1. #18381
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    And beyond those example we also had Koristrasza caring about some undead working with Quilboars, Chromie helping put some ghost to rest, all of theses just in classic alone. wow dragons have always had “concerns of an ant”.
    Again no.
    You give examples that were written ingame...which I've already condemned and in truth are meaningless.

  2. #18382
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terremer View Post
    Illidan or Gul'dan, it comes down to the same thing compared to what I'm saying
    Well the difference is that if Illidan was on the key art before the Legion announcement his presence would give a lot of stuff away. You know the Burning Legion is coming, and you know we’re getting demon hunters.

    Gul’Dan? Not so much. Especially since at the time we were still dealing with him in WoD.

    If you have Gazlowe or Gallywix in the key art, you know instantly that it’s Undermine, and you know we’re getting a Tinker class.

    Sorry but I don't really see anything relevant with the Deathwing/Zaralek comparison to Thrall
    So obviously anything is possible as long as we don't have the answer, but honestly I would be very surprised if it was Undermine
    Thrall and Neltharion were both Earth Warders. An expansion dealing with underground Azeroth would no doubt involve the elements. Thrall is WC’s top Shaman.

    With that said, this is all speculation based on a YT streamer.


    Absolutely, this makes much more sense.
    and apart from Thrall, there are also all the other clues that we have
    and absolutely nothing points to undermine, for now at least
    Unfortunately that same YT streamer said that revamp isn’t happening. So we’ll see soon enough.

  3. #18383
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Wanting a race to behave in a way that makes no logical sense for them to actually do is childish, if anything. Dragons are still fearsome creatures in WoW; they just aren't primal beasts.

    Your problem isn't that dragons are "human", your problem is that they aren't the edgy teenager's idea of imposing creatures.
    So ferocious:

  4. #18384
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    at least for some of them you shouldn't. Nozdormu and Ysera/Merithra have dominion over powers that make them think in a way that your character cannot fathom.

    Kalecgos should be able to view magic and arcane flows in ways that are beyond your character's grasp. Therefore he should be able to fight with magic spells that are almost uncounterable. (c.f. day of the dragon where Malygos even weakened manages to send a volley of spells that hurt Neltharion). In fact by using their own unique powers, any of the aspect are able to create mind bending spells, nozdormu has the ability to age an opponent.

    Alexstrasza and Ebyssian should be the ones that most people could understand but their knowledge and experience alone should make these beings hard to follow.

    Their position alone should also make them unapproachable as they would be ones to delegate and order all the work to followers and consorts that would carry the work to underlings. The devs used to represent them in this fashion before WotLK then when people were introduced to the aspects, the devs completely gave up on it. For some tasks like Dragon soul raid, I can understand but for almost everything else, it is just done wrong.
    I agree with much of this. Especially when one realizes that their very perceptions are beyond our own.

  5. #18385
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    You didn’t understand that Ony was trying to take over stormwind? That Nef was trying to make a new more powerful kind of dragon? Those in AQ were trying to stop C’thun? Ect.

    Dragons in wow have always been easily understandable.
    For that matter, an animal running on instincts is hardly "inscrutable motives", so that wouldn't work anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    No.
    They've only been written moronically.
    A being that is far smarter and wiser should never have the concerns of an ant.
    Wisdom and intelligence doesn't stop you from getting hungry or tired. Sorry, but the world doesn't work that way.

    What you're looking for is a completely different story. You want the dragons to be something they never were in the first place and something that is difficult for a human writer to even conceptualise.

  6. #18386
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Dragons had become humans.
    Everyone is humans. Just a different shade. Take the recent Night Elf heritage quest for example. Lysander, a 20 year old male night elf who we're stuck with, who talks about his feelings. They have tons of races to choose from to tell a story like this, but instead they choose the race that lives for thousands of years. It's literally a human with a different size ears and different shade of skin at this point. Not to mention the preachy "tradition changing" lesson that felt so forced throughout this quest.

    I swear, it's the same writer who wrote Pelagos and Talia. Has to be. No, Talia. I don't give a shit about your stupid gryphon. "Omg so relatable, woooow." That's not how you make a character interesting. Show me them doing something cool either through actions or dialogue and I'll care then. And then you can explain their whole damn backstory.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Your problem isn't that dragons are "human", your problem is that they aren't the edgy teenager's idea of imposing creatures.
    Compare dragons from Classic through Cata to DF's dragons and there is a massive difference.

  7. #18387
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    What you're looking for is a completely different story. You want the dragons to be something they never were in the first place and something that is difficult for a human writer to even conceptualise.
    It might be difficult to conceptualize, but that's why writers who want to preserve the grandeur and mystique of beings like dragons and Titans don't put them so heavily in focus.

  8. #18388
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniri View Post
    It might be difficult to conceptualize, but that's why writers who want to preserve the grandeur and mystique of beings like dragons and Titans don't put them so heavily in focus.
    Hard to do that in 20+ years game story. You slowly run out of different factions and at one point people would have enough of those mysterious beings and would want to know more about them.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  9. #18389
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Wisdom and intelligence doesn't stop you from getting hungry or tired. Sorry, but the world doesn't work that way.
    Your world prefers simplicity.
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    What you're looking for is a completely different story. You want the dragons to be something they never were in the first place and something that is difficult for a human writer to even conceptualise.
    You're right.
    And the only author I've read that had such dragons was Janny Wurts in her "War of Light and Shadow." Mortal creatures weren't significant at all.

  10. #18390
    I am Murloc! Grazrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Uh, I think Jaina got way more screentime than both Anduin & Sylvanas in BFA. When I think of BFA I think of Jaina & Saurfang.
    They just spent like a 100 hours of development time creating chromie time. A new leveling experience is the last thing the game needs. Leveling is currently the thing players complain about the least. If anything, a old world revamp would create a new version of it that is just for levels 70 - 80
    Sylvanas barley showed up in Bfa. Jaina had most focus til the end of the war campaign. Also it makes no sense to make the old world endgame content. My prediction of next expansion would be us visiting a new planet.

  11. #18391
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Hard to do that in 20+ years game story. You slowly run out of different factions and at one point people would have enough of those mysterious beings and would want to know more about them.
    It's hard if you want to do the "Epic Storytelling" approach and burn through your biggest mysteries and villains as quickly as possible. Not as hard if you took a slower pace and told more down to earth stories.

  12. #18392
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Compare dragons from Classic through Cata to DF's dragons and there is a massive difference.
    Classic dragon “I’m in love with a ghost”

    TBC dragon “I’m in love with the sun well”

    Wrath dragon “I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean”

    Cata dragon “ I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean X2”

    Difference doesn’t seem that massive.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-09-20 at 03:46 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #18393
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terremer View Post
    fortunately I talked about theme, and not about content (even if I cited the DH for Illidan)
    And Thrall fits an earth-based underground themed expansion.


    You extrapolate way too much

    Gul'dan represents Sargeras and the Burning Legion, so the theme was pretty obvious
    for the tinker, this doesn't confirm anything at all before the reveal
    Not necessarily. The only thing Gul’Dan represents for sure is demonic stuff, and we had expansions with demons without sargareas or a BL invasion.

    Illidan’s return on the other hand is definite BL invasion and definite DH class.


    personally I wouldn't bet my money on a streamer who apparently has nothing really concrete in his history but you are free to believe it!
    Again, we’re just speculating here, but there is multiple points of evidence supporting Blizzard going for an undermine expansion.

  14. #18394
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Classic dragon “I’m in love with a ghost”

    TBC dragon “I’m in love with the sun well”

    Wrath dragon “I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean”

    Cata dragon “ I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean X2”

    Difference doesn’t seem that massive.
    “Classic dragon - I’m in love with a ghost”

    That didn’t happen until Cataclysm. Our only dealings with dragons in classic were those that were world bosses or dungeon/raid bosses. Chromie being the outlier. They still possessed an air of superiority, mystery and ferocity about them there. The change in how they were presented happened during Wrath.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And Thrall fits an earth-based underground themed expansion.




    Not necessarily. The only thing Gul’Dan represents for sure is demonic stuff, and we had expansions with demons without sargareas or a BL invasion.

    Illidan’s return on the other hand is definite BL invasion and definite DH class.




    Again, we’re just speculating here, but there is multiple points of evidence supporting Blizzard going for an undermine expansion.
    Gul’dan isn’t indicative of the Legion? Mate, come on. This is next level reaching even for you.

    Our two major Legion expansions (WoD and Legion) Gul’dan was a major antagonist of. The only other prominent Legion expansion(moreso an Illidari expansion) was TBC and Gul’dan literally couldn’t be apart of it because he was dead. Even then, Blizzard still found ways of including him in some form.
    Last edited by Santandame; 2023-09-20 at 03:56 PM.

  15. #18395
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And Thrall fits an earth-based underground themed expansion.

    Again, we’re just speculating here, but there is multiple points of evidence supporting Blizzard going for an undermine expansion.
    I just think this is the furthest of stretches. There are soooo many themes that come before "underground" with Thrall.

    I know it's speculation, but there isn't a whole ton of indication that Blizzard would do an "undermine expansion". I mean, this entire subject came up from a comment Towellie made on stream, which is the strongest evidence as of yet.

    Even with "No pirates.", there's far more evidence of a seafaring expansion, more evidence of an Other Side of Azeroth and Titan expansion, and even more evidence for a revamp expansion (which I know, can be a feature amongst the rest).

    I really, really think Undermine would be awesome. I really hope they add it in the future. This is just a hell of stretch to make it a reality.

  16. #18396
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post

    Gul’dan isn’t indicative of the Legion? Mate, come on. This is next level reaching even for you.
    I didn’t say he wasn’t. I said it’s more ambiguous than Illidan being on the promo. You have to remember the context that key art was released in back in 2015. At the time, Gul’Dan was a villain in WoD, and we didn’t know where he escaped to after the end of HFC.

  17. #18397
    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I just think this is the furthest of stretches. There are soooo many themes that come before "underground" with Thrall.

    I know it's speculation, but there isn't a whole ton of indication that Blizzard would do an "undermine expansion". I mean, this entire subject came up from a comment Towellie made on stream, which is the strongest evidence as of yet.

    Even with "No pirates.", there's far more evidence of a seafaring expansion, more evidence of an Other Side of Azeroth and Titan expansion, and even more evidence for a revamp expansion (which I know, can be a feature amongst the rest).

    I really, really think Undermine would be awesome. I really hope they add it in the future. This is just a hell of stretch to make it a reality.
    Yeah, I’m struggling to follow Teriz on this. He was previously dead set on next expansion being a Lightbound / w Yrel invasion with his belief that Thrall on the key art indicated that (not sure how). Now he’s jumped ship on it being an underground/Undermine expansion next, with somehow Thrall being on the key art indicative of that - that being an even bigger stretch than him being indicative of Yrel.

  18. #18398
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Classic dragon “I’m in love with a ghost”

    TBC dragon “I’m in love with the sun well”

    Wrath dragon “I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean”

    Cata dragon “ I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean X2”

    Difference doesn’t seem that massive.
    But there's a difference in how they present themselves. DF has so many of them being silly and cutesy and stuff.

  19. #18399
    Let’s be totally honest we all know deep down whether want to admit it or not that next expansion is Avaloren or the other side of Azeroth with no more than 5 zones at max.

  20. #18400
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I wonder if Blizzard is going to expand support post-Augvoker. People speculated that they could add support specs to existing classes, but would Blizzard add a new class with a support spec in 11.0 right after Evokers? Perhaps a new class with a support spec for Mages, Hunters, and Shaman and a 4th role for group content.
    I think they'll conceptualize Support as a spectrum. Shadow Priests, Frost Mages, Survival Hunter, Feral druid, etc will probably fill the same current niche but may get more supportive damage buffs.

    That being said the Bard Class is definitely coming in 11.0 or 12.0

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