1. #18301
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  2. #18302
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    An entire underground expansion would be r.i.p for the game

    But if its something like a World revamp with a single huge endgame zone underground ( gameplay inspired from Tears of The Kingdom ) would be sick

  3. #18303
    Tbh it would feel weird to be "cramped" underground after experiencing the freedom of Dragonflight. Of course you can create various biomes underground, but having a whole expansion underground would feel weird imho. Having sections of zones in caves/inside of mountains would be fine (as long as they are caves that don't dismount you) but not whole zones let alone an expansion.

  4. #18304
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loreguy126 View Post
    Definitely got weird hypermasc vibes too… like what does he mean by “gushy” stuff and “heartwarming”? Hopefully not an attack on inclusion efforts… the world needs more games to be positive, and Blizzard definitely does, at least with WoW. So any other takes on that are <WRONG>
    Yeah. I get that people want a bit more "heavy metal", hell I just enjoyed John Wick 4 yesterday. But that doesn't mean they have to dial back what they did with Dragonflight. Current rl world is sad enough, I don't want another depressed world ending non-sense story like BfA.

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  5. #18305
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Yeah. I get that people want a bit more "heavy metal", hell I just enjoyed John Wick 4 yesterday. But that doesn't mean they have to dial back what they did with Dragonflight. Current rl world is sad enough, I don't want another depressed world ending non-sense story like BfA.
    So far dragonflight when it comes to characters under all this colorful paint, is much more depressing and emotional all the time instead of doing cool stuff, when it comes to watching the main characters.
    It's like watching a support group you walked into by accident right now, a good comment that i saw on the webs about some of this expansion writing.

    And the world ending scenario is coming with iridikron, Fyrakk wanting to destroy new tree and possibly new NE home.

    Blizzard need to find a balance between cool, badass shit happening and emotional rollecoaster that doesn't end and not in a good way, because at some point there is this weird "emotional" overdose that is just bland and boring.

    Especially coming from BG3 characters that can be emotional but also badass, funny, but when you see Alexstrasza in Dragonflight for example or Noz right now, it feels like a caricature of characters that writers don't have any idea whatsoever for them, when they can just go for easy scenario where they do badass stuff that will be remembered, especially when they're dragons.. Dragons do cool shit, but not in dragonflight.

    Another thing is, that world is always sad and it shouldn't dictate how safe a video game expansion should be.
    Last edited by ImTheMizAwesome; 2023-09-20 at 08:58 AM.

  6. #18306
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    So far dragonflight when it comes to characters under all this colorful paint, is much more depressing and emotional all the time instead of doing cool stuff, when it comes to watching the main characters.
    It's like watching a support group you walked into by accident right now, a good comment that i saw on the webs about some of this expansion writing.

    And the world ending scenario is coming with iridikron, Fyrakk wanting to destroy new tree and possibly new NE home.

    Blizzard need to find a balance between cool, badass shit happening and emotional rollecoaster that doesn't end and not in a good way, because at some point there is this weird "emotional" overdose that is just bland and boring.

    Especially coming from BG3 characters that can be emotional but also badass, funny, but when you see Alexstrasza in Dragonflight for example or Noz right now, it feels like a caricature of characters that writers don't have any idea whatsoever for them, when they can just go for easy scenario where they do badass stuff that will be remembered, especially when they're dragons.. Dragons do cool shit, but not in dragonflight.

    Another thing is, that world is always sad and it shouldn't dictate how safe a video game expansion should be.
    I think you're raising an important issue, one that sort of gets to the heart of what's problematic with Dragonflight.

    Dragons are COOL. In virtually every media, they're always seen as badass, larger than life, and super powerful. But in Dragonflight, they've focused so much on "what would Dragon society look like if we pulled away the curtains a bit?", it just ends up overexposing their culture and what they are.

    Too many Visages. Too many Drakonids (everyone looks the same). Too many similar Dragon models. Too many buildings that kinda look like normal people live there. It's like Dragons prefer their Visage life, basically.

    This in turn also forces Blizzard to explore a bunch of extra storywriting, like the inner feelings of Dragons, their romantic relationships, their self-doubt, and more. None of that is very appealing in large doses imo.

    I remember when Dragons were something the Orcs would send into battle back in the RTS games.

  7. #18307
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Can I ask why you think a fully underground expansion would be dump?
    I don't believe Blizzard is capable of pulling off 5+ zones with enough aesthetic variation without it also feeling non-sensical.

    Want a quick and simple example?

    Neither Zaralek nor Deepholm has day/night cycles. Also, neither has any weather, and I'm glad they don't have it!

    It would be a lot easier to explain a variety of biomes in the Emerald Dream with very few additions/retcons than giving day/night cycles or weather to an underground continent.

    I understand that some of you might like the idea of an underground expansion, but we must admit that this setting is a love or hate concept.

  8. #18308
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I think you're raising an important issue, one that sort of gets to the heart of what's problematic with Dragonflight.

    Dragons are COOL. In virtually every media, they're always seen as badass, larger than life, and super powerful. But in Dragonflight, they've focused so much on "what would Dragon society look like if we pulled away the curtains a bit?", it just ends up overexposing their culture and what they are.

    Too many Visages. Too many Drakonids (everyone looks the same). Too many similar Dragon models. Too many buildings that kinda look like normal people live there. It's like Dragons prefer their Visage life, basically.

    This in turn also forces Blizzard to explore a bunch of extra storywriting, like the inner feelings of Dragons, their romantic relationships, their self-doubt, and more. None of that is very appealing in large doses imo.

    I remember when Dragons were something the Orcs would send into battle back in the RTS games.
    Yeah man, i remember doing dragon hero fights in map edits in W3, it was like the coolest thing ever.

    And like you said dragons are cool and with simple storytelling that works, then can just do some cool shit, intimidating shit that just pumps you out when you see these scenes, so far it has been dragon visages talking.. Just talking, slowly and with sadness, mostly.

    I always loved WoW for simple storytelling that had some emotional atmosphere about zones, characters, quests but it was also done in a way that it should be, like dragons for me, before playing Dragonflight were a much cooler thing in my mind than they are now.

    I had the same issue with afterlives of Shadowlands, it was this mystery and seeing the spirit after your death made you think always about some mysterious stuff, but then everything was unveiled that happens behind the courtain and there was just too much focus on it.

    Now it's like superhero movies but without the action and epic scenes.
    Last edited by ImTheMizAwesome; 2023-09-20 at 09:20 AM.

  9. #18309
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    Yeah man, i remember doing dragon hero fights in map edits in W3, it was like the coolest thing ever.

    And like you said dragons are cool and with simple storytelling that works, then can just do some cool shit, intimidating shit that just pumps you out when you see these scenes, so far it has been dragon visages talking.. Just talking, slowly and with sadness, mostly.

    I always loved WoW for simple storytelling that had some emotional atmosphere about zones, characters, quests but it was also done in a way that it should be, like dragons for me, before playing Dragonflight were a much cooler thing in my mind than they are now.

    I had the same issue with afterlives of Shadowlands, it was this mystery and seeing the spirit after your death made you think always about some mysterious stuff, but then everything was unveiled that happens behind the courtain and there was just too much focus on it.

    Now it's like superhero movies but without the action and epic scenes.
    Yep, all true.

    I think something Legion did better than Shadowlands, in terms of being a "big expansion about a cosmic force", was involve lots of locations, themes and characters back on Azeroth. The Broken Isles were pretty varied by themselves, but then you also got sent on a bunch of adventures for your Order Halls, Artifact Weapons, etc. In a way, all of Azeroth felt like it was part of it.

    For 11.0, they need to do the same I think. Let the Void be the big bad, but also make it feel like we're on Azeroth. Remind us why we're trying to protect that place.

    Open up Void portals or Elemental chasms (temporary ones of course) in zones like Westfall and Desolace. Let us defend Stormwind and Orgrimmar against weekly or daily attacks.

    Include lots of characters we know and love, like Genn, Baine, Jaina, Thrall, etc. Have them be part of, and lead the defenses at all these various locations.

    But also offer that specific endgame experience in the large underground area, so we feel like we're witnessing something new too.

  10. #18310
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I don't believe Blizzard is capable of pulling off 5+ zones with enough aesthetic variation without it also feeling non-sensical.

    Want a quick and simple example?

    Neither Zaralek nor Deepholm has day/night cycles. Also, neither has any weather, and I'm glad they don't have it!

    It would be a lot easier to explain a variety of biomes in the Emerald Dream with very few additions/retcons than giving day/night cycles or weather to an underground continent.

    I understand that some of you might like the idea of an underground expansion, but we must admit that this setting is a love or hate concept.
    So it is more disbelief that blizzard could pull it off

  11. #18311
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    So it is more disbelief that blizzard could pull it off
    Is that so unbelievable?

  12. #18312
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Yep, all true.

    I think something Legion did better than Shadowlands, in terms of being a "big expansion about a cosmic force", was involve lots of locations, themes and characters back on Azeroth. The Broken Isles were pretty varied by themselves, but then you also got sent on a bunch of adventures for your Order Halls, Artifact Weapons, etc. In a way, all of Azeroth felt like it was part of it.

    For 11.0, they need to do the same I think. Let the Void be the big bad, but also make it feel like we're on Azeroth. Remind us why we're trying to protect that place.

    Open up Void portals or Elemental chasms (temporary ones of course) in zones like Westfall and Desolace. Let us defend Stormwind and Orgrimmar against weekly or daily attacks.

    Include lots of characters we know and love, like Genn, Baine, Jaina, Thrall, etc. Have them be part of, and lead the defenses at all these various locations.

    But also offer that specific endgame experience in the large underground area, so we feel like we're witnessing something new too.
    I agree with you.

    I think some writers there at blizzard got carried away with overreaching and veeery vague up until the last patch scenario, going too deep on more mysterious creatures, themes that kills all the mystery, and i think they should just come back to - Balanced story, where we know who and what are the baddie intentions are, but during that some crazy twists, badass and emotional(legion Ysera or varian scene for example) scenes are happening like we had in legion(opening argus) in between.

    Now with iridkron which is a cool character, we are pretty much waiting for a vague thing that might happen with him, especially when there's a chance that 10.2 might be the last major patch, but with more smaller patches later.

    Like you said, we have void expansion and let's say we know what the goal of the big baddies is, but we have to go through hard times and challenges to finally get to the end and defeat this big baddie.

    It's simple and we know what is happening, but there are stuff happening in between that excites us and makes us go "whoah did that really happened?", instead of main story stuff mostly being "wait and see", but not in a good way where most stuff ends up being not explained correctly.

  13. #18313
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    What if the Undermine is actually Uldaz? Either the city built on top of it... or the titan facility/city "re-decorated" after generations of goblins living in it without their knowledge?
    This just reminded me of Ankahet. The Nerubians are technically using Titan technology. I'm surprised they never again brought up the incubation technology. Maybe an expansion exploring underground or 'Hollow Azeroth' wouldn't be bad after all, throw in Nazjatar proper for good measure.

  14. #18314
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Is that so unbelievable?
    Not at all but honestly that goes for all concepts. Imo they did not pull off Dragon Isles either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    This just reminded me of Ankahet. The Nerubians are technically using Titan technology. I'm surprised they never again brought up the incubation technology. Maybe an expansion exploring underground or 'Hollow Azeroth' wouldn't be bad after all, throw in Nazjatar proper for good measure.
    I did have this concept that Azshara had pierced through the Maelstorm and into a vast underground ocean that was effectively hanging over the world soul.

  15. #18315
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    I agree with you.

    I think some writers there at blizzard got carried away with overreaching and veeery vague up until the last patch scenario, going too deep on more mysterious creatures, themes that kills all the mystery, and i think they should just come back to - Balanced story, where we know who and what are the baddie intentions are, but during that some crazy twists, badass and emotional(legion Ysera or varian scene for example) scenes are happening like we had in legion(opening argus) in between.

    Now with iridkron which is a cool character, we are pretty much waiting for a vague thing that might happen with him, especially when there's a chance that 10.2 might be the last major patch, but with more smaller patches later.

    Like you said, we have void expansion and let's say we know what the goal of the big baddies is, but we have to go through hard times and challenges to finally get to the end and defeat this big baddie.

    It's simple and we know what is happening, but there are stuff happening in between that excites us and makes us go "whoah did that really happened?", instead of main story stuff mostly being "wait and see", but not in a good way where most stuff ends up being not explained correctly.
    One possible idea for a "go through hard times" would be something like a drastic change happens to setting midway through an expansion rather than at the start of it. Something like the Vale of Eternal Blossoms getting destroyed when Garrosh finds the Heart of Ysharraj and dumps it into the Vale's waters. (Minus destroying the daily quest hub stuff as a result...)

  16. #18316
    Epic! Pheraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I think you're raising an important issue, one that sort of gets to the heart of what's problematic with Dragonflight.

    Dragons are COOL. In virtually every media, they're always seen as badass, larger than life, and super powerful. But in Dragonflight, they've focused so much on "what would Dragon society look like if we pulled away the curtains a bit?", it just ends up overexposing their culture and what they are.

    Too many Visages. Too many Drakonids (everyone looks the same). Too many similar Dragon models. Too many buildings that kinda look like normal people live there. It's like Dragons prefer their Visage life, basically.

    This in turn also forces Blizzard to explore a bunch of extra storywriting, like the inner feelings of Dragons, their romantic relationships, their self-doubt, and more. None of that is very appealing in large doses imo.

    I remember when Dragons were something the Orcs would send into battle back in the RTS games.
    Yep, this humanization is also what puzzles me most about the theme. While the game itself is super enjoyable and alt friendly and the outdoor zones are well executed the main theme "dragons" could have been implemented a bit better. dragons are f*cking huge, massive, ancient creatures that live long and mostly EAT humans as snacks. Also spit fire and live in caves. What we see experience in those omni observer perspective are dialogues between elves with fancy armor talking about their feelings and the past. As players the dragons shift more often from human to dragon form but while I often fled from elite jarradins in zaralek I never thought "oh shit there is a dragon" while moving outdoor. Never.
    Just imagine you go into a dark cave to search for some quest giver/objective. You can barely see anything. Suddenly glowing eyes appear and "DRAGONname xyz is about to spit fire" on the screen. Either you gtfo or you are instant dead. Because eventually dragon fire should burn you to death i guess?
    Not that cataclysm would have been any better there but just look at this awesome trailer where this massive deathwing kills all goblins while emerging on azeroth (plus this awesome voice acting )

    While shadowlands story logic was very questionable with sylv and the jailor at least sylvanas had some danger vibes. Same as the maw. I died quite often, especially with poor geared/leveling alts.

    I hope they find a theme for the next xpac where villiains and danger is easier to excecute
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  17. #18317
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    Yep, this humanization is also what puzzles me most about the theme. While the game itself is super enjoyable and alt friendly and the outdoor zones are well executed the main theme "dragons" could have been implemented a bit better. dragons are f*cking huge, massive, ancient creatures that live long and mostly EAT humans as snacks. Also spit fire and live in caves.
    See, they don't have to live in caves. But they should live somewhere. Valdrakken has all but one indoor space designed for dragons. It seems that WoW dragons are humanoids who can shapeshift into giant lizards instead of the opposite. How many of the buildings in the isles can two dragons fit in when crossing next to each other?

  18. #18318
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    I agree with you.
    Yeah, agreed. Not much more to add other than you're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    This just reminded me of Ankahet. The Nerubians are technically using Titan technology. I'm surprised they never again brought up the incubation technology. Maybe an expansion exploring underground or 'Hollow Azeroth' wouldn't be bad after all, throw in Nazjatar proper for good measure.
    I think there's room for a second domain of Azshara, question is where. She's supposed to return to rule over the land, sky, and sea, so she needs a palace somewhere I bet. Maelstrom 2.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    Yep, this humanization is also what puzzles me most about the theme. While the game itself is super enjoyable and alt friendly and the outdoor zones are well executed the main theme "dragons" could have been implemented a bit better. dragons are f*cking huge, massive, ancient creatures that live long and mostly EAT humans as snacks. Also spit fire and live in caves. What we see experience in those omni observer perspective are dialogues between elves with fancy armor talking about their feelings and the past. As players the dragons shift more often from human to dragon form but while I often fled from elite jarradins in zaralek I never thought "oh shit there is a dragon" while moving outdoor. Never.
    Just imagine you go into a dark cave to search for some quest giver/objective. You can barely see anything. Suddenly glowing eyes appear and "DRAGONname xyz is about to spit fire" on the screen. Either you gtfo or you are instant dead. Because eventually dragon fire should burn you to death i guess?
    Not that cataclysm would have been any better there but just look at this awesome trailer where this massive deathwing kills all goblins while emerging on azeroth (plus this awesome voice acting )

    While shadowlands story logic was very questionable with sylv and the jailor at least sylvanas had some danger vibes. Same as the maw. I died quite often, especially with poor geared/leveling alts.

    I hope they find a theme for the next xpac where villiains and danger is easier to excecute
    Yeah that's all true.

    I hope that in 11.0, with the new Age of Dragons having officially begun and their numbers replenished somewhat, the dragons will fight at our side against the Void. Not in Visage form, but as huge, hulking beasts of the sky. They'll finally carry out their ancient charge and help save Azeroth from the Hour of Twilight.

    Otherwise what the heck was the point of Dragonflight? Just to get the enemy what they needed? No, the Dragons must be used in a big way soon.

  19. #18319
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I think there's room for a second domain of Azshara, question is where. She's supposed to return to rule over the land, sky, and sea, so she needs a palace somewhere I bet. Maelstrom 2.0?
    Imagine this. You dive into the Maelstrom, see the wound in the crust of the world and find Naga structures all the way to the depths and beyond. You pass through to a massive Naga city in a shallow underground ocean with massive spires rising above the water and the World Soul shining like a sun above you. Naga sea witches manipulate the ocean stretching massive tentacles of water that stretch all the way to the core, encircling it

  20. #18320
    Epic! Pheraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See, they don't have to live in caves. But they should live somewhere. Valdrakken has all but one indoor space designed for dragons. It seems that WoW dragons are humanoids who can shapeshift into giant lizards instead of the opposite. How many of the buildings in the isles can two dragons fit in when crossing next to each other?
    Well, Valdrakken is certainly cool and my critique is not a 1/10 critique or rant or anything.
    But I guess they exactly wanted us to live beside dragons. "Wouldn't it be cool if players would feel like living beside dragons?"
    Well, no this is kinda contradicting the whole mystery of humans vs dragons.
    Sigurd vs fafnir
    the d0rfs vs smaug
    or "Drachenelfen" by bernhard hennen (no idea if this is available in english, though his "the elven" book is, which is fantastic but this is kinda o.t.)
    All those portrait this much better. In the latter the dragons are the first creatures created by the "albs" (kinda godlike beings). They are huge, almost imortal, massive, telepathic and can prbly even make karate or judo, you get my point. For "lesser" jobs they have super special elves (dragon elves saga is the prelude to the elf saga where elves rule the world) specifically selected among elves. The elves train themselves for those jobs or sometimes are trained by the dragons with some telepathic tips or sth. But they fear the dragons and sometimes they are just killed because XYZ. The dragons fight against some super demons but this is a gain o.t.
    But those are really only some elves like 10-20 per dragon "swarm"/aspect/cave. Most of humans, dwarfs and other elves just gtfo whenever there are dragons in sight.
    Somehow dragonflight feels more like jurassic park when you exchange massive lizards with dinosaurs. It is certainly an interpretation for this theme that is not invalid but it is just not my cup of tea and I prefer dragon stories like the one from bernhard hennen
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