1. #19181
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, I think you’re not considering just how far Blizzard could take the theme. You could lay Undermine out like a modern city with downtown, industrial sector, Central Park, the slums, etc. and you’ll get a fairly good variety of locale just from that.

    Conversely, they could simply have it that certain trade princes control areas of the continent. It could be as pedestrian as a Goblin robber baron who controls the mines and has hordes of hobgoblins and troll slaves, to the Tinker’s Union where there’s biolabs and robots, to something crazy like a goblin version of Willy Wonka who controls a candy factory and turned an entire zone into a demented version of candy land.

    Hearthstone’s The Boomsday Project should show you how crazy Blizzard can go with a Goblin-based tech theme.

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    Sorry, I can’t read that.




    They did it with the Pandaren.
    They did what with Pandaren?

    Pandaren were not used as a comedic relief for the last 20 years before they were added.

    In fact, the only time Pandaren were actually used in a non-Easter Egg way, in Founding of Durotar, it was played in a straight, serious way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I hardly see issues with the tone as a matter of toxic masculinity insomuch as a desire to retain the general soul of the franchise. While much should be reasonably expected to have changed, we're at a point where the franchise simply doesn't feel like Warcraft: Dragonflight is tonally more analogous in my mind to a child-friendly spinoff like Snow Fight than Warcraft III. A representation of the matter as an absence of masculinity may be less accurate than a representation of the problem as an absence of tonal congruity with prior installments, and with a very modernized sense of excessive tonal cleanliness. I figure men and women alike with any interest in preserving what little is left of the franchise would appreciate seeing things get a little less sappy.
    Dragonflight (or the themes of it anyway, what people essentially complain about) is the logical follow-up from Warcraft 3, more so than Vanilla.

    There is not any more "tonal cleanliness" than in Warcraft 3. At the end of the day, Warcraft 3 is just as much "World of Peacecraft" as Dragonflight is. The game literally hammers you over the head with "Hey, guys, stop fighting AGAINST eachother, there is a big threat that you should fight against together!" which has been the theme for the last 5 expansions or so.

    The game literally ends with a cheesy Anime-esque defense mission, climaxing in a deus ex machina moment.

  2. #19182
    Dragonflight feeling too whimsical, playful and sappy is definitely a common critique and doesn't really have to do with masculinity (even if some people frame it that way, both for and against).

    I do think some of it may be intentional to set up a twist with Tyr. Like him killing Vyranoth.
    Last edited by Cheezits; 2023-09-19 at 10:28 PM.

  3. #19183
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    They did what with Pandaren?

    Pandaren were not used as a comedic relief for the last 20 years before they were added.

    In fact, the only time Pandaren were actually used in a non-Easter Egg way, in Founding of Durotar, it was played in a straight, serious way.


    6 years before MoP was announced.

    Goblins and Gnomes are staples of the fantasy genre. Chubby Pandas doing a parody of kung fu is not. Yet an expansion based on the latter is considered one of the best WoW expansions ever made.

  4. #19184
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post


    6 years before MoP was announced.

    Goblins and Gnomes are staples of the fantasy genre. Chubby Pandas doing a parody of kung fu is not. Yet an expansion based on the latter is considered one of the best WoW expansions ever made.
    Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

    I don't see how it's so hard to understand.

  5. #19185
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Dragonflight (or the themes of it anyway, what people essentially complain about) is the logical follow-up from Warcraft 3, more so than Vanilla.

    There is not any more "tonal cleanliness" than in Warcraft 3. At the end of the day, Warcraft 3 is just as much "World of Peacecraft" as Dragonflight is. The game literally hammers you over the head with "Hey, guys, stop fighting AGAINST eachother, there is a big threat that you should fight against together!" which has been the theme for the last 5 expansions or so.

    The game literally ends with a cheesy Anime-esque defense mission, climaxing in a deus ex machina moment.
    You're not wrong that Warcraft III actually created major negative externalities for the series going forward insofar as the faction conflict went. It introduced the idea that perpetual war isn't an ideal state of things, but failed to deliver that message in a sustainable way for the franchise as it would go on. However, a general message of cooperation and an ending that was admittedly a foreshadowing of things to come—that is, faction cooperation to take down a personality-deprived villain—did not undermine the core spirit of the franchise. Characters were allowed to be emotional without spending five minutes in a pre-rendered cinematic making sad eyes at the camera, the level of violence was well within what's to be expected from the series, the sillier moments were kept relatively subdued,—emphasis on "relatively", as Warcraft III was still not too subdued on that front, so that should really illustrate the magnitude of Dragonflight's tonal problems,—and there was a good level of general grit even on account of the ending and most of TFT hammering in a message of cooperation.

    Back on the cooperation bit, part of what helped may have been that any effort for peace and collaboration in Warcraft III was more going against the tide, while a sequence of in-story paradigm shifts have left it the status quo in modern Warcraft, which frankly makes the point feel less strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

    I don't see how it's so hard to understand.
    To be fair, MoP was by all means setting up for Dragonflight's tonal issues. Putting this kind of thing front-and-center was the worst part of an otherwise-good expansion. Its benefits were good worldbuilding, a feeling of adventure, and some interesting villains, while its excessive levity was arguably the worst part of it.
    "Wounds are for the desperate, blows are for the strong;
    balm and oil for weary hearts all cut and bruised with wrong.
    I forgive thy treason, I redeem thy fall;
    for iron—cold iron—must be master of men all!"


    You'll believe it when you see it for yourself.

  6. #19186
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

    I don't see how it's so hard to understand.
    Up until then, Pandaren were mostly seen as a joke. And i'd disagree with your other claim as well. Sure, they're commonly comic relief, but not exclusively. They do as much serious stuff when tech savvy people are needed as they do comedic when they aren't.

    Gallywix sure isn't funny when you actually think about what he did.

  7. #19187
    People shouldn't forget that players are antsy for factions (not war but factions at all) and that is playing into a lot of tonal complaints.

  8. #19188
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Gallywix sure isn't funny when you actually think about what he did.
    To be fair here, this is a matter of implication versus presentation. The latter typically wins out in fiction. Whatever his actions fundamentally would've caused, the presentation of his actions and their consequences have typically been comedic. The only exception to this would be if you consider BfA to be his fault, in which case the presentation of the war still oriented around serious characters and Gallywix's role in it was typically understated in the actual story, regardless of how much impact he actually had.
    "Wounds are for the desperate, blows are for the strong;
    balm and oil for weary hearts all cut and bruised with wrong.
    I forgive thy treason, I redeem thy fall;
    for iron—cold iron—must be master of men all!"


    You'll believe it when you see it for yourself.

  9. #19189
    I'm not against Undermine, I think a larger spotlight on Goblins and yes, even the inclusion of tinkers, would be a ton of fun. I just don't see that being their direction when it feels like every single expansion the community seems to veer back to world revamp & old world return. I think an Undermine expansion could be a ton of fun even just as a part of something bigger, but following Dragonflight as another adventure somewhere other than some of the key pillars of the game (old world, factions, races, etc.) is gonna disappoint a whooooole lot of people

  10. #19190
    Pandaren Monk Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Imagine if it's called The Dark Below.

    Anyway, I seriously doubt it's just The Undermine. First of all, that place is probably right below the surface, and second of all it is way too themed around Goblins and Trade Princes.

    We need to go deeper, into a new world.

    Think about what the Harbinger needs. The world-soul. The most direct path to it goes through the Wound. Once the sword disappears.

    We meet the Dwarves of Khaz Algar, and explore the lost Titan facility of Uldaz (sounds pretty dwarven, doesn't it).
    Last edited by Worldshaper; 2023-09-19 at 11:06 PM.

  11. #19191
    Mist of Pandaria used funny looking people with a focus on brewery (amongst a lot of traditions, etc.) to tell strong tales of war with a serious tone, ending by stating that war is a part of growing and even needed.

    Dragonflight took serious heavy characters with strong traits to tell saccharine stories ending by stating that everyone must be open-minded and selfless and that war should be avoided at all cost.

    For that I hope next expansion is focused on silly people. The story can only be of better quality.

  12. #19192
    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I'm not against Undermine, I think a larger spotlight on Goblins and yes, even the inclusion of tinkers, would be a ton of fun. I just don't see that being their direction when it feels like every single expansion the community seems to veer back to world revamp & old world return. I think an Undermine expansion could be a ton of fun even just as a part of something bigger, but following Dragonflight as another adventure somewhere other than some of the key pillars of the game (old world, factions, races, etc.) is gonna disappoint a whooooole lot of people
    I can see there being a return to factions, which will make people happy, and it would clearly involve some old player races. But yeah no revamp will piss people off every expansion until they do it.

  13. #19193
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

    I don't see how it's so hard to understand.
    Are you serious? When MoP was announced at BlizzCon Metzen had to yell at the unruly crowd and tell them it wasn’t a joke. Mainly because Pandaren were portrayed in a less serious manner for years.

  14. #19194
    An underground patch like Zaralek Cavern I can see, but not an entire expansion that is fully underground. You would lose a lot of sales to claustrophobes, who don't want to be trapped underground for 2 years. It would be the Maw all over again.

  15. #19195
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    An underground patch like Zaralek Cavern I can see, but not an entire expansion that is fully underground. You would lose a lot of sales to claustrophobes, who don't want to be trapped underground for 2 years. It would be the Maw all over again.
    Undermine wouldn't resemble the Maw or Zaralek.

    Like do people forget the concept of Warcraft Goblins?




  16. #19196
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Btw if we get a revamp, what do you expect has to change? let's go for minimal, just visual update
    I think Westfall should get a lake to cover the Raging Chasm. Echo Isles should look like an actual troll settlement with a proper port connection to Dazar'alor. The Loch Modan Dam and maybe the Thandol Span should be rebuilt. Forsaken should have a port! And I very much want the area that joins Quel'thalas and Lordaeron to be worked over. Stratholme Bay with a proper port and a proper Amani area. And I wish for some underground areas.
    Lakeshire being completely ravaged from the Scourge attacks in SL with John J Keeshan returning to clean up the undead... The Chasm in Westfall is actually growing in size due to elemental activity and probably the Primalists trying to cause trouble. Sentinel Hill is still not fully repaired (mostly because Vanessa Vancleef raided it and burned the whole settlement in Cata. [We never saw the resolution to that part.])

    A Pandaren discovers the Hot Springs in Winterspring and tries to make them into a travel destination by building an inn nearby. The goblins of Azshara have taken over Gallywix's Pleasure Palace and begun dismantling his metal face from the rocks (not because they hate Gallywix, but they wanna use the metal for scrap.)

    Felwood's corruption is slowly seeping into Ashenvale due to the work of the Satyrs. Ever since Teldrassil's destruction, many night elves are seeking alternative methods to save their race from dying... one of which is turning themselves into Satyrs which is how we're seeing more of them even with the Legion and Xavius gone.

    With the Botani in the Barrens, the oasis's scattered around the Barrens are starting to become rampant wild growths with the Botani trying to turn the vegetation into carnivores and are using the Centaurs to be turned into plant zombies like they did the Orcs in Gorgrond. The local Saberon show a rude disposition to the Botani and a few join the Horde to combat the ever-growing plants.. An intersecting bridge connecting the North and Southern Barrens was made.

    Stratholme is probably destroyed beyond repair at this point, but there is a slight chance that there are some scavengers and survivors left over... though it is deemed as a quarantine zone. The Blood Elves partnered up with the Cenarion Circle and some of the Argent Crusade to begin Ghostland's healing process and even starts to show signs of healing reaching to the East Plaguelands. On top of this, with the help of the Nightborne, Silvermoon is returning to its former glory (along with new ideas the Nightborne provided.)

  17. #19197
    Undermine could definitely have a fake sky, either through pollution or a big video screen.

    Khaz Algar I don't know about. Uldaz... probably not.

  18. #19198
    We back on the "fanfiction", head canon, roller coaster?

  19. #19199
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Undermine wouldn't resemble the Maw or Zaralek.

    Like do people forget the concept of Warcraft Goblins?
    Thematically it would look entirely different, absolutely, but it's the Argus argument all over again; can a full expansion of goblin aesthetic carry an expansion? The second they leave that aesthetic they teeter back into Zaralek and brings us back to that argument. The same look for a whole expansion can be nauseating, I'm already pretty sick of the dragon architecture and armor style they went with.

    Undermine worked into another expansion can be so so cool. These art pieces are incredible, and I think there would be a ton of success to come from it's addition in some form, I just don't think an expansion based around it is the answer

  20. #19200
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terremer View Post
    where does this come from? I really like!

    but yeah I imagine it being a huge city with buildings and a lot of variety multi-cultural neighborhoods

    in fact, if done right, this could be one of the best expansion ideas
    Hearthstone expansions Mean Streets of Gadgetzhan and Boomsday Project. HS expansions based around Goblins.

    Here's the other HS expansion Gnomes vs Goblins;


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