Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

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I'll admit that I'm deeply disappointed in the Human Heritage Armor questline, especially the bits with Vanessa. Evidently, Vanessa gets to have an entirely unprompted personality replacement after having previously felt nothing but illimitable hatred for Stormwind and its leadership. The dialogue is no less pathetic than I expected, either. The Defias join her, too, with the entire subfaction that had anything in the way of nuance seemingly disintegrating to make way for the precursor to a commune. I had hoped that Vanessa would become a recurring villain and remain wholly in-character, yet it seems we get to be treated to another Anduinite hatching from the hollow carcass of a character that used to have depth, going straight to friendly banter with a representative of the kingdom that oversaw her father's murder and implicitly disowning the name she got from him—after, mind you, having overseen enough in the way of terrorism and murder to make even the most level-headed, utilitarian sort turn to the sunk-cost fallacy. This is especially amazing given she isn't even in proximity to Anduin, yet even his residue is sufficient to poison her beyond repair as a character.

This is quite shocking given how good the Orc questline was. Normally I have a good laugh where Blizzard fumbles, but this is legitimately frustrating. How in the hell could they screw this up so terribly?

[Nymrohd]

Doing the orc heritage quests on my orc warlock will feel hilarious.

[Wangming]

I think Turalyon could be evil. Though it would have to be a complete brainwash, not one where he genuinely believes it.

Yeah well at that point even freakin Velen could be evil. Brainwashing is a copout. This is a key reason I don't like the Old Gods existing. It is such an easy way to create villain motivations: "Oh I listened to a hentai protagonist for too long and now I am misanthropic." Nah, screw that.

[Skildar]

--snip--

It would have been a very nice questline if the goal was for Shaw to educate us on moving forward and let go on ancient bickering to focus on the future of stormwind kingdom. We invite the defias to honor them and bury the hatchet, all a scheme to murder them all and try and rid stormwind of this old enemy that pollute their lands. The last of defias dies and their rebellion with them. They could always bring back Vanessa using necromancy, old fashion but effective.

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It would have been a very nice questline if the goal was for Shaw to educate us on moving forward and let go on ancient bickering to focus on the future of stormwind kingdom. We invite the defias to honor them and bury the hatchet, all a scheme to murder them all and try and rid stormwind of this old enemy that pollute their lands. The last of defias dies and their rebellion with them. They could always bring back Vanessa using necromancy, old fashion but effective.

I'm not quite sure if I like that, either—it feels out-of-character for Shaw. I think the idea of trying to reconcile with the Stonemasons without any strings is perfectly sensible and would be nice, though most of the Defias' hardliners, such as VanCleef herself would obviously refuse and maintain their status as a terrorist organization. I think the Defias are very good long-term villains, or better yet a faction which could oscillate under VanCleef between heroism and villainy under different circumstances, and squandering them in any way would be pretty inadvisable. VanCleef definitely shouldn't have been reduced to an Anduinite, regardless.

[Wangming]

I'll admit that I'm deeply disappointed in the Human Heritage Armor questline, especially the bits with Vanessa. Evidently, Vanessa gets to have an entirely unprompted personality replacement after having previously felt nothing but illimitable hatred for Stormwind and its leadership. The dialogue is no less pathetic than I expected, either. The Defias join her, too, with the entire subfaction that had anything in the way of nuance seemingly disintegrating to make way for the precursor to a commune. I had hoped that Vanessa would become a recurring villain and remain wholly in-character, yet it seems we get to be treated to another Anduinite hatching from the hollow carcass of a character that used to have depth, going straight to friendly banter with a representative of the kingdom that oversaw her father's murder and implicitly disowning the name she got from him—after, mind you, having overseen enough in the way of terrorism and murder to make even the most level-headed, utilitarian sort turn to the sunk-cost fallacy. This is especially amazing given she isn't even in proximity to Anduin, yet even his residue is sufficient to poison her beyond repair as a character.

This is quite shocking given how good the Orc questline was. Normally I have a good laugh where Blizzard fumbles, but this is legitimately frustrating. How in the hell could they screw this up so terribly?

I guess after circumstances forced her to work alongside all of them in Legion she kinda mellowed down. Plus it is hard to fight against Varian when he has been dead for years now. Still it would be nice for her to stay as a sort of anti-hero. Her conclusion on: "Guess I'll hand out soup to people" Is pretty much a character assassination.
At least they did not completely forget the character and tied the story somewhat to the expansion.

[Lahis]

Blizzard needs to redo the old Heritage Armour quests, it's criminal how Core races get full questlines through multiple zones and even cutscenes (for Humans and Orcs), while Void elves only get one quick quest from Alleria.

The funny thing is that an actual questline for the Ren'dorei Heritage Armour would present the opportunity to finally revisit Quel'Thalas, even if only in Scenario form, and could tell a story of divergences and reunification.

Allied Races don't get heritage quests. Their heritage armor is simply gotten from levelling from 10 to 60.

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Durak is using a grown up orc model, which looks incredibly awkward next to his sister, who's slightly younger and uses the child model.
Orc puberty hit hard I guess.

It does. Orcs are as tall as adult humans at the age of 6 and considered adults at 12. Durak is currently 10 or 11.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I guess after circumstances forced her to work alongside all of them in Legion she kinda mellowed down. Plus it is hard to fight against Varian when he has been dead for years now. Still it would be nice for her to stay as a sort of anti-hero. Her conclusion on: "Guess I'll hand out soup to people" Is pretty much a character assassination.

I could see her mellowing out as a result of her experiences at the time—my primary gripe is that outright defilement of her character. That she would implicitly retire as a Rogue after spending such a long period of time leading the Defias, much yet reduce herself to another placid Anduinite, is terrible for her. As I said before, I think the idea of her oscillating between antagonism and heroism would be suitable for her personality and general degree of now-erstwhile nuance.

[Nymrohd]

I could see her mellowing out as a result of her experiences at the time—my primary gripe is that outright defilement of her character. That she would implicitly retire as a Rogue after spending such a long period of time leading the Defias, much yet reduce herself to another placid Anduinite, is terrible for her. As I said before, I think the idea of her oscillating between antagonism and heroism would be suitable for her personality and general degree of now-erstwhile nuance.

Why call people who want peace Anduinites? Jaina behaved like that before Blizzard had even come up with Anduin. This narrative for the Alliance is very clearly Blizzard's choice for the faction; Anduin and how Golden has written him is just the instrument for that narrative purpose. When the plot repeatedly has characters change their personality regardless of Anduin's proximity, the issue is clearly the narrative choice Blizzard has made for the Alliance and not Anduin's character arc (which is far more nuanced than the faction's development is).

[Skildar]

I'm not quite sure if I like that, either—it feels out-of-character for Shaw. I think the idea of trying to reconcile with the Stonemasons without any strings is perfectly sensible and would be nice, though most of the Defias' hardliners, such as VanCleef herself would obviously refuse and maintain their status as a terrorist organization. I think the Defias are very good long-term villains, or better yet a faction which could oscillate under VanCleef between heroism and villainy under different circumstances, and squandering them in any way would be pretty inadvisable. VanCleef definitely shouldn't have been reduced to an Anduinite, regardless.

I'm not sure it would be out of character for Shaw but I went hard because I don't see us coming back to stormwind or westmarch any time soon to play with these characters again. I guess it's one more reason to have more media that tell the stories of Azeroth. There used to be a time where books were written about other topics than the main expansion... They involve way less effort and people than a tv show like arcane or creating another side game.

[Wangming]

EVERYBODY is back, the orc heritage chain reads like a wishlist of old orc characters, the only guy who didn't show up that I was hoping for was Oronok Torn Heart, but everyone else is there.

Ariok, Rexxar, Leoroxx, Gorgonna, Gorfax Angerfang has gone from being a nobody to having some decent lines even

I'm not an orc kinda guy, but that questline really does sound like what orc players need.

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I could see her mellowing out as a result of her experiences at the time—my primary gripe is that outright defilement of her character. That she would implicitly retire as a Rogue after spending such a long period of time leading the Defias, much yet reduce herself to another placid Anduinite, is terrible for her. As I said before, I think the idea of her oscillating between antagonism and heroism would be suitable for her personality and general degree of now-erstwhile nuance.

It is kinda sad that the only career option for rogues is enemy or government agent. Tess also became a rogue, but Hearthstone has more ideas what to do with her than actual WoW. Meh.

[Varodoc]

Allied Races don't get heritage quests. Their heritage armor is simply gotten from levelling from 10 to 60.

It's literally the same thing for Core races... they get Heritage armour by earning Exalted with their faction, and you earn this only by levelling/doing quests.

Besides, Allied races get one quest for their Heritage armour, which is a turn-in quest... which is exactly what I'm complaining about.

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The equivalent for that is the actual unlock questline.

And in general, they can't just re-make older things/create new stuff every time something else gets a new shiny update.

Worgen and Goblin also had unique questlines and even unique zones for those questlines, on top of that they also got unique questlines for their heritage armour.

[Sondrelk]

It's literally the same thing for Core races... they get Heritage armour by earning Exalted with their faction, and you earn this only by levelling/doing quests.

Besides, Allied races get one quest for their Heritage armour, which is a turn-in quest... which is exactly what I'm complaining about.

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Worgen and Goblin also had unique questlines and even unique zones for those questlines, on top of that they also got unique questlines for their heritage armour.

Allied Races have the unlock questline though, which I think you are ignoring. Void Elves had the big questline where you ran around the Ghostlands looking for clues, eventually ending up in Telogrus Rift and recruiting them.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Why call people who want peace Anduinites? Jaina behaved like that before Blizzard had even come up with Anduin. This narrative for the Alliance is very clearly Blizzard's choice for the faction; Anduin and how Golden has written him is just the instrument for that narrative purpose. When the plot repeatedly has characters change their personality regardless of Anduin's proximity, the issue is clearly the narrative choice Blizzard has made for the Alliance and not Anduin's character arc (which is far more nuanced than the faction's development is).

I was speaking in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek fashion (though in partial reference to Anduin's reaching out to the Stonemasons), as I'm aware that she's not yet been recruited into the cult directly. I do, however, legitimately think that she's received the personality replacement and neutering necessary to become one—indeed, such a profound, implicitly permanent, and thoroughly nonsensical change is wholly suitable for the new cast. I would also note that such a change is not quite comparable to the likes of Jaina, even in her WotLK-era doormat stage, as there is a particular set of qualities that I am referencing beyond the peaceful nature many of the sort have. What has happened here is a character wholly stripped of any personality whatsoever, the nuance and interesting qualities that originally went into her demolished as though by a sledgehammer, and a totally unrecognizable character made from her. This new, flat personality that wholly contradicts her prior actions and characterization, along with a helping of stilted dialogue and nonsensical decision-making, certainly puts her well into that unfortunate category.

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I'm not sure it would be out of character for Shaw but I went hard because I don't see us coming back to stormwind or westmarch any time soon to play with these characters again. I guess it's one more reason to have more media that tell the stories of Azeroth. There used to be a time where books were written about other topics than the main expansion... They involve way less effort and people than a tv show like arcane or creating another side game.

Eh, I still can't buy it. I think it's unnecessary to finish off the Defias for good, and murdering Vanessa and this kind of personality replacement she just got are really not that different, as both remove an interesting character from the setting inexorably and unnecessarily.

[Sondrelk]

I'm not an orc kinda guy, but that questline really does sound like what orc players need.

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It is kinda sad that the only career option for rogues is enemy or government agent. Tess also became a rogue, but Hearthstone has more ideas what to do with her than actual WoW. Meh.

That is the main issue with writing Rogues though. Being that they are effectively spies and/or assassins it only really makes sense for them to follow some kind of agenda. Said agenda will either by with us, or against us, otherwise it's meaningless to even have them in the game.
What this means is that characters like Vanessa will always either gravitate towards enemy, or government agent in some form.

Well either that, or you make them pirates, which is always a fun idea.

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That is the main issue with writing Rogues though. Being that they are effectively spies and/or assassins it only really makes sense for them to follow some kind of agenda. Said agenda will either by with us, or against us, otherwise it's meaningless to even have them in the game.
What this means is that characters like Vanessa will always either gravitate towards enemy, or government agent in some form.

Well either that, or you make them pirates, which is always a fun idea.

Well, the nature of her personality means she'd have a fairly good reason to oscillate between heroism and antagonism, right? I think such a state would be ideal, and would preempt a personality replacement. Besides, a nuanced character in a variable position is always a good thing.

[Nymrohd]

That is the main issue with writing Rogues though. Being that they are effectively spies and/or assassins it only really makes sense for them to follow some kind of agenda. Said agenda will either by with us, or against us, otherwise it's meaningless to even have them in the game.
What this means is that characters like Vanessa will always either gravitate towards enemy, or government agent in some form.

Well either that, or you make them pirates, which is always a fun idea.

That's not really true for rogues. Any swashbuckler would be a rogue. Heck most class systems allow a rogue to be both melee and ranged. The generic adventurer and explorer be it treasure hunter or knowledge seeker is a rogue.

[Sondrelk]

Eh, I still can't buy it. I think it's unnecessary to finish off the Defias for good, and murdering Vanessa and this kind of personality replacement she just got are really not that different, as both remove an interesting character from the setting inexorably and unnecessarily.

I think this change in the Defias was very much needed. It was in many ways the only reasonable ending to the Westfall storyline. The idea that you could have Defias as disgruntled Stonemasons was one that would inevitably become more difficult to accept with time, and Westfall was supposedly being fixed over time.
I suppose they could have kept them going with Anduins disappearance, but the idea that the Defias splintered into radicals and those who just wanted to go back home to Stormwind/Live peacefully in Westfall, made perfect sense to me. And once that happened you really only could have Vanessa either join the radicals, or keep helping the people of Westfall. You couldnt have both when the Defias are explicitly a band of highway bandits.
In that sense her choice to go back to helping the mdowntrodden more directly does make sense. And it's not like she is no longer trained as a Rogue and Alchemist, she just didnt want to join SI:7 as an agent when she could instead stay in Westfall.

[Varodoc]

Allied Races have the unlock questline though, which I think you are ignoring. Void Elves had the big questline where you ran around the Ghostlands looking for clues, eventually ending up in Telogrus Rift and recruiting them.

Worgen and Goblin also have a unique questline and even unique instanced zone only they can access, and Core races also have unique hubs and themed zones that are bigger than anything Allied races have except for Nightborne, Kul Tirans, and Zandalari.

[Sondrelk]

Well, the nature of her personality means she'd have a fairly good reason to oscillate between heroism and antagonism, right? I think such a state would be ideal, and would preempt a personality replacement. Besides, a nuanced character in a variable position is always a good thing.

I think her motivations as someone who specifically wants to help the downtrodden of Westfall does mean that a change like what we saw here would be warranted. It was either this, or having her become a proper villain down the line. Having her exist in a hypothetical frenemy relationship would just make the Defias impossible to write. You can't both have them be freedom fighters, AND enemy of the people. Even more so when Westfall is clearly shown as being developed.

This way the story can keep using the Defias in future storylines without issue now that they are specifically set up as radicalized thugs. And Vanessa can stick around as firmly on the side of Westfall, without having to be a leader of someone who is clearly shown to kill wantonly.

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That's not really true for rogues. Any swashbuckler would be a rogue. Heck most class systems allow a rogue to be both melee and ranged. The generic adventurer and explorer be it treasure hunter or knowledge seeker is a rogue.

Fair point. Though I still think that would be difficult to write into the story. Especially for characters who are meant to stay in the story for longer like Tess. Flynn worked as such becuase he was effectively a bit character, and even with that he needed to become effectively a government agent once the story wanted to keep him around.