Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Chickat]

I didn't read every page because there were so many since yesterday, but i guess general consensus now is that we're going somewhere through the dangerous sea and storms which noone was able to ship through?

Which means we will definitely see the Nightsquall which means pirates. Not as the main theme, but there will almost surely be some pirates.

[Jaggler]

Which means we will definitely see the Nightsquall which means pirates. Not as the main theme, but there will almost surely be some pirates.

I can totally see the Nightsquall/something similar as the "Dragonscale Expedition" of the next expansion. Getting us there, establishing a foothold and bringing some flavor.
Maybe they have a feud with another pirate crew which could be a minor/side antagonist.

[Santandame]

Agree that there is a good chance these tie into the new book lore, esp around the Eonar tree. I think they might be slightly more metaphorical - e.g. the dark waters not being literal water, but the forces of Azshara following after (presumably) Iridikron. 'Her dreams' may refer to the roots/Eonar's tears (basically the manifestation of Eonar's dream for the Tree continuing on), and a very clear message that they have been co-opted by the Old Gods.

N'zoth is quite explicit in using 'our', though, and I wonder whether he considers Xal and her merry band as necessarily aligned with him. I've been banging on about this for a while now, but it would be a real let down to see N'zoth's inevitable and shenanigans-filled return be followed by him joining up with Azshara and Xal, since there is evidently no love lost between them. Would be an interesting dynamic to see the void crew also encounter similar frictions in this strange new place that we do.

I would much prefer N’Zoth to have his own aims that align differently from the Void Lords of corrupting Azeroth. Almost that he forms his own personality and that he just hopes to rule Azeroth rather than corrupt it. That he believes he’s no one’s pawn.

Further to this I’d prefer that like Xal, when restored from the blade he sheds his lovecraftian form and takes on a humanoid appearance. But one devoid of any magic or power. Have him be the WoW version of Thrawn. No magic, no martial prowess, no supernatural powers. Just an incredibly intelligent and manipulative strategic genius who studies everyone and every situation so that he’s always prepared and has the upper hand. Sometimes even an unlikely ally against bigger threats only to go our separate ways when the job is done.

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Which means we will definitely see the Nightsquall which means pirates. Not as the main theme, but there will almost surely be some pirates.

Which I find brilliant because so many people took “no pirates” at face value.

[shieldslammer]

Iridikron. Like I wrote, I still fail to see what he wants to do when does have the attention of the Titans. That's what really irks me. He's a fly compared to an Old God. A molecule to the guy that ripped one out of the planet. Galakronds Essence can only be used as bait or a direct tool to get said attention. But I just don't see him ending up dying. Even if the reformed Titans don't end up powerful, I still just don't see him as a credible threat, when only the Aspects and Tyr took Galakrond down. What's his essence gonna do? I am more and more sold on the idea (not my idea of separating the Titans from eachother) that whatever he has in mind as revenge isn't a direct fight or direct revenge. It is deeper.

Maybe he intends to use something like a curse of the flesh to make the Titans mortal. And perhaps if they die, their souls won't be associated with Order any longer. Though the natural question is if it's that simple why didn't the Old Gods do it back when they were fighting the Titans. The other option is to use Azeroth to kill the Titans. But I think if anyone had that plan it would be Xalatath.

[Jaggler]

I sincerely hope we never visit another "Zereth" and never meet the First Ones.

Narrative cohesion is important to me, and I hate retcons as much as the next guy. I've been interested in Warcraft lore since WC3 and I've happily accepted questionable story/world-building decisions along the way, even my favourite lore expansion Legion had points I disliked. I never thought I'd actually be someone to support such a huge retcon, but here we are.

I hated BfA lore, it was awful. But at least it was fairly self-contained and we can move on from it.

Shadowlands lore, on the other hand, I legitimately would support them pretending never happened. The whole expansion. It commits the sin of not just being bad, but staining the entirety of Warcraft lore forever. The Jailor being behind everything. The First Ones just being Titans but more Titaner. The whole exploration and set-up of the Shadowlands themselves. The fact that the entire cosmos is apparently artificial and follows a paint-by-numbers grid-like ruleset. Danuser has honestly marked all lore that came before it and all lore that will follow.

I don't care what the next expansion is, as long as it has nothing to do with any of that.

I kind of agree.

Not in the sense that the Zereth are awful and we should pretend that it never happened. But more in the sense that that part of the lore should be the background noise of the backgroundnoise that is the cosmic chart. Something the titans were until Legion.

[lostsoup]

Agree that there is a good chance these tie into the new book lore, esp around the Eonar tree. I think they might be slightly more metaphorical - e.g. the dark waters not being literal water, but the forces of Azshara following after (presumably) Iridikron. 'Her dreams' may refer to the roots/Eonar's tears (basically the manifestation of Eonar's dream for the Tree continuing on), and a very clear message that they have been co-opted by the Old Gods.

N'zoth is quite explicit in using 'our', though, and I wonder whether he considers Xal and her merry band as necessarily aligned with him. I've been banging on about this for a while now, but it would be a real let down to see N'zoth's inevitable and shenanigans-filled return be followed by him joining up with Azshara and Xal, since there is evidently no love lost between them. Would be an interesting dynamic to see the void crew also encounter similar frictions in this strange new place that we do.

I think N'zoth coming back inside the Blade of the Black Empire and sneakily helping us get rid of Xal'atath would make sense. He hold us in high regards, since after his servant Uu'nat called us "worthy", he warned us about not only the Shadowlands but the same "what is to come" that the Jailer was talking about. Maybe beating that greater threat is his primary concern and he sees creating a void Titan by corrupting Azeroth's world soul as just one possible way to win that battle, so aiding us could be a viable alternative.

[Chickat]

And what is a good time for Taylor Swift memes?

All the time is a good time for Taylor Swift memes. I recently became a Swifty btw. Didn't realize how many of her songs are good, especially the ones off of her more recent less poppy albums.

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"As suspected the dream is just titan ordered rather than created. I wouldn't be surprised at this point if the titans are the first ones and they just wiped their own minds to to become part of the balance."

I get this is popular among peoples headcanons, but this needs to stop, seriously. The Titans and the First Ones are completely different. SL makes this difference so many times, I am surprised y'all are still lost on this ordeal.

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"Sorry we cancelled and re-wrote most of the expansion"

Is this even a thing or are y'all just spewing headcanon?

Well Titans and First Ones are both Order aligned in some way. Its definitely possible the Titans are connected to the First ones in a way that the other cosmic big boys aren't. Not saying they are the same thing, but perhaps the First Ones took special care in creating the Titans or whatever.

[Viridiel]

Is it at all possible that the Elemental Plane physically corresponds to the other side of the planet? The Plane was created by the "Storm God" Ra, so it wouldn't be surprising if he created a permanent storm to prevent anyone from reaching the place where the Elemental Plane is sealed. Iridikron wanting to go there to shatter the seal and release the elements makes a lot of sense.

I'm just not really sure how to reconcile it with the fact that Deepholm is metaphysically "inside" the Maelstrom.

[Santandame]

All the time is a good time for Taylor Swift memes. I recently became a Swifty btw. Didn't realize how many of her songs are good, especially the ones off of her more recent less poppy albums.

I did too after not getting it for years. There’s a reason she’s the biggest star on the planet and no hyperbole when all is said and done years from now she will likely go down as one of the greatest music stars of all time because of her contribution, likely top three alongside The Beatles and Michael Jackson. Folklore is my poison but I’m a sucker for pretty much all of her stuff now.

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I think N'zoth coming back inside the Blade of the Black Empire and sneakily helping us get rid of Xal'atath would make sense. He hold us in high regards, since after his servant Uu'nat called us "worthy", he warned us about not only the Shadowlands but the same "what is to come" that the Jailer was talking about. Maybe beating that greater threat is his primary concern and he sees creating a void Titan by corrupting Azeroth's world soul as just one possible way to win that battle, so aiding us could be a viable alternative.

I would prefer that his goals weren’t aligned with other Old Gods and Void Lords, that his are inherently selfish and to his own liking. Have him be someone fascinated with mortal affairs and life, wanting to rule and live amongst us as our ruler as opposed to corruption.

[Chickat]

I did too after not getting it for years. There’s a reason she’s the biggest star on the planet and no hyperbole when all is said and done years from now she will likely go down as one of the greatest music stars of all time because of her contribution, likely top three alongside The Beatles and Michael Jackson. Folklore is my poison but I’m a sucker for pretty much all of her stuff now.

Yeah, im still not a huge fan of her early country stuff, but Red onwards shes great. Folklore is the best. But perhaps we should end the conversation here. Id hate for us to get in trouble for off topic discussion.

[Myrrh]

I would much prefer N’Zoth to have his own aims that align differently from the Void Lords of corrupting Azeroth. Almost that he forms his own personality and that he just hopes to rule Azeroth rather than corrupt it. That he believes he’s no one’s pawn.

Further to this I’d prefer that like Xal, when restored from the blade he sheds his lovecraftian form and takes on a humanoid appearance. But one devoid of any magic or power. Have him be the WoW version of Thrawn. No magic, no martial prowess, no supernatural powers. Just an incredibly intelligent and manipulative strategic genius who studies everyone and every situation so that he’s always prepared and has the upper hand. Sometimes even an unlikely ally against bigger threats only to go our separate ways when the job is done.

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Which I find brilliant because so many people took “no pirates” at face value.

This is what makes me sad about the recent Xal speculation of returning to her OG form... like, her mobility is actually somewhat terrifying for an eldritch horror. Very Nyarlathotep-esque. Though in contrast to your thoughts, I probably see Xal more as the lone wolf aspiring to a higher purpose (especially after her apparent betrayal), with N'zoth playing the part of the more traditional old god - but ideally with much more emphasis on schemes rather than his poor showing in 8.3.

Honestly though I will settle for N'zoth and Xal locked in a game of 5d chess trying to twist each other's schemes to ultimately favour themselves.

[Chickat]

BfA expansion reveal with the cinematic and features trailer was extremely hyped. I don’t see how anyone could feel meh about it. We were all talking about how it was likely going to be the best expansion to date. I don’t recall anyone criticising it. It’s a shame how the expansion panned out, but I actually enjoyed BfA as a whole for the most part despite it not living up to the insane levels of hype.

I was pretty underwhelmed mostly because I dont really care about Allied races, and I was really hoping for a world revamp at the time.

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I know this may sound a bit conceited but I think most expansion speculation and leaks these days originate here. The site in general may have fallen behind but this thread is always extremely active and I find streamers often very much repeat our speculation page by page.

Yeah this is one of if not THE breaking lore and info wow threads on the internet. I always know about stuff days before any youtuber makes a video about them. Most youtubers literally just read stuff here or WoWhead and make a video using our discussions. Which is fine I suppose, but we are definitely on the forefront of WoW information.

[Jaggler]

Is it at all possible that the Elemental Plane physically corresponds to the other side of the planet? The Plane was created by the "Storm God" Ra, so it wouldn't be surprising if he created a permanent storm to prevent anyone from reaching the place where the Elemental Plane is sealed. Iridikron wanting to go there to shatter the seal and release the elements makes a lot of sense.

I'm just not really sure how to reconcile it with the fact that Deepholm is metaphysically "inside" the Maelstrom.

I think that is more due to the fact that the Maelstrom is kind of like a huge "weakpoint" that was used by Deathwing to break through the Elemental plane. I don't think the elemental planes have a real physical place anywhere. It would also kinda defeat the point of the elemental planes if they were just some place on Azeroth.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Which means we will definitely see the Nightsquall which means pirates. Not as the main theme, but there will almost surely be some pirates.

Could be, but not via the boat/ship through water but through the sky ships with stormriders being our navigators or something like that.

[Nibelheimy]

From my understanding the elemental planes are a titan made prison that is not physically in or on our world. It is a constructed realm that has been described as tiered with fire and earth in the centre, air above and water below. It is why when we kill elements on our planet, they return back to those specific planes.

Iridikron destroying the planes themselves to remove some titan imposed order and return the elementals to our reality has been a pet theory of mine this expansion. Having to learn to live alongside them or conquer them could be interesting.

Maybe we'd need to go to Avaloren/Khaz'algar with a famous shaman to find out where all the spirit element has gone. Redistributing that would stop the elementals chaotic nature

[Wangming]

Maybe he intends to use something like a curse of the flesh to make the Titans mortal. And perhaps if they die, their souls won't be associated with Order any longer. Though the natural question is if it's that simple why didn't the Old Gods do it back when they were fighting the Titans. The other option is to use Azeroth to kill the Titans. But I think if anyone had that plan it would be Xalatath.

Could be, but killing a planet-sized gigachad is a bit more complicated than making them mortal if comparatively your are the size of a toenail to them.
See this is why the constant one-uping of threats is stupid. The power creep just makes it dumb. Let's just find someone who is a personal threat to the player and fight whatever interesting plan they have against us.

[Samin]

Could be, but not via the boat/ship through water but through the sky ships with stormriders being our navigators or something like that.

If Stormriders are Navigators, does that mean the Algarian Stormrider mount is us just sitting on the shoulders of a Night Elf pirate?

[Nymrohd]

An Island expedition type thing for different afterlives and one off quests with lore characters of the past would have been neat. Expand on it with every patch and we end up with 10-20 different Shadowlands realms even if the pocket of those realms was small.

Or instead of Torghast being variations on the same theme, it could have send its chains and GRABBED pieces of afterlives and we could have defended the natives, including people we know or have heard of, from the Jailer's forces. Imagine if we fought beside Cairne to save an animist afterlife (filled with spirit creatures) or some mighty elven city ruled by Dath'remar or even a warlike afterlife with Toranaar in it (though imo Toranaar should have been one of the Maldraxxi dukes).

[Wangming]

Yeah, im still not a huge fan of her early country stuff, but Red onwards shes great. Folklore is the best. But perhaps we should end the conversation here. Id hate for us to get in trouble for off topic discussion.

Nah, it is all good. Taylor memes are a tradition at this point. We need those.

[Raetary]

Is it at all possible that the Elemental Plane physically corresponds to the other side of the planet? The Plane was created by the "Storm God" Ra, so it wouldn't be surprising if he created a permanent storm to prevent anyone from reaching the place where the Elemental Plane is sealed. Iridikron wanting to go there to shatter the seal and release the elements makes a lot of sense.

I'm just not really sure how to reconcile it with the fact that Deepholm is metaphysically "inside" the Maelstrom.

The elemental planes are not a physical location on Azeroth, they are pocket realities created by Ra and Freya.
Helya used the same magic to seal away the Halls of Valor to piss off Odyn.

The Maelstrom essentially just acts as a portal to Deepholm, it's not actually tied to Deepholm beyond that.