non-Easter Egg way, in Founding of Durotar, it was played in a straight, serious way.


    6 years before MoP was announced.

    Goblins and Gnomes are staples of the fantasy genre. Chubby Pandas doing a parody of kung fu is not. Yet an expansion based on the latter is considered one of the best WoW expansions ever made.

  12. #18212
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post


    6 years before MoP was announced.

    Goblins and Gnomes are staples of the fantasy genre. Chubby Pandas doing a parody of kung fu is not. Yet an expansion based on the latter is considered one of the best WoW expansions ever made.
    Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

    I don't see how it's so hard to understand.

  13. #18213
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Dragonflight (or the themes of it anyway, what people essentially complain about) is the logical follow-up from Warcraft 3, more so than Vanilla.

    There is not any more "tonal cleanliness" than in Warcraft 3. At the end of the day, Warcraft 3 is just as much "World of Peacecraft" as Dragonflight is. The game literally hammers you over the head with "Hey, guys, stop fighting AGAINST eachother, there is a big threat that you should fight against together!" which has been the theme for the last 5 expansions or so.

    The game literally ends with a cheesy Anime-esque defense mission, climaxing in a deus ex machina moment.
    You're not wrong that Warcraft III actually created major negative externalities for the series going forward insofar as the faction conflict went. It introduced the idea that perpetual war isn't an ideal state of things, but failed to deliver that message in a sustainable way for the franchise as it would go on. However, a general message of cooperation and an ending that was admittedly a foreshadowing of things to come—that is, faction cooperation to take down a personality-deprived villain—did not undermine the core spirit of the franchise. Characters were allowed to be emotional without spending five minutes in a pre-rendered cinematic making sad eyes at the camera, the level of violence was well within what's to be expected from the series, the sillier moments were kept relatively subdued,—emphasis on "relatively", as Warcraft III was still not too subdued on that front, so that should really illustrate the magnitude of Dragonflight's tonal problems,—and there was a good level of general grit even on account of the ending and most of TFT hammering in a message of cooperation.

    Back on the cooperation bit, part of what helped may have been that any effort for peace and collaboration in Warcraft III was more going against the tide, while a sequence of in-story paradigm shifts have left it the status quo in modern Warcraft, which frankly makes the point feel less strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

    I don't see how it's so hard to understand.
    To be fair, MoP was by all means setting up for Dragonflight's tonal issues. Putting this kind of thing front-and-center was the worst part of an otherwise-good expansion. Its benefits were good worldbuilding, a feeling of adventure, and some interesting villains, while its excessive levity was arguably the worst part of it.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You'll believe it when you see it for yourself.

  14. #18214
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

    I don't see how it's so hard to understand.
    Up until then, Pandaren were mostly seen as a joke. And i'd disagree with your other claim as well. Sure, they're commonly comic relief, but not exclusively. They do as much serious stuff when tech savvy people are needed as they do comedic when they aren't.

    Gallywix sure isn't funny when you actually think about what he did.

  15. #18215
    People shouldn't forget that players are antsy for factions (not war but factions at all) and that is playing into a lot of tonal complaints.

  16. #18216
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Gallywix sure isn't funny when you actually think about what he did.
    To be fair here, this is a matter of implication versus presentation. The latter typically wins out in fiction. Whatever his actions fundamentally would've caused, the presentation of his actions and their consequences have typically been comedic. The only exception to this would be if you consider BfA to be his fault, in which case the presentation of the war still oriented around serious characters and Gallywix's role in it was typically understated in the actual story, regardless of how much impact he actually had.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You'll believe it when you see it for yourself.

  17. #18217
    I'm not against Undermine, I think a larger spotlight on Goblins and yes, even the inclusion of tinkers, would be a ton of fun. I just don't see that being their direction when it feels like every single expansion the community seems to veer back to world revamp & old world return. I think an Undermine expansion could be a ton of fun even just as a part of something bigger, but following Dragonflight as another adventure somewhere other than some of the key pillars of the game (old world, factions, races, etc.) is gonna disappoint a whooooole lot of people

  18. #18218
    Imagine if it's called The Dark Below.

    Anyway, I seriously doubt it's just The Undermine. First of all, that place is probably right below the surface, and second of all it is way too themed around Goblins and Trade Princes.

    We need to go deeper, into a new world.

    Think about what the Harbinger needs. The world-soul. The most direct path to it goes through the Wound. Once the sword disappears.

    We meet the Dwarves of Khaz Algar, and explore the lost Titan facility of Uldaz (sounds pretty dwarven, doesn't it).
    Last edited by Worldshaper; 2023-09-19 at 11:06 PM.

  19. #18219
    Mist of Pandaria used funny looking people with a focus on brewery (amongst a lot of traditions, etc.) to tell strong tales of war with a serious tone, ending by stating that war is a part of growing and even needed.

    Dragonflight took serious heavy characters with strong traits to tell saccharine stories ending by stating that everyone must be open-minded and selfless and that war should be avoided at all cost.

    For that I hope next expansion is focused on silly people. The story can only be of better quality.

  20. #18220
    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I'm not against Undermine, I think a larger spotlight on Goblins and yes, even the inclusion of tinkers, would be a ton of fun. I just don't see that being their direction when it feels like every single expansion the community seems to veer back to world revamp & old world return. I think an Undermine expansion could be a ton of fun even just as a part of something bigger, but following Dragonflight as another adventure somewhere other than some of the key pillars of the game (old world, factions, races, etc.) is gonna disappoint a whooooole lot of people
    I can see there being a return to factions, which will make people happy, and it would clearly involve some old player races. But yeah no revamp will piss people off every expansion until they do it.

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