1. #19361
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    What you're looking for is a completely different story. You want the dragons to be something they never were in the first place and something that is difficult for a human writer to even conceptualise.
    It might be difficult to conceptualize, but that's why writers who want to preserve the grandeur and mystique of beings like dragons and Titans don't put them so heavily in focus.

  2. #19362
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniri View Post
    It might be difficult to conceptualize, but that's why writers who want to preserve the grandeur and mystique of beings like dragons and Titans don't put them so heavily in focus.
    Hard to do that in 20+ years game story. You slowly run out of different factions and at one point people would have enough of those mysterious beings and would want to know more about them.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  3. #19363
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Wisdom and intelligence doesn't stop you from getting hungry or tired. Sorry, but the world doesn't work that way.
    Your world prefers simplicity.
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    What you're looking for is a completely different story. You want the dragons to be something they never were in the first place and something that is difficult for a human writer to even conceptualise.
    You're right.
    And the only author I've read that had such dragons was Janny Wurts in her "War of Light and Shadow." Mortal creatures weren't significant at all.

  4. #19364
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Uh, I think Jaina got way more screentime than both Anduin & Sylvanas in BFA. When I think of BFA I think of Jaina & Saurfang.
    They just spent like a 100 hours of development time creating chromie time. A new leveling experience is the last thing the game needs. Leveling is currently the thing players complain about the least. If anything, a old world revamp would create a new version of it that is just for levels 70 - 80
    Sylvanas barley showed up in Bfa. Jaina had most focus til the end of the war campaign. Also it makes no sense to make the old world endgame content. My prediction of next expansion would be us visiting a new planet.

  5. #19365
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Hard to do that in 20+ years game story. You slowly run out of different factions and at one point people would have enough of those mysterious beings and would want to know more about them.
    It's hard if you want to do the "Epic Storytelling" approach and burn through your biggest mysteries and villains as quickly as possible. Not as hard if you took a slower pace and told more down to earth stories.

  6. #19366
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Compare dragons from Classic through Cata to DF's dragons and there is a massive difference.
    Classic dragon “I’m in love with a ghost”

    TBC dragon “I’m in love with the sun well”

    Wrath dragon “I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean”

    Cata dragon “ I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean X2”

    Difference doesn’t seem that massive.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-09-20 at 03:46 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #19367
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terremer View Post
    fortunately I talked about theme, and not about content (even if I cited the DH for Illidan)
    And Thrall fits an earth-based underground themed expansion.


    You extrapolate way too much

    Gul'dan represents Sargeras and the Burning Legion, so the theme was pretty obvious
    for the tinker, this doesn't confirm anything at all before the reveal
    Not necessarily. The only thing Gul’Dan represents for sure is demonic stuff, and we had expansions with demons without sargareas or a BL invasion.

    Illidan’s return on the other hand is definite BL invasion and definite DH class.


    personally I wouldn't bet my money on a streamer who apparently has nothing really concrete in his history but you are free to believe it!
    Again, we’re just speculating here, but there is multiple points of evidence supporting Blizzard going for an undermine expansion.

  8. #19368
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Classic dragon “I’m in love with a ghost”

    TBC dragon “I’m in love with the sun well”

    Wrath dragon “I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean”

    Cata dragon “ I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean X2”

    Difference doesn’t seem that massive.
    “Classic dragon - I’m in love with a ghost”

    That didn’t happen until Cataclysm. Our only dealings with dragons in classic were those that were world bosses or dungeon/raid bosses. Chromie being the outlier. They still possessed an air of superiority, mystery and ferocity about them there. The change in how they were presented happened during Wrath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And Thrall fits an earth-based underground themed expansion.




    Not necessarily. The only thing Gul’Dan represents for sure is demonic stuff, and we had expansions with demons without sargareas or a BL invasion.

    Illidan’s return on the other hand is definite BL invasion and definite DH class.




    Again, we’re just speculating here, but there is multiple points of evidence supporting Blizzard going for an undermine expansion.
    Gul’dan isn’t indicative of the Legion? Mate, come on. This is next level reaching even for you.

    Our two major Legion expansions (WoD and Legion) Gul’dan was a major antagonist of. The only other prominent Legion expansion(moreso an Illidari expansion) was TBC and Gul’dan literally couldn’t be apart of it because he was dead. Even then, Blizzard still found ways of including him in some form.
    Last edited by Santandame; 2023-09-20 at 03:56 PM.

  9. #19369
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And Thrall fits an earth-based underground themed expansion.

    Again, we’re just speculating here, but there is multiple points of evidence supporting Blizzard going for an undermine expansion.
    I just think this is the furthest of stretches. There are soooo many themes that come before "underground" with Thrall.

    I know it's speculation, but there isn't a whole ton of indication that Blizzard would do an "undermine expansion". I mean, this entire subject came up from a comment Towellie made on stream, which is the strongest evidence as of yet.

    Even with "No pirates.", there's far more evidence of a seafaring expansion, more evidence of an Other Side of Azeroth and Titan expansion, and even more evidence for a revamp expansion (which I know, can be a feature amongst the rest).

    I really, really think Undermine would be awesome. I really hope they add it in the future. This is just a hell of stretch to make it a reality.

  10. #19370
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post

    Gul’dan isn’t indicative of the Legion? Mate, come on. This is next level reaching even for you.
    I didn’t say he wasn’t. I said it’s more ambiguous than Illidan being on the promo. You have to remember the context that key art was released in back in 2015. At the time, Gul’Dan was a villain in WoD, and we didn’t know where he escaped to after the end of HFC.

  11. #19371
    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I just think this is the furthest of stretches. There are soooo many themes that come before "underground" with Thrall.

    I know it's speculation, but there isn't a whole ton of indication that Blizzard would do an "undermine expansion". I mean, this entire subject came up from a comment Towellie made on stream, which is the strongest evidence as of yet.

    Even with "No pirates.", there's far more evidence of a seafaring expansion, more evidence of an Other Side of Azeroth and Titan expansion, and even more evidence for a revamp expansion (which I know, can be a feature amongst the rest).

    I really, really think Undermine would be awesome. I really hope they add it in the future. This is just a hell of stretch to make it a reality.
    Yeah, I’m struggling to follow Teriz on this. He was previously dead set on next expansion being a Lightbound / w Yrel invasion with his belief that Thrall on the key art indicated that (not sure how). Now he’s jumped ship on it being an underground/Undermine expansion next, with somehow Thrall being on the key art indicative of that - that being an even bigger stretch than him being indicative of Yrel.

  12. #19372
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Classic dragon “I’m in love with a ghost”

    TBC dragon “I’m in love with the sun well”

    Wrath dragon “I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean”

    Cata dragon “ I don’t want to fight my brother but he’s being mean X2”

    Difference doesn’t seem that massive.
    But there's a difference in how they present themselves. DF has so many of them being silly and cutesy and stuff.

  13. #19373
    Let’s be totally honest we all know deep down whether want to admit it or not that next expansion is Avaloren or the other side of Azeroth with no more than 5 zones at max.

  14. #19374
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I wonder if Blizzard is going to expand support post-Augvoker. People speculated that they could add support specs to existing classes, but would Blizzard add a new class with a support spec in 11.0 right after Evokers? Perhaps a new class with a support spec for Mages, Hunters, and Shaman and a 4th role for group content.
    I think they'll conceptualize Support as a spectrum. Shadow Priests, Frost Mages, Survival Hunter, Feral druid, etc will probably fill the same current niche but may get more supportive damage buffs.

    That being said the Bard Class is definitely coming in 11.0 or 12.0

  15. #19375
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    “Classic dragon - I’m in love with a ghost”

    That didn’t happen until Cataclysm. Our only dealings with dragons in classic were those that were world bosses or dungeon/raid bosses. Chromie being the outlier. They still possessed an air of superiority, mystery and ferocity about them there. The change in how they were presented happened during Wrath.
    Damn you right, that ruins my almost matching lines.

    Though I’d say the change happened in tbc not wrath when we got a whole manga about how Kal was trying to bang the sun well in human form.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    But there's a difference in how they present themselves. DF has so many of them being silly and cutesy and stuff.
    That’s because there are so many more dragons then we ever had in the past, like not counting evil dragons we have had like what 25-30 named dragons in all of Classic-cata?

    When your expanding to try and show the whole of dragon kind and not just a couple dozen you need to give them varied personality’s or they become one note.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #19376
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Everyone is humans. Just a different shade. Take the recent Night Elf heritage quest for example. Lysander, a 20 year old male night elf who we're stuck with, who talks about his feelings. They have tons of races to choose from to tell a story like this, but instead they choose the race that lives for thousands of years. It's literally a human with a different size ears and different shade of skin at this point. Not to mention the preachy "tradition changing" lesson that felt so forced throughout this quest.

    I swear, it's the same writer who wrote Pelagos and Talia. Has to be. No, Talia. I don't give a shit about your stupid gryphon. "Omg so relatable, woooow." That's not how you make a character interesting. Show me them doing something cool either through actions or dialogue and I'll care then. And then you can explain their whole damn backstory.
    I've already told someone else. That guy looks like a hipster, not a Highborne:

  17. #19377
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    Let’s be totally honest we all know deep down whether want to admit it or not that next expansion is Avaloren or the other side of Azeroth with no more than 5 zones at max.
    I'm leaning this way with a colonization aspect to it. Not sure about the 5 zones max thing, but it tracks.

  18. #19378
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    “Classic dragon - I’m in love with a ghost”

    That didn’t happen until Cataclysm. Our only dealings with dragons in classic were those that were world bosses or dungeon/raid bosses. Chromie being the outlier. They still possessed an air of superiority, mystery and ferocity about them there. The change in how they were presented happened during Wrath.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Gul’dan isn’t indicative of the Legion? Mate, come on. This is next level reaching even for you.

    Our two major Legion expansions (WoD and Legion) Gul’dan was a major antagonist of. The only other prominent Legion expansion(moreso an Illidari expansion) was TBC and Gul’dan literally couldn’t be apart of it because he was dead. Even then, Blizzard still found ways of including him in some form.
    Not that Dragons weren't more aloof back in Vanilla, but even at their most aloof it always felt more like the Bronze Dragons simply didn't like people coming into their cool cave than it did them thinking us insignificant.

    You also seem to be generalizing a bit overall. Dragons came in all kinds back then. Some liked gold and dank caves. Some liked humans and wanted to help us.
    If your argument is that we have lost the nuance of dragons in that we don't see many outright antagonistic dragons then sure, but that doesn't seem to be it.

    The only thing they seem to have truly lost is the mystery. Them having a society was always hinted at, even if not to the same degree they have in the Dragon Isles.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #19379
    Yeah if next expansion is just Mists 2 and a brand new island again, but with factions, I may have to check out until the revamp. What a lame anniversary.

  20. #19380
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    I think they'll conceptualize Support as a spectrum. Shadow Priests, Frost Mages, Survival Hunter, Feral druid, etc will probably fill the same current niche but may get more supportive damage buffs.

    That being said the Bard Class is definitely coming in 11.0 or 12.0
    Bard still seems like a stretch to me. I cannot think of any big WoW heroes that embody the Bard theme, especially not in a way that evokes the DnD Bard that I think people imagine.
    Even Evokers are more about stretching the definition of a Dragon in order to make them playable than it is about Evokers having a long and stories history in WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Yeah if next expansion is just Mists 2 and a brand new island again, but with factions, I may have to check out until the revamp. What a lame anniversary.
    This is honestly the strongest argument for a world revamp to me.
    What a way to kill the anniversary buzz. New continent that players have only heard about in a hidden book in a dungeon I doubt many players ran more than once or twice.
    A continent filled with people we have no idea about, and never heard about until whenever the announcement is.

    The most interesting but about it currently is the idea that the Scarlet Crusade is there. And even that is just made up by players to extract the slimmest chance of engagement.

    Blizzard has had years to plan this anniversary, and I doubt they would just let it fizzle out with an idea based on a meme.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

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