1. #18321
    And the thing is, it's not like doing whimsy with dragons is bad. Gorgonzormu is such a funny concept and it works because his market stall of cheeses preserved and aged with Bronze time magic just works. But then most of the city is clearly built for the Dragonkin, not the dragons.
    Maybe dragons just don't need housing. What will a little rain do to them anyway?

  2. #18322
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    The dude didn't start the idea of an underground expansion. There has been a lot of speculation and "leaks" regarding the idea of going below the ground, for example using the undermine.

    It's also pretty much suggested by the current lore if you pay attention.

    • The Harbinger wants the world-soul - where is that? In the planet's core.
    • Iridikron is her lackey, and what is his element? Earth.
    • Thrall is on the poster for BlizzCon, and what is he? World Shaman and (at least former) Earth-warder.
    • We've run out of new continents to visit on Azeroth, and supposedly traveling with the pirates to the other side of the world isn't happening in this expansion.
    • The story suggest a major Void showdown is coming up next, and the Harbinger is gathering powerful essences for something. What for? Resurrect some ancient monstrosity perhaps?
    • The earthen of Khaz Algar is one of the major hints for future lore, and the Titan facility Uldaz sounds pretty dwafish. This fits with the book 'A Song of the Depths', where it is mentioned that the Harbinger has gathered the Children of the First Flesh, that are now toiling below. Why would this even be mentioned in a Dragonflight prophecy involving the current story, unless it had something to do with her plans?
    There are also a lot of hints that either ancient kalimdor was basically build on top of a pre existing continent or that the most primal continent sunk into the sea when the titans ordered the world.
    Xal'atath mentions "the scouring" and compares it to the cataclysm and the sundering. The forbidden reach lore book speaks of the sea giants creating kalimdor as either propaganda or unawareness of what lies beneath the waves. The author also talks about how the titans took away the real name of the land which they called kalimdor. The tomb of sargeras is build on top of something and its deepest chamber is very very deep in the earth.
    Then we get told "The Legion burrows deep here. If they burrow deeper, they may not like what they find." by knaifu.

    It could even be that this is avaloren and the assumption that it is simply a not yet found landmass on the back of azeroth is completely wrong.

  3. #18323
    TBH I liked Oribos more then Valdrakken. I got lost in the dragon city multiple times.

  4. #18324
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    He also posted this right before.



    https://twitter.com/towelthetank/sta...03278878789953

    If not Undermine, maybe a "Delves" feature for WoW? Randomly generated caves?
    That's interesting, because this popped up a few days ago for Warcraft Rumble;



    Mecha Kobolds, which I thought was rather strange, but its not so strange if we're talking about Kobolds in Undermine.

  5. #18325
    Quote Originally Posted by Baraden View Post
    BFA was the South Seas expansion - we're not getting that
    Really wish people would stop spreading this nonsense.

  6. #18326
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Imagine this. You dive into the Maelstrom, see the wound in the crust of the world and find Naga structures all the way to the depths and beyond. You pass through to a massive Naga city in a shallow underground ocean with massive spires rising above the water and the World Soul shining like a sun above you. Naga sea witches manipulate the ocean stretching massive tentacles of water that stretch all the way to the core, encircling it
    Sounds pretty plausible. They must've spent those 10K years on something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolicious View Post
    There are also a lot of hints that either ancient kalimdor was basically build on top of a pre existing continent or that the most primal continent sunk into the sea when the titans ordered the world.
    Xal'atath mentions "the scouring" and compares it to the cataclysm and the sundering. The forbidden reach lore book speaks of the sea giants creating kalimdor as either propaganda or unawareness of what lies beneath the waves. The author also talks about how the titans took away the real name of the land which they called kalimdor. The tomb of sargeras is build on top of something and its deepest chamber is very very deep in the earth.
    Then we get told "The Legion burrows deep here. If they burrow deeper, they may not like what they find." by knaifu.

    It could even be that this is avaloren and the assumption that it is simply a not yet found landmass on the back of azeroth is completely wrong.
    That's interesting. Although, are you sure the Scouring isn't a reference to the Scourge? I might have misunderstood that whisper. But now that I think about it, that seems a little silly. A 'scouring' isn't defined as an army of the undead marching across the land. The word is just vaguely similar to the Scourge, so I guess I glossed over it.

    We also have a bunch of other old quotes, such as:

    "Its surface blazes bright, masking shadows below."

    "Her heart is a crater, and we have filled it."

    "He gave himself to the deep places. He gave himself to me."

    "She will show you the way. Come... come. The hour approaches when all eyes shall be opened."

    "At the hour of her third death, she ushers in our coming."

    "This blade is more than a mere dagger. It is a torch that shall light our path forward."

    "Five keys to open our way. Five torches light our path."

    "Dat blade has shiny eye. Always watchin us. Why you no see it?"

    "It is ironic that the weakest of us may be the ultimate victor. C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, Y'Shaarj, and... well. Only one would remain to consume the world, that was always meant to be."

    "The master hungers...the Heart shall feed his waking dream..."

    "It appears the prison of N’zoth is not as strong as it once was. What you see is a tiny growth of the behemoth that may yet consume your world."

    "A pity it now lies dormant. But anything that slumbers can be awakened."

    "He calls from the depths, our herald has come,
    The great eye watches from the darkness,
    And it calls, she is the sacrificial lamb,
    In the dreaming city she will be slaughtered."

    Basically, I am 90% certain that the recurring theme of "Harbingers" is important in the context of the Void. A lot of their "NPCs" used that title over the years. Deathwing was a Harbinger, there were Twilight Dragon Harbingers in Endtime IIRC, Xal'atath is (presumably) a Harbinger, and so on. There's Harbinger Skyriss in the Arcatraz, Harbingers of the Void in Shadowmoon Valley, etc.

    Then there's also all those quotes about "usher in our coming", "torches to light our path forward", etc.

    I also think that Xal'atah is all but guaranteed to be the current Harbinger, to usher in the Hour of Twilight.
    Last edited by Worldshaper; 2023-09-20 at 11:46 AM.

  7. #18327
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    I'd have to agree, despite being joke races, goblins and gnomes have something that most of the other races have lost to time.... PERSONALITY.

    If they can make a "joke race" like Pandarens and expand their lore to where they aren't much of a joke anymore, why not the same for Goblins? (Gnomes already have some pretty depressing lore... literally 70% of their population in Gnomergan was decimated due to troggs and radiation and the ones that survived turned into Leper Gnomes driven to madness. Granted I don't like mechagnomes as an Allied Race (you can just slap those mechanical limbs on a regular gnome and you wouldn't miss anything)...but the concept of a Mechagnome is actually cool and probably only time WoW ever actually dives into the concept of transhumanism.)
    Because some posters on WoW forum get triggered when you bring up anything dealing with Gnomes and Goblins.

    The reality is that Undermine is one of the major locations of Warcraft. It really should be in the game as a place for players to visit, because there's really no place like it in the WC franchise. People are really being shortsighted when it comes to the potential this expansion could have. With Goblins and technology attached to the theme, you could really go pretty wild with the zone diversity. The WoW RPG describes it as follows;

    Undermine is the nefarious capital of the goblin's trade empire, the Trade Coalition. Located beneath and within Kezan, Undermine is the center of goblin civilization. It is connected to the island via a series of volcanic tunnels which were created by Mount Kajaro's volcanic and tectonic activities.[10][11][12]

    The trade princes each control their own private armies and trade fleets. As a result, Undermine is a busy place, as the goblin city goes about its business.

    There are some Horde and Alliance ambassadors present in the Undermine.[13]

    The main centers of population in Undermine are in volcanic caverns beneath Kezan. Secondary island caverns exist farther away, and the goblins have constructed tunnels of thick glass that lead to these smaller areas. Passing through these tubes means walking along the ocean's floor and looking out to see the colorful fish and hungry sharks nearby.[12] Bilgewater Port is linked directly to Undermine.[11]

    As the capital of goblin culture, Undermine teems with chaotic activity. Goblin alchemists and tinkers practice their crafts and set off explosions. Slave markets bustle in out-of-the-way places. Shops and businesses of all kinds are based here, and the headquarters of the Trade Coalition, the Venture Company and myriad other enterprises are within this city. In Undermine, you can find the extremes on both ends: reeking slave pens in one area, the trade princes' lavish palaces in another. Zovzik's shop is located in the city.

    Of particular interest is the fact that, wandering around Undermine, is a strange breed of a creature called hobgoblins. They resemble goblins, but are much taller and have purple skin.[14]
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Undermine

    Interestingly, an article came out 12 years ago that talked about future WoW expansion locations; Undermine, Pandaria, and Broken Isles. Undermine remains the only location on that list that we haven't visited yet.
    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/2011-...-pandaria.html
    Last edited by Teriz; 2023-09-20 at 11:40 AM.

  8. #18328
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCoin View Post
    Two (young?) people - looks more like the untitled survival game than Warcraft.
    Looks like somebody shopped a random black silhouette into it to me, to be honest.

  9. #18329
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Alright, I'll bite. What makes people think an underground expansion is likely?
    Is it the part where the human fights a Kobold in Elwynn? Because that seems like an extremely tenous link.
    Would a murloc be a hint at Ankoan being the main ally in an underwater expansion? A picture of booty bay a hint at Nightsquall creating a pirate empire in Pandaria?
    Not that I put any stock in Towelie whatsoever, but I find the human/kobold picture more indicative of a revamp than underground.

  10. #18330
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    Not that I put any stock in Towelie whatsoever, but I find the human/kobold picture more indicative of a revamp than underground.
    We could potentially get both. We got new zones alongside the cataclysm revamp.

  11. #18331
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Not at all but honestly that goes for all concepts. Imo they did not pull off Dragon Isles either.
    I still believe that the Dragon Isles should have been in the sky.

    Also think we should have gotten zones more distinctly themed around the Aspects.

    - Autumnal forest similar to Eversong, Ruby Sanctum, Vermillion Redoubt for Red.
    - Fantastical, mystical desert for Bronze with some smaller pocket dimensions bleeding out from various time ways.
    - Lush jungle for the Green.
    - Winter wonderland for the Blues with some of the Nexus architecture scattered throughout.
    - Mountainous region for the Black.

    I know that would have been very “theme park” and not to some peoples taste but I feel like that’s what most of us envisioned the Dragon Isles to be.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    We could potentially get both. We got new zones alongside the cataclysm revamp.
    I would prefer an underground expansion on its own, as well as South Seas. But I also would be happy with getting a revamp with the lines of Undermine, Tel’Abim, Plunder Isle, Khaz Algar and the Spider Kingdom as endgame zones.

  12. #18332
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    I still believe that the Dragon Isles should have been in the sky.

    Also think we should have gotten zones more distinctly themed around the Aspects.

    - Autumnal forest similar to Eversong, Ruby Sanctum, Vermillion Redoubt for Red.
    - Fantastical, mystical desert for Bronze with some smaller pocket dimensions bleeding out from various time ways.
    - Lush jungle for the Green.
    - Winter wonderland for the Blues with some of the Nexus architecture scattered throughout.
    - Mountainous region for the Black.

    I know that would have been very “theme park” and not to some peoples taste but I feel like that’s what most of us envisioned the Dragon Isles to be.
    My idea was that on the other side of the planet, there would be a huge thin titan tower rising from the sea (Uldorus) which lead to the World Soul (like Antorus did) and surrounding it would be 5 islands; one on the ground and four floating. These would be the Dragon Isles, the charge of the Dragonflights protecting Azeroth and they'd be invaded by N'zoth with separate forces against each isle (Qiraji, Nerubian, Mantid, N'zoth's own aquatic Aqir and then the Twilight Dragonflight). And ofc Odyn would have moved the Halls of Valor there now that they are unchained because he doesn't trust the flights to do their job. I'd have wanted this right after BfA.

  13. #18333
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    I would prefer an underground expansion on its own, as well as South Seas. But I also would be happy with getting a revamp with the lines of Undermine, Tel’Abim, Plunder Isle, Khaz Algar and the Spider Kingdom as endgame zones.
    That's a bit much. Undermine in of itself would constitute a continent with multiple zones. Tel'Abim, Gadgetzhan, Plunder Isle, and some made up islands could offer up more zones. I don't see a scenario where you would go from Northrend all the way down to the South Seas and then into the Eastern Kingdoms entirely under the surface.

    Potentially what we're looking at is Undermine being the starting hub and from there we go deeper into the planet. Possibly to a titan facility that could house the world soul or even be a prison for an old god that directly threatens the world soul. Blizzard could also bring in "The War" into the expansion giving us a mechanical threat from beneath the planet that potentially threatens Undermine and the titan facility. Not to mention whatever crazy shenanigans that Gallywix could be up to at this point.

    In short, Undermine supplies us with more than enough material for an expansion on its own.

  14. #18334
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    My idea was that on the other side of the planet, there would be a huge thin titan tower rising from the sea (Uldorus) which lead to the World Soul (like Antorus did) and surrounding it would be 5 islands; one on the ground and four floating. These would be the Dragon Isles, the charge of the Dragonflights protecting Azeroth and they'd be invaded by N'zoth with separate forces against each isle (Qiraji, Nerubian, Mantid, N'zoth's own aquatic Aqir and then the Twilight Dragonflight). And ofc Odyn would have moved the Halls of Valor there now that they are unchained because he doesn't trust the flights to do their job. I'd have wanted this right after BfA.
    Having BfA end with eternal palace and move on with an expansion where N'zoth attacks would have been the right path. Not that I didn't like 8.3 or shadowlands but nzoth didn't live up to its build up because of this. Let's hope they don't make the same mistake with Xal'atath.

  15. #18335
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    Having BfA end with eternal palace and move on with an expansion where N'zoth attacks would have been the right path. Not that I didn't like 8.3 or shadowlands but nzoth didn't live up to its build up because of this. Let's hope they don't make the same mistake with Xal'atath.
    Depends on how far ahead they planned. Maybe they never intended for N'Zoth to be the last Old God to consume Azeroth. That means they had to finish him off like a B-plot just like in every other expansion, with C'thun, Yogg-Saron, and (kind of) Y'shaarj. Basically the Old God story had to wrap up before 9.0, 10.0 and 11.0, so they could instead have Xal'atath become the one to usher in the Void to Azeroth.

  16. #18336
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    We could potentially get both. We got new zones alongside the cataclysm revamp.
    That's one of the main failings of Cataclysm though. What was the point of revamping zones if all you did with them was have some new levelling?
    A world revamp should use the revamped zones to actually have the endgame content in it, otherwise it's just a whole lot of effort for basically no gain.

    And that's also not to mention how it's effectively doubling the amount of work you have to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    Having BfA end with eternal palace and move on with an expansion where N'zoth attacks would have been the right path. Not that I didn't like 8.3 or shadowlands but nzoth didn't live up to its build up because of this. Let's hope they don't make the same mistake with Xal'atath.
    It was too crammed. And the patch just showed all the missed opportunities that came from it. The return of the Mantid for instance, but no time to explore the repercussions of that. Infected Titan facilities, but only for one quick scenario. Travelling around the world to famous Old God locations, but again only for one patch.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #18337
    well I'm still hoping against hope that Fyrakk manages to devouer the heart of Amirdrassil and then be infused by galakrond's essence. Because if he gets killed in 10.2 it would have mean that the whole plan of the incarnates up until now was useless thanks to Vyranoth.

    Iridikron felt right as an adversary because he doesn't underestimate its foes and he decided to gather power before striking especially for this reason.

    I understand that we need to win somehow but we fight Fyrakk when one foe changed team and the other is idling on the sidelines... if we kill the fire guy it would be a very weak victory where they plan ahead a lot and we just wing it without any effort

  18. #18338
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Alright, I'll bite. What makes people think an underground expansion is likely?
    Is it the part where the human fights a Kobold in Elwynn? Because that seems like an extremely tenous link.
    Would a murloc be a hint at Ankoan being the main ally in an underwater expansion? A picture of booty bay a hint at Nightsquall creating a pirate empire in Pandaria?
    Towellie saying people are too focused on "ABOVE the water" (mentioning South Seas), posting a cave and the kobold on twitter all in the same day.

    Could be a direct expansion hint, could be that cave exploring is a feature.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    well I'm still hoping against hope that Fyrakk manages to devouer the heart of Amirdrassil and then be infused by galakrond's essence. Because if he gets killed in 10.2 it would have mean that the whole plan of the incarnates up until now was useless thanks to Vyranoth.
    He will lose because the Nelves losing the tree again would be insanity.

    Iridikron left Vyranoth and Fyrakk in the dust to lose, Vyranoth picked up on this and swapped sides so she wouldn't end up like Fyrakk will.

  19. #18339
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    Yep, this humanization is also what puzzles me most about the theme. While the game itself is super enjoyable and alt friendly and the outdoor zones are well executed the main theme "dragons" could have been implemented a bit better. dragons are f*cking huge, massive, ancient creatures that live long and mostly EAT humans as snacks. Also spit fire and live in caves. What we see experience in those omni observer perspective are dialogues between elves with fancy armor talking about their feelings and the past. As players the dragons shift more often from human to dragon form but while I often fled from elite jarradins in zaralek I never thought "oh shit there is a dragon" while moving outdoor. Never.
    Just imagine you go into a dark cave to search for some quest giver/objective. You can barely see anything. Suddenly glowing eyes appear and "DRAGONname xyz is about to spit fire" on the screen. Either you gtfo or you are instant dead. Because eventually dragon fire should burn you to death i guess?
    Not that cataclysm would have been any better there but just look at this awesome trailer where this massive deathwing kills all goblins while emerging on azeroth (plus this awesome voice acting )

    While shadowlands story logic was very questionable with sylv and the jailor at least sylvanas had some danger vibes. Same as the maw. I died quite often, especially with poor geared/leveling alts.

    I hope they find a theme for the next xpac where villiains and danger is easier to excecute
    That's what happens when you insert identity politics bullshit into a video game.

  20. #18340
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See, they don't have to live in caves. But they should live somewhere. Valdrakken has all but one indoor space designed for dragons. It seems that WoW dragons are humanoids who can shapeshift into giant lizards instead of the opposite. How many of the buildings in the isles can two dragons fit in when crossing next to each other?
    Economics and statics. Since they can do it, it's more economical for them to use buildings in their visage form instead of building them ridiculously huge, which would also make it very difficult to keep them from just toppling over if somebody looks at them funny and lets them build something other than pyramids.

    This is something that actually does make sense.

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