1. #18281
    I don't think Undermine would be the main setting, btw. It could be an entrypoint or something we explore as a singular zone, but the "underworld" would have to be a lot deeper, bigger, and less themed around Goblins.

    I could maybe see the Harbinger using the Wound as her entryway, while we negotiate a deal with the Goblins of Kezan to enter via the Undermine. So the launch scenario might take place there.

    1. We catch word of what the Harbinger has done.
    2. We go to Gadgetzan and catch a ship to Kezan.
    3. We enter the Undermine and resolve a few issues for the Goblin Trade Prince in charge. Maybe there are strange creatures crawling out from the deeper mine shafts.
    4. Working with the Goblins (and probably the Gnomes as well), we create some type of machine which lets us dig deep into Azeroth.
    5. We discover the underworld, where the expansion proper takes place.

    BTW, looking back it is kind of interesting that the RAF rewards is a Goblin set these days. Players recruiting old friends back to WoW would gain a very appropriate set if we're going underground.
    Last edited by Worldshaper; 2023-09-20 at 06:46 AM.

  2. #18282
    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    What about the Tidestone holding back all the water around Nazjatar?
    As I said, everything Azshara did

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by justwatching View Post
    Thinking about it you are right.
    If anything it was all Rule of Cool and no logic behind it.

  3. #18283
    World Revamp + Undermine as the endgame zone = Win/Win

    - - - Updated - - -

    Jokes aside, I hope Blizzard isn't dumb enough to make a fully Underground (or Underwater) expansion... like FR.

    Avaloren would be 100 times better even with no lore... Hell, I would say even Shadowlands' approach again would be better.

    I can live without a World Revamp again, but I doubt I would endure two huge disappointments.

  4. #18284
    So, it looks increasingly likely that this is our expansion. Neat.

    The Harbinger and Iridikron goes below the earth to mess with the world-soul and perhaps awaken something ancient.

    Players venture underground to discover a whole new world. Maybe involving Undermine, but also possibly something new entirely.

    Thrall becomes the expansion's guide and mentor figure, like Khadgar was when we faced the Burning Legion. Probably involving the well-being of the world, the elements, etc.

    A world revamp is possible but not guaranteed at this moment. It would make sense to happen anywhere from November 24th, 2024, to 12.0 in 2026.

  5. #18285
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I don't think Undermine would be the main setting, btw. It could be an entrypoint or something we explore as a singular zone, but the "underworld" would have to be a lot deeper, bigger, and less themed around Goblins.

    I could maybe see the Harbinger using the Wound as her entryway, while we negotiate a deal with the Goblins of Kezan to enter via the Undermine. So the launch scenario might take place there.

    1. We catch word of what the Harbinger has done.
    2. We go to Gadgetzan and catch a ship to Kezan.
    3. We enter the Undermine and resolve a few issues for the Goblin Trade Prince in charge. Maybe there are strange creatures crawling out from the deeper mine shafts.
    4. Working with the Goblins (and probably the Gnomes as well), we create some type of machine which lets us dig deep into Azeroth.
    5. We discover the underworld, where the expansion proper takes place.

    BTW, looking back it is kind of interesting that the RAF rewards is a Goblin set these days. Players recruiting old friends back to WoW would gain a very appropriate set if we're going underground.
    I'd just have Tyr send us there. That's what he is here for.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Jokes aside, I hope Blizzard isn't dumb enough to make a fully Underground (or Underwater) expansion... like FR.
    Can I ask why you think a fully underground expansion would be dump?

  6. #18286
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Jokes aside, I hope Blizzard isn't dumb enough to make a fully Underground (or Underwater) expansion... like FR.

    Avaloren would be 100 times better even with no lore... Hell, I would say even Shadowlands' approach again would be better.

    I can live without a World Revamp again, but I doubt I would endure two huge disappointments.
    I'd argue its all in the execution but I could see it working. "Underground" doesn't just mean caves, if you have a big enough area that just haves caves over it (Like Deepholme) it'll basically be an enviroment in of itself. Heck, we're limited by ceilings at the moment, just slap a cave roof on top of what we already have and have a giant cave like that. Lost world enviroments are a bit of a widespread thing for a reason and there's heaps of ways to make 'underground' interesting. Crystals, weird minerals, underground oceans lit by thousands of gems on the ceiling, Titan installations, Nerubian empire stuff, the endless flesh of a giant monster burried eternally, plenty of stuff to dig through and tie into existing stuff

    Mind I remain completely 'eh' on the sheer concept of a revamp to the point any new stuff an idea presents is what interests me, and I don't think a revamp is the sure 'getting people who've gone from the game' win folks say it is

  7. #18287
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    World Revamp + Undermine as the endgame zone = Win/Win

    - - - Updated - - -

    Jokes aside, I hope Blizzard isn't dumb enough to make a fully Underground (or Underwater) expansion... like FR.

    Avaloren would be 100 times better even with no lore... Hell, I would say even Shadowlands' approach again would be better.

    I can live without a World Revamp again, but I doubt I would endure two huge disappointments.
    As others have said, underground doesn't have to feel like it's underground. You might only think a lot about it when you're travelling there.

    The visual they should be going for is a vast area with a roof you can barely detect, because it looks like the sky. Whether that's because of a lot of minerals and gemstones, such as Azerite, or magic, or technology, remains to be seen. There should be trees and lakes and rivers, just as up above. But obviously slightly different. Maybe there's a slight shimmer coming from the trees, because they're infused with Azerite or something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd just have Tyr send us there. That's what he is here for.

    - - - Updated - - -
    I agree Tyr's involvement seems likely. Especially if Uldaz is down below, and key to our success.

    I wouldn't even rule out that Avaloren is down there, but that might be a stretch. The Children of the First Flesh could be seen as Heretics by Odyn, and if there really is a large underground sea, then that would explain why Avaloren isn't on "our shores" as the text mentioned.

  8. #18288
    Idea of Underground expansion after zaralek patch just makes me feel like puking.

    Still, until actual some facts or datamined stuff, real leaks happen i wouldn't give much thought to what towelliee says, dude is just f'n with you all.

    I was ok with him but after i saw this guy yelling "one of us" on twitter to VP Mike Ybarra, yeah he might know something since he's a great ass kisser, but still in my opinion dude is just playing with you like with dolls.
    Last edited by ImTheMizAwesome; 2023-09-20 at 07:15 AM.

  9. #18289
    Quote Originally Posted by Mecheon View Post
    I'd argue its all in the execution but I could see it working. "Underground" doesn't just mean caves, if you have a big enough area that just haves caves over it (Like Deepholme) it'll basically be an enviroment in of itself. Heck, we're limited by ceilings at the moment, just slap a cave roof on top of what we already have and have a giant cave like that. Lost world enviroments are a bit of a widespread thing for a reason and there's heaps of ways to make 'underground' interesting. Crystals, weird minerals, underground oceans lit by thousands of gems on the ceiling, Titan installations, Nerubian empire stuff, the endless flesh of a giant monster burried eternally, plenty of stuff to dig through and tie into existing stuff

    Mind I remain completely 'eh' on the sheer concept of a revamp to the point any new stuff an idea presents is what interests me, and I don't think a revamp is the sure 'getting people who've gone from the game' win folks say it is
    Like, imagine a hollow world feel in a flying only zone at the core of the world. The World Soul is at the middle illuminating the entire area brightly and Titan facilities are orbitting the area. The ground exposed to the light of Azeroth's soul is covered by a vibrant forest. You effectively have a skybox (so as to create the illusion of size) of an endless forest at all directions and the playable part are the titan facilities. You can get there by diving with your flying mount from the surrounding underground zones and the transition has a small "forced" movement part where you are breaking through the forest canopy and are deposited in the air above the world soul.

  10. #18290
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    Underground expansion after zaralek patch just makes me feel like puking.

    Still, until actual some facts or datamined stuff, real leaks happen i wouldn't give much thought to what towelliee says, dude is just f'n with you all.

    I was ok with him but after i saw this guy yelling "one of us" on twitter to VP Mike Ybarra, yeah he might know something since he's a great ass kisser, but still in my opinion dude is just playing with you like with dolls.
    The dude didn't start the idea of an underground expansion. There has been a lot of speculation and "leaks" regarding the idea of going below the ground, for example using the undermine.

    It's also pretty much suggested by the current lore if you pay attention.

    • The Harbinger wants the world-soul - where is that? In the planet's core.
    • Iridikron is her lackey, and what is his element? Earth.
    • Thrall is on the poster for BlizzCon, and what is he? World Shaman and (at least former) Earth-warder.
    • We've run out of new continents to visit on Azeroth, and supposedly traveling with the pirates to the other side of the world isn't happening in this expansion.
    • The story suggest a major Void showdown is coming up next, and the Harbinger is gathering powerful essences for something. What for? Resurrect some ancient monstrosity perhaps?
    • The earthen of Khaz Algar is one of the major hints for future lore, and the Titan facility Uldaz sounds pretty dwafish. This fits with the book 'A Song of the Depths', where it is mentioned that the Harbinger has gathered the Children of the First Flesh, that are now toiling below. Why would this even be mentioned in a Dragonflight prophecy involving the current story, unless it had something to do with her plans?
    Last edited by Worldshaper; 2023-09-20 at 07:24 AM.

  11. #18291
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Streets Strange by Moonlight
    Posts
    8,837
    There wont ba an underground expansion after Blizz was quick to acknowledged that Cata Vashj'ir totally exhausted people. We wont get entire "continent" underground, unless they do some massive Journey to the Center of the Earth stuff.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  12. #18292
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    There wont ba an underground expansion after Blizz was quick to acknowledged that Cata Vashj'ir totally exhausted people. We wont get entire "continent" underground, unless they do some massive Journey to the Center of the Earth stuff.
    But that's the entire idea. It'll be a Journey to the Center of the Earth type of expansion, if it happens. They'd never just place us in some mouldy, damp cave with a candle and a roof right above our heads. That'd be player retention suicide.

  13. #18293
    Alright, I'll bite. What makes people think an underground expansion is likely?
    Is it the part where the human fights a Kobold in Elwynn? Because that seems like an extremely tenous link.
    Would a murloc be a hint at Ankoan being the main ally in an underwater expansion? A picture of booty bay a hint at Nightsquall creating a pirate empire in Pandaria?
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #18294
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    They'd never just place us in some mouldy, damp cave with a candle and a roof right above our heads. That'd be player retention suicide.
    It's Kobolds and Catacombs!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Alright, I'll bite. What makes people think an underground expansion is likely?
    Is it the part where the human fights a Kobold in Elwynn? Because that seems like an extremely tenous link.
    Would a murloc be a hint at Ankoan being the main ally in an underwater expansion? A picture of booty bay a hint at Nightsquall creating a pirate empire in Pandaria?
    I';ve no idea, I just always loved the underdark concept so I am in if it happens.
    I still think we are getting Avaloren, a "continent" with 4-5 zones.

  15. #18295
    Epic! Pheraz's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Feralas, Mount Hyal, Quel'Danil Lodge
    Posts
    1,675
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    The dude didn't start the idea of an underground expansion. There has been a lot of speculation and "leaks" regarding the idea of going below the ground, for example using the undermine.

    It's also pretty much suggested by the current lore if you pay attention.

    • The Harbinger wants the world-soul - where is that? In the planet's core.
    • Iridikron is her lackey, and what is his element? Earth.
    • Thrall is on the poster for BlizzCon, and what is he? World Shaman and (at least former) Earth-warder.
    • We've run out of new continents to visit on Azeroth, and supposedly traveling with the pirates to the other side of the world isn't happening in this expansion.
    • The story suggest a major Void showdown is coming up next, and the Harbinger is gathering powerful essences for something. What for? Resurrect some ancient monstrosity perhaps?
    Jeez, this sounds really plausible. Actually, this is the most plausible causal chain of recent events I have seen.
    As long as we aren't stuck the whole xpac underground I don't mind.
    Deepholm was IMO a bit better aesteically than zaralek though.
    Also, deepholm.
    So maybe some people have forgotten it but eventually the existence of deepholm (themaically) is the only thing contraticting this idea?
    Zorn | Vynd | Pheraz | Sylwina | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - Plus 20 more...

  16. #18296
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    The dude didn't start the idea of an underground expansion. There has been a lot of speculation and "leaks" regarding the idea of going below the ground, for example using the undermine.

    It's also pretty much suggested by the current lore if you pay attention.

    • The Harbinger wants the world-soul - where is that? In the planet's core.
    • Iridikron is her lackey, and what is his element? Earth.
    • Thrall is on the poster for BlizzCon, and what is he? World Shaman and (at least former) Earth-warder.
    • We've run out of new continents to visit on Azeroth, and supposedly traveling with the pirates to the other side of the world isn't happening in this expansion.
    • The story suggest a major Void showdown is coming up next, and the Harbinger is gathering powerful essences for something. What for? Resurrect some ancient monstrosity perhaps?
    There has been speculation yes, but whenever some content creator posts some bait tweet or whatever, the speculation here go from just speculating to "oh yeah, now this theme is all but confirmed, thats the next expansion".

    But just to not derailing, i doubt that there will be more than 1 zone that will be underground, even if the "undermine" stuff happens.

    What they did with zaralek caverns showed me that they are much better at doing zones that aren't in a cave, underground.
    Last edited by ImTheMizAwesome; 2023-09-20 at 07:27 AM.

  17. #18297
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    Jeez, this sounds really plausible. Actually, this is the most plausible causal chain of recent events I have seen.
    As long as we aren't stuck the whole xpac underground I don't mind.
    Deepholm was IMO a bit better aesteically than zaralek though.
    Also, deepholm.
    So maybe some people have forgotten it but eventually the existence of deepholm (themaically) is the only thing contraticting this idea?
    I think they'll aim for Deepholm times one thousand, but with more aesthetic nuance so it doesn't get stale.

    Deepholm is similar in a way, but remember that it is also something the Titans constructed to imprison the elements within the Elemental Plane. Even its famous World Pillar that Deathwing once shattered, is made by the Titans. Think of it a bit like the way they shaped the Emerald Dream. There's probably an underlying, more primal and natural source of the Emerald Dream that the Titans shaped and ordered. Same thing here. There's something more primal than the Elemental Planes. Azeroth's fundament itself, where the Elementals are perhaps more pristine.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    There has been speculation yes, but whenever some content creator posts some bait tweet or whatever, the speculation here go from just speculating to "oh yeah, now this theme is all but confirmed, thats the next expansion".

    But just to not derailing, i doubt that there will be more than 1 zone that will be underground, even if the "undermine" stuff happens.

    What they did with zaralek caverns showed me that they are much better at doing zones that aren't in a cave, underground.
    That's also true. It's fully possible that we're looking at another Cataclysm type of situation, in which we get a revamp plus a handful of scattered zones. The underground zone might be the main endgame zone where the story takes us first.

    But who knows, perhaps the expansion takes a shocking turn halfway through. Maybe we protect the world-soul, but the Harbinger is still able to awaken "The Ancient One". Then Queen Azshara arrives, and it becomes more of a war against the forces of the Void, up above.

  18. #18298
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    There has been speculation yes, but whenever some content creator posts some bait tweet or whatever, the speculation here go from just speculating to "oh yeah, now this theme is all but confirmed, thats the next expansion".

    But just to not derailing, i doubt that there will be more than 1 zone that will be underground, even if the "undermine" stuff happens.

    What they did with zaralek caverns showed me that they are much better at doing zones that aren't in a cave, underground.
    It certainly fits with how speculation usually works. A theme gets researched for a while, everyone agrees ok broad themes for an expansion, probably also where it's set. Then people grow bored of debating the same thing, activity grinds to a halt.
    Then, all of a sudden a new shiny leak or hint or whatever comes along. It doesn't have much of anything to do with what we have already decided is happening, so it's exciting, meaning everyone pivots to it.

    Question is. Will this be the popular leak theme that gets it completely and utterly wrong in comparison to the established theme everyone already agreed on months ago?


    Also, I would argue that Kobolds is much more of a world revamp hint anyways. Elwynn and the surrounding zones are where they are most famous for existing, and they already got a visual revamp so it wouldn't fit with previous stuff like Quilboar in BfA being randomly revamped and stuffs into a zone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I think they'll aim for Deepholm times one thousand, but with more aesthetic nuance so it doesn't get stale.

    Deepholm is similar in a way, but remember that it is also something the Titans constructed to imprison the elements within the Elemental Plane. Even its famous World Pillar that Deathwing once shattered, is made by the Titans. Think of it a bit like the way they shaped the Emerald Dream. There's probably an underlying, more primal and natural source of the Emerald Dream that the Titans shaped and ordered. Same thing here. There's something more primal than the Elemental Planes. Azeroth's fundament itself, where the Elementals are perhaps more pristine.



    That's also true. It's fully possible that we're looking at another Cataclysm type of situation, in which we get a revamp plus a handful of scattered zones. The underground zone might be the main endgame zone where the story takes us first.

    But who knows, perhaps the expansion takes a shocking turn halfway through. Maybe we protect the world-soul, but the Harbinger is still able to awaken "The Ancient One". Then Queen Azshara arrives, and it becomes more of a war against the forces of the Void, up above.
    Revamp + new zones is precisely one of the main issues with Cataclysm though.
    Unless you mean as patch zones, but even then you have so many zones that you could just withhold detail from one zone initially, and then give it large amounts of detail later.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #18299
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Revamp + new zones is precisely one of the main issues with Cataclysm though.
    Unless you mean as patch zones, but even then you have so many zones that you could just withhold detail from one zone initially, and then give it large amounts of detail later.
    I'm not saying that's what will happen, only that it could.

    I think it comes down to execution, as with most things.

    Not sure what the other zones would be, though. I know there are few scattered minor locations on the map that we've yet to visit, such as Tel'Abim and Plunder Isle. But those wouldn't really form a coherent theme without pirates and the South Seas angle. They could keep expanding EK and KA landmasses around the edges, as they did with Twilight Highlands. But even that feels like a longshot these days.

    Imo, I'm leaning a little bit more towards a large underground "continent" of sorts, with a potential world revamp happening either around the same time, or a little while later.

  20. #18300
    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    The whole idea the Undermine being a sandbox city the size of a continent could work if it was similar to something like Jak II (and Jak III)'s Haven City or even Bullworth from Bully rather than something like in Grand Theft Auto 5.

    The idea of a city being the size of a whole expansion continent however is something that's never been done before in WoW. Having different sections of the city being quest areas with different plots... like one end of the city is a run-down dilapidated area that's been trashed by various gangs at war with each other, another section is a more high-end part of the city but corrupt moguls and trade princes run this area and will snuff out any competition that gets in their way.

    And not every part of the city is liveable.. there's one part of the city where they test out the latest bombs and explosive technology resulting in mad bomber type goblins trying to test their products on real humanoids... or have one section of the city being a former residential zone turned into a quarantined radioactive wasteland where the goblins dump all their hazardous waste from the city. This leads to wild-life pouring in from the city like Troggs and Kobolds.

    And finally the real "major city" aspect is a large plaza full of shops and vendors. The gimmick being that Gallywix owns every shop, but there is a growing group of goblins trying to topple his monopoly, which is how the factions come into play.

    Now whether Blizzard can execute it well or even if they intend to go that route is a different matter all together, but it is possible.
    The issue wasn't conceptual viability. Of course a theoretical expansion that takes place in a giant city could exist.

    But there are so many issues with it, and it has such limited appeal, and it's so thoroughly against the basic design space of the game that the chances of it happening are effectively zero.


    People have continually expressed they don't like compact or condensed zones--I don't mean "I don't like it", I personally don't mind it, but the playerbase does not enjoy that sort of zone design. Even Suramar, which retroactively is quite well liked, during Legion got a lot of flak for being a dense, mob-heavy area. While it's true that there is plenty of visual variety to be had in a city, there is a much narrower level of thematic and environment variety. A radioactive fallout city and a 20s gang war city are both still cities, it's still buildings and streets and city structure, and every zone being a different form of city is going to wear on people.

    There's also just logistical issues here. A city environment is significantly more intensive, both on the dev end (a lot of assets to deal with making) and on the player end (several factors more objects and polygons to render). Consider these two pictures:



    Each building in a city is going to be a fairly complex object, supports and windows and tiles and molding, wires and doodads, instead of flat terrain (a simplified plane with dressing on top) you have to deal with streets and curbs, you have alleyways full of boxes and bottles and garbage cans, etc. etc. Which is fine when it's one subarea of a zone, or even a zone, but it's a whole different thing when it's an entire continent. That's an entire continent that devs need to go through and individually dress the streets for if they don't want it to turn into a glaringly copy-pasted mess. It's also a massive amount for lower end PCs to have to deal with in every location of a continent.

    Picture Boralus but the size of Azure span or the entire Dragon Isles. I mean, you're talking about something on the order of dwarfing like, GTAV's Los Santos, but with the object complexity for a player to arrive at some quest hub neighborhood and have the buildings feel of good quality when you're on foot fighting mobs next to it.

    Even if 80% of the city is destroyed ruins of various flavors, I just can't imagine a world in which that isn't a logistical nightmare to make and to keep in a nicely running state for players.

    If we were talking about a Black Empire city continent, or a Nerubian city continent, where the buildings are all very very large and simple and most of the environment is large open spaces, squares and colonnades and plazas like Zin-Azshari, maybe. Still doubtful, but maybe. But a whole continent or even the majority of a continent as a goblin city? Never gonna happen.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •