Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Has it been explicitly stated yet it's on the other side of the planet, and I'm just behind the updates, or is that just an assumption based on the fact there's not much available space remaining on our side of Azeroth's face?

We know it was outside the original Kalimdor landmass. So it cannot be between them in the Maelstrom side; it has to be on the opposite side. It COULD potentially be far to the south of them but I think that would place it near the pole; I think when we see Azeroth as a globe, the continents both cross the equator (but I am not sure and I cannot check right now).

[AOL Instant Messenger]

We know it was outside the original Kalimdor landmass. So it cannot be between them in the Maelstrom side; it has to be on the opposite side. It COULD potentially be far to the south of them but I think that would place it near the pole; I think when we see Azeroth as a globe, the continents both cross the equator (but I am not sure and I cannot check right now).

Ahhh, that's fair enough. I suppose with that accounted for, the most sensible, space-saving option would be to put it on the other side. The other side of Azeroth's also been something we've wanted to explore for a while, so I'm certainly looking forward to seeing it.

[Nymrohd]

I almost hate it as much as people pretending Lovecraftian shit isn't the most boring thing imaginable and simply does not work in a video game.

There are really many ways to do Lovecraftian horror. Sure you can go with verbose prose and the horror of dissociative psychosis which is at the core of "cosmic" horror which is not really easy to do in a video game (it can be done, just not in the MMORPG medium). But you can also go with the angle of "insanity be exposure to evil". They absolutely could do a cinematic when we peer into N'zoth's brain and see a classic "EVIL" montage (body horror, rape, cannibalism on a mass scale etc). Open your mind to the Void and witness the possibilites of flesh or something like that. For me that is the central theme of the Old Gods, FLESH. They are masses of flesh, the environment arounds them looks like it is made of flesh and it is suffering, they inflicted the curse of flesh. The purple energies and tentacles are so secondary. Their evil comes in inflicting not just mortality (which is not evil in itself) but also the trauma that comes with a form of flesh.
At least that's how I'd approach them.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

There are really many ways to do Lovecraftian horror. Sure you can go with verbose prose and the horror of dissociative psychosis which is at the core of "cosmic" horror which is not really easy to do in a video game (it can be done, just not in the MMORPG medium). But you can also go with the angle of "insanity be exposure to evil". They absolutely could do a cinematic when we peer into N'zoth's brain and see a classic "EVIL" montage (body horror, rape, cannibalism on a mass scale etc). Open your mind to the Void and witness the possibilites of flesh or something like that. For me that is the central theme of the Old Gods, FLESH. They are masses of flesh, the environment arounds them looks like it is made of flesh and it is suffering, they inflicted the curse of flesh. The purple energies and tentacles are so secondary. Their evil comes in inflicting not just mortality (which is not evil in itself) but also the trauma that comes with a form of flesh.
At least that's how I'd approach them.

That is actually not a bad alternative approach—we'd have to expunge the second of the aforementioned horrors in your proposed montage on account not of concerns about the rating or sensitive content, but merely due to the probable unavailability of a cameo by Alex Afrasiabi, but I otherwise have to say I could see that working out. I'm not usually the biggest fan of buckets of blood and gore in horror, but they can serve their purpose perfectly well, and some good old-fashioned disturbing imagery to play at the more primordial instincts could be a nice way of communicating horror in a fashion to which the genre is more conducive. Of course, my implication was never that it had to be subtle in the first place—rather, my primary point was that the portrayal of N'Zoth was so flawed due to its excessive humanization of him, and the verbosity of the rewritten dialogue wasn't what I wanted to highlight. I had hoped instead to demonstrate how N'Zoth could be more effectively portrayed as an alien force than a fairly unimpressive typical WoW villain with a squid saying all his dialogue.

But, I digress. I'm far from unreceptive to this solution, and it could be fun to explore. I recall this sort of thing was more plentiful in the olden days of WoW, but has sort of fizzled off. I also have to agree very strongly on the front of emphasizing the Curse of Flesh and its consequences as a nice way of effectively tying their themes, history, and presentation together.

[Nymrohd]

And I'd say WoW already has done horror and done it well. Krastinov was horror. Thaddius was horror. Heck Brennadam was horror.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

And I'd say WoW already has done horror and done it well. Krastinov was horror. Thaddius was horror. Heck Brennadam was horror.

The prospect of playing up the visceral angle of the Old Gods has got my gears turning now, I confess, and I could see how that could especially work in connection to N'Zoth, who always had the most undefined theme of the Old Gods anyway. It is not difficult to envision an alternative variant of N'Zoth with a sort of sensory theme—associating N'Zoth with an overarching theme of indulgence, degeneracy, and miscellaneous such evils of the flesh would be an excellent means by which to tie him into the personality of certain agents of his (viz. Azshara) and to effectively distinguish him from his predecessors. It would give him a far more well-defined personality than the personality he was portrayed with in BfA, and could make for an extraordinarily memorable and, perhaps, disturbing antagonist. It would also allow Blizzard to split the difference and maintain all that interpersonal interaction necessary for an expansion antagonist without sacrificing his nature—perhaps in lieu of the dissociative and impersonal nature I advocated for, N'Zoth could maintain his status more effectively as a cosmic horror-type villain by acting as Nyarlathotep did, being something to bridge the gap. Such a theme of degeneracy and indulgence would especially suit him as the evident liaison of the Old Gods, whose machinations are most predicated on anthropomorphic agents, and perhaps would give him something to distinguish him from other intelligent (or allegedly-so) antagonists we've encountered in the past.

[Wangming]

Beyond that, the Old Gods shouldn't be humanized. They are not supposed to be human-like villains.

Well duh. They are old and they are gods. They are not meant to be relatable or even understandable. They should give off vibes like Sovereign on Virmire. Mass Effect 3 giving the Reapers a very understandable human goal was a huge mistake. Not sure I even like knowing where Old Gods come from and knowing a plan for them beyond being creepy and subversive.

- - - Updated - - -

Writing is not wholly subjective though. Danuser has a degree in English literature, and has decades of history in writing.

Decades of history writing rule of cool maybe. People can pin bad decisions on Afrasiabi if they like, the guy probably deserves all the hate he gets, but the fact remains that as Danuser got promoted to higher and higher positions the story didn't improve and instead just added stuff that made you scratch your head. Meanwhile, the only complex villain that was original to WoW and not a character already established, was killed in Vanilla.
Now I'm not saying Danuser doesn't have strength as a writer. But subtlety, complex villains, grey morality or cool twists are not among them.

- - - Updated - - -

And I'd say WoW already has done horror and done it well. Krastinov was horror. Thaddius was horror. Heck Brennadam was horror.

I'd say Drustvar was horror, but a different kind. Just the atmosphere of it all. You being alone in the dark cold woods with that ominous music in the background. Sometimes you don't even need writing to be creepy.

[Nymrohd]

I'd say Drustvar was horror, but a different kind. Just the atmosphere of it all. You being alone in the dark cold woods with that ominous music in the background. Sometimes you don't even need writing to be creepy.

Sometimes? Writing is usually not the best way to be creepy. Music and visuals are far better at evoking horror. That's the problem with Blizzard, they are quite bad at "show, don't tell". Drustvar had body horror, had a creepy child and the proper mood. But when it comes to old gods, they have told us too much and showed us not nearly enough. C'thun was far creepier when you find that night elf lady saying crazy things in the middle of a bug cave in Silithus than when you found him and he was just a huge eyeball. Yogg and N'zoth were never really scary at all, just big monsters.

[Makorus]

Well duh. They are old and they are gods. They are not meant to be relatable or even understandable. They should give off vibes like Sovereign on Virmire. Mass Effect 3 giving the Reapers a very understandable human goal was a huge mistake. Not sure I even like knowing where Old Gods come from and knowing a plan for them beyond being creepy and subversive.

- - - Updated - - -



Decades of history writing rule of cool maybe. People can pin bad decisions on Afrasiabi if they like, the guy probably deserves all the hate he gets, but the fact remains that as Danuser got promoted to higher and higher positions the story didn't improve and instead just added stuff that made you scratch your head. Meanwhile, the only complex villain that was original to WoW and not a character already established, was killed in Vanilla.
Now I'm not saying Danuser doesn't have strength as a writer. But subtlety, complex villains, grey morality or cool twists are not among them.

- - - Updated - - -



I'd say Drustvar was horror, but a different kind. Just the atmosphere of it all. You being alone in the dark cold woods with that ominous music in the background. Sometimes you don't even need writing to be creepy.

It's because they are writing a video game. When writing a video game, especially an MMO, you have to write a certain way.

Casting pearls before swines and all that. 90% of the playerbase would consider Arthas standing somewhere randomly in the Shadowlands to be good writing lmao

[Sondrelk]

Has it been explicitly stated yet it's on the other side of the planet, and I'm just behind the updates, or is that just an assumption based on the fact there's not much available space remaining on our side of Azeroth's face?

It's just speculation so far, but it fits the bill perfectly given what we know.
For one we know that Avaloren was seemingly not on the supercontinent Kalimdor given mentions of ships travelling there. And the mention of no ships returning sound eerily similar to no ships returning after sailing beyond the map we have of Azeroth now.

Now that being said, it could be closer to the current map. The Dragon Isles was also a larger continent that was originally not a part of ancient Kalimdor, so it's not like it's impossible. It just feels likely given what we know.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

It's just speculation so far, but it fits the bill perfectly given what we know.
For one we know that Avaloren was seemingly not on the supercontinent Kalimdor given mentions of ships travelling there. And the mention of no ships returning sound eerily similar to no ships returning after sailing beyond the map we have of Azeroth now.

Now that being said, it could be closer to the current map. The Dragon Isles was also a larger continent that was originally not a part of ancient Kalimdor, so it's not like it's impossible. It just feels likely given what we know.

As I said to my prior interlocutor, that's all perfectly fair. I'm certainly looking forward to going there, if so, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who's always been quite fascinated by what's back there.

[Sondrelk]

Sometimes? Writing is usually not the best way to be creepy. Music and visuals are far better at evoking horror. That's the problem with Blizzard, they are quite bad at "show, don't tell". Drustvar had body horror, had a creepy child and the proper mood. But when it comes to old gods, they have told us too much and showed us not nearly enough. C'thun was far creepier when you find that night elf lady saying crazy things in the middle of a bug cave in Silithus than when you found him and he was just a huge eyeball. Yogg and N'zoth were never really scary at all, just big monsters.

I think that is the limitation of the game. The artstyle as well as the mechanics of this being a raiding focused experience.
Both C'thun and even more so Yogg-Saron were scary in the buildup. Going deeper into their lair with the music and ambience really selling that you were not supposed to be there.
After all that its still not that easy to make a giant head that scary, even if it has mouths instead of eyes.

Fighting them will in a sense always be a letdown. Even after the buildup tends to be stellar.

[Varodoc]

Well duh. They are old and they are gods. They are not meant to be relatable or even understandable. They should give off vibes like Sovereign on Virmire. Mass Effect 3 giving the Reapers a very understandable human goal was a huge mistake. Not sure I even like knowing where Old Gods come from and knowing a plan for them beyond being creepy and subversive.

- - - Updated - - -



Decades of history writing rule of cool maybe. People can pin bad decisions on Afrasiabi if they like, the guy probably deserves all the hate he gets, but the fact remains that as Danuser got promoted to higher and higher positions the story didn't improve and instead just added stuff that made you scratch your head. Meanwhile, the only complex villain that was original to WoW and not a character already established, was killed in Vanilla.
Now I'm not saying Danuser doesn't have strength as a writer. But subtlety, complex villains, grey morality or cool twists are not among them.

- - - Updated - - -



I'd say Drustvar was horror, but a different kind. Just the atmosphere of it all. You being alone in the dark cold woods with that ominous music in the background. Sometimes you don't even need writing to be creepy.

It's funny how you reply "well duh" when people in this very thread think N'Zoth should be a morally grey double agent of the Light lmfao. Evidently, these guys here didn't quite get the memo that N'Zoth is an eldritch horror and these villains usually aren't relatable.

The Old Gods are objectively better than the Reapers from Mass Effect because they were created by the Void Lords, who are also eldritch horrors, and their nature even terrified Sargeras. Meanwhile, the Reapers from Mass Effect were created by a literal toddler, you don't get any more pathetic than that.

[Wangming]

It's because they are writing a video game. When writing a video game, especially an MMO, you have to write a certain way.

Oh damn. Someone better tell Ishikawa that her writing is not appropriate for MMORPGs. Granted she got nearly universal praise for the expansions she wrote from players and critics alike, so maybe it is too late to tell her that.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Oh damn. Someone better tell Ishikawa that her writing is not appropriate for MMORPGs. Granted she got nearly universal praise for the expansions she wrote from players and critics alike, so maybe it is too late to tell her that.

And outside the realm of MMORPGs, let's not forget the likes of FromSoftware.

[Wangming]

It's funny how you reply "well duh" when people in this very thread think N'Zoth should be a morally grey double agent of the Light lmfao. Evidently, these guys here didn't quite get the memo that N'Zoth is an eldritch horror and these villains usually aren't relatable.

The Old Gods are objectively better than the Reapers from Mass Effect because they were created by the Void Lords, who are also eldritch horrors, and their nature even terrified Sargeras. Meanwhile, the Reapers from Mass Effect were created by a literal toddler, you don't get any more pathetic than that.

And the toddler was created by gigantic sea monsters. But I digress.
You are correct that some people still think Old Gods are meant to be relatable and even redeemable, but I jusz zone those comments out.

- - - Updated - - -

And outside the realm of MMORPGs, let's not forget the likes of FromSoftware.

Or better yet people like Yoko Taro, who actually uses the medium to his advantage. Like how playthrough after the first one reveal additional information to you actually not present in the first one. new info that mostly makes you cry and question whether you are the good guy or not.

[Nymrohd]

You are correct that some people still think Old Gods are meant to be relatable and even redeemable, but I jusz zone those comments out.

For quite a few people it seems the thought process is "Void is opposed to Light. Light is authority (and perhaps organized religion). All authority is evil therefore Light is evil, ergo Void should be good or at least have the potential to be good."

[AOL Instant Messenger]

For quite a few people it seems the thought process is "Void is opposed to Light. Light is authority (and perhaps organized religion). All authority is evil therefore Light is evil, ergo Void should be good or at least have the potential to be good."

Ugh, isn't that a grating recurrence? It's insufferable to me for quite a few reasons, chief of which are because it is symptomatic of the modern proclivity in writing towards confusing deconstruction and destruction and because it's no less one-dimensional and idiotic to determine that all authority, no matter its source or nature, is evil in its efforts to prevent you from doing whatever you want without consequence. Evidently, there can be no superior wisdom to one's own intuition, no matter how extreme one may be in their undertakings or motivations, nor how wise certain other powers might be. Rather than render authority subject to inquiry so as to separate the just from the unjust, isn't it so much simpler (for simplicity always compensates for efficacy, truly) to register all sources of authority of any kind as objectively evil?

[Nymrohd]

Ugh, isn't that a grating recurrence? It's insufferable to me for quite a few reasons, chief of which are because it is symptomatic of the modern proclivity in writing towards confusing deconstruction and destruction and because it's no less one-dimensional and idiotic to determine that all authority, no matter its source or nature, is evil in its efforts to prevent you from doing whatever you want without consequence. Evidently, there can be no superior wisdom to one's own intuition, no matter how extreme one may be in their undertakings or motivations, nor how wise certain other powers might be. Rather than render authority subject to inquiry so as to separate the just from the unjust, isn't it so much simpler (for simplicity always compensates for efficacy, truly) to register all sources of authority of any kind as objectively evil?

The idea of "All authority is evil", similar to anti-intellectualism are just the natural conclusions of Western individualism.

[Skildar]

And I'd say WoW already has done horror and done it well. Krastinov was horror. Thaddius was horror. Heck Brennadam was horror.

Even if they are horror, I wouldn't go as far as saying it was done well as none of these worked on me. One of the problems with these in wow is that the camera and lightening are wow's worst sickness. It made Drustvar witch forest look pale and peaceful and it takes players minutes to notice it when they have entered a morbid place floored with cadavers.