Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

Danuser doesn't understand the nuance. They are neither heroes nor villains, they're dispassionate creators above mortal comprehension whose goals happen to align with ours. It's so bizarre for Aman'thul to have a tantrum over a tree and leave Eonar sobbing. That is so far removed from how the Titans have been portrayed in the past.

Aman'thul saying "lol no, we can't do that" to a new world tree is 100% in character. Eonar crying about it is relatively new characterization, but they have been subtly implying that she has some kind of deeper connection to Elune (recently hinted to be romantic love) since Legion.

The book is a dramatization, but both characters seem to be 100% in-character for what they do.

[KyleEverett]

Danuser doesn't understand the nuance. They are neither heroes nor villains, they're dispassionate creators above mortal comprehension whose goals happen to align with ours. It's so bizarre for Aman'thul to have a tantrum over a tree and leave Eonar sobbing. That is so far removed from how the Titans have been portrayed in the past.

You act as if a book about a legend from long ago is that weird to ascribe emotions to a deity level power. Sure be a shame if it wasn't on par with how real world religions have their gods act. Sure can't have any pesky emotion being ascribed to those beings as a way for past people to try and rationalize their actions.

[Hitei]

Danuser doesn't understand the nuance. They are neither heroes nor villains, they're dispassionate creators above mortal comprehension whose goals happen to align with ours. It's so bizarre for Aman'thul to have a tantrum over a tree and leave Eonar sobbing. That is so far removed from how the Titans have been portrayed in the past.

Yeah! The old Titans would never lose their cool about stuff and do anything rash like decide they need to wipe out all life in the entire universe to keep control.

[Chickat]

It's not that everything has to be voiced. Only about half the cutscenes in FF14 are voiced but they set up the parts you read somewhat cinematically vs just reading a long parchment. The characters explain things, you get to react and that slightly changes the interactions and so on.

You guys mean the actual quest dialogue that you read when accepting quests? Because there is a ton of VO in WoW compared to 15 years ago. I don't see them ever voicing all Quest text. MAYBE main quests, but i just don't see it happening.

[Myrrh]

Aman'thul saying "lol no, we can't do that" to a new world tree is 100% in character. Eonar crying about it is relatively new characterization, but they have been subtly implying that she has some kind of deeper connection to Elune (recently hinted to be romantic love) since Legion.

The book is a dramatization, but both characters seem to be 100% in-character for what they do.

100% this. Eonar's actions bolstered the influence of life on a planet that we know the Titans place great importance on.

To us? Yeah probably a good thing in all honesty.
To them? An instrument of chaos and unpredictability. Aman'thul would have viewed this as an unforgivable crime by one of his own, not just throwing a hissy fit over a tree.

[seainma]

Danuser doesn't understand the nuance. They are neither heroes nor villains, they're dispassionate creators above mortal comprehension whose goals happen to align with ours. It's so bizarre for Aman'thul to have a tantrum over a tree and leave Eonar sobbing. That is so far removed from how the Titans have been portrayed in the past.

Well for one its a dragon interpretation of the events. But Also we don't know much about the Titans personalities. Unless there is some lore that I'm missing? Besides the Argus fight which has some dialogue. We only know of things they've done not who they are as individuals.

We can infer that they can be somewhat heartless because of Algalon. But besides that saying its out of character is crazy when we don't know their character at all.

[Thomir]

Yeah! The old Titans would never lose their cool about stuff and do anything rash like decide they need to wipe out all life in the entire universe to keep control.

The Titans were unconvinced by Sargeras' arguments. They were willing to die rather than join his crusade. There's a reason he's called the Dark Titan, he's clearly an outlier.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah 3-5 zones at a time. It makes sense to merge certain ones. Like the entire left Middle side of Kalimdor. The barrens, 1k needles, Durotar, Duskwallow. etc.

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Well, I really dont see more than 1 zone happening, but feel free to tell me I'm wrong if it does.

For me it would be:
Quel'thalas: IQD, Eversong, Ghostlands
Eastweald: W/E Plaguelands & Stratholme Bay area; includes an open world version of Stratholme
Lordaeron: Tirisfal, Hillsbrad Foothills. Northern part of Silverpine. For me this is the most problematic area since there should be an open world version of Alterac Valley somewhere so the Frostwolves have a home beyond the Battleground portal.
Gilneas: Ruins of Gilneas, Southern part of Silverpine, Tol Barad, Tol Barad Peninsula. I would also add the Island Expedition area of Havenswood here. The Channel Islands could also be added (allowing you to zone to Kul Tiras) and would include Crestfall (the Island Expedition area) and Zul'dare
I also wonder if we could have a zone that includes Arathi Highlands, Hinterlands and then extends in the sea with possible a few small island areas and into the Maisara Hills which are the Amani Heartlands. In the original maps, Tyr's Hand was in a bay after all and the Amani area was quite significant.
Khaz Modan: Ironforge, Loch, Modan, Wetlands, Twilight Highlands
Blackrock Mountain: Searing Gorge, Badlands, Burning Steppes, Blackrock Mountain; the zone would have a large underground part that would include an open world version of Shadowforge City
Stormwind: Elwynn Forest, Westfall, Duskwood, Redridge, Deadwind Pass
Southern Azeroth: Northern Stranglethorn, Stranglethorn Vale, Swamp of Sorrows, Blasted Lands

So 9 zones in Eastern Kingdoms and I am adding several areas; Stratholme Bay, Maisara Hills, Zul'Dare

Kalimdor is I think simpler
1) Darkshore, Felwood and Ashenvale become one large forest with Azuremyst and Bloodmyst off the coast
2) Hyjal, Winterspring and Moonglade join and an underground subzone is added for Hyjal Burrows that includes Timbermaw Hold and the Warden prison area.
3) Azshara, Durotar, Northern Barrens together with a much larger Echo Isles area
4) Southern Barrens, Thousand Needles and Dustwallow Marsh
5) Stonetalon Peaks, Desolace, Feralas and Mulgore
6) Tanaris and Un'goro with a much larger Gadzetan.
7) Ahn'qiraj, Silithus and Uldum

[PotHockets]

Sure, I was iffy on including it or not, but there is quite a lot of zones in the South. It would require the South to be split some with it. Anyways, I suppose it doesn't matter. I don't see it happening.

Yeah I'd love a revamp more than almost anything and there are some hints but I refuse to go down that road anymore until it happens if it happens. It's been too long.

That said I think they would just about by biomes. So figure like 1k, Tanaris, Uldum and Silithus. Then separately from that Ungoro, Feralas and Desolace. It would make for some weirdish zone shapes but if they go down the megazone route the zone shapes are gonna be weird enough as it is no matter how you slice it when it comes to Kalimdor.

[Joszef Kiprich]

Kalimdor is I think simpler
1) Darkshore, Felwood and Ashenvale become one large forest with Azuremyst and Bloodmyst off the coast
2) Hyjal, Winterspring and Moonglade join and an underground subzone is added for Hyjal Burrows that includes Timbermaw Hold and the Warden prison area.
3) Azshara, Durotar, Northern Barrens together with a much larger Echo Isles area
4) Southern Barrens, Thousand Needles and Dustwallow Marsh
5) Stonetalon Peaks, Desolace, Feralas and Mulgore
6) Tanaris and Un'goro with a much larger Gadzetan.
7) Ahn'qiraj, Silithus and Uldum

Looks about right, although personally I would add 10k to Tanaris and Mulgore to Southern Barrens and Dustwallow.

[Hitei]

The Titans were unconvinced by Sargeras' arguments. They were willing to die rather than join his crusade. There's a reason he's called the Dark Titan, he's clearly an outlier.

He's called the dark titan because he went evil, not because he's somehow fundamentally different from the others. Even in the original pre-retcon, he went evil because he got depressed by how utterly evil demons were and how hopeless the fight against corruption was. The Titans have never been "dispassionate creators above mortal comprehension", lmao.

Even chronicle didn't have them dispassionately standing against his crusade, they were "horrified" of his plan.

They are emotional, fallible beings who are extremely powerful. Nowhere, in any depiction or any piece of lore is the argument made that they're some unshakeable higher existence of beings immune to basic emotions.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah I'd love a revamp more than almost anything and there are some hints but I refuse to go down that road anymore until it happens if it happens. It's been too long.

That said I think they would just about by biomes. So figure like 1k, Tanaris, Uldum and Silithus. Then separately from that Ungoro, Feralas and Desolace. It would make for some weirdish zone shapes but if they go down the megazone route the zone shapes are gonna be weird enough as it is no matter how you slice it when it comes to Kalimdor.

I mean not if they go for truly massive shapes. Not that I want that but if you just cut Kalimdor in North, Center, South and EK in Lordaeron, Khaz Modan, Azeroth then the shapes are pretty much normal.

[Calfredd]

The Titans were unconvinced by Sargeras' arguments. They were willing to die rather than join his crusade. There's a reason he's called the Dark Titan, he's clearly an outlier.

And yet they built one or two genocide devices on Azeroth in case things turned sideways. Thankfully even Titan constructs aren't unthinking, unfeeling, 'always follow your programming' automatons that can be reasoned with otherwise Algalon would not have changed his mind about killing us.

[flan1337]

For me it would be:
Quel'thalas: IQD, Eversong, Ghostlands
Eastweald: W/E Plaguelands & Stratholme Bay area; includes an open world version of Stratholme
Lordaeron: Tirisfal, Hillsbrad Foothills. Northern part of Silverpine. For me this is the most problematic area since there should be an open world version of Alterac Valley somewhere so the Frostwolves have a home beyond the Battleground portal.
Gilneas: Ruins of Gilneas, Southern part of Silverpine, Tol Barad, Tol Barad Peninsula. I would also add the Island Expedition area of Havenswood here. The Channel Islands could also be added (allowing you to zone to Kul Tiras) and would include Crestfall (the Island Expedition area) and Zul'dare
I also wonder if we could have a zone that includes Arathi Highlands, Hinterlands and then extends in the sea with possible a few small island areas and into the Maisara Hills which are the Amani Heartlands. In the original maps, Tyr's Hand was in a bay after all and the Amani area was quite significant.
Khaz Modan: Ironforge, Loch, Modan, Wetlands, Twilight Highlands
Blackrock Mountain: Searing Gorge, Badlands, Burning Steppes, Blackrock Mountain; the zone would have a large underground part that would include an open world version of Shadowforge City
Stormwind: Elwynn Forest, Westfall, Duskwood, Redridge, Deadwind Pass
Southern Azeroth: Northern Stranglethorn, Stranglethorn Vale, Swamp of Sorrows, Blasted Lands

So 9 zones in Eastern Kingdoms and I am adding several areas; Stratholme Bay, Maisara Hills, Zul'Dare

Kalimdor is I think simpler
1) Darkshore, Felwood and Ashenvale become one large forest with Azuremyst and Bloodmyst off the coast
2) Hyjal, Winterspring and Moonglade join and an underground subzone is added for Hyjal Burrows that includes Timbermaw Hold and the Warden prison area.
3) Azshara, Durotar, Northern Barrens together with a much larger Echo Isles area
4) Southern Barrens, Thousand Needles and Dustwallow Marsh
5) Stonetalon Peaks, Desolace, Feralas and Mulgore
6) Tanaris and Un'goro with a much larger Gadzetan.
7) Ahn'qiraj, Silithus and Uldum

This got me thinking what zones can be grouped in EK,

By climate this is how I would pair them:

https://i.imgur.com/tQtpLvJ.jpg

which once you group them it makes EK look small - I really hope a revamp would mean making the world bigger.

[PotHockets]

I mean not if they go for truly massive shapes. Not that I want that but if you just cut Kalimdor in North, Center, South and EK in Lordaeron, Khaz Modan, Azeroth then the shapes are pretty much normal.

Yeah that's true but personally I think both would need to be at least 6 zones each to not feel worse than what we have. If for instance they just combine them but dont actually increase the size then it's still gonna be the same problem old world dragonriding would have right now. It breaks the illusion of a massive world when you realize just how compact and small they actually are. That's my only real hang up with not just doing NSEW Kalim/EK. The zones would need to be something that makes sense in a more meta gaming way to maintain vibes.

That said that's just me and Blizz has proven me wrong before when it comes to thinking whether I would enjoy something or not.

[Nymrohd]

Looks about right, although personally I would add 10k to Tanaris and Mulgore to Southern Barrens and Dustwallow.

For me Mulgore should be in a block with the story and settlements of the tauren. So it needs to go with Desolace for the Centaur and it needs to go with Stonetalon for Sun Rock Retreat.

Honestly I don't want any of that. I want a proper revamp and that means a somewhat larger map and completely new zone borders that make sense both with the geography and with the stories they choose to tell. But that's not happening.

I love dragonriding but as far as exploration goes, it is a disaster. If flying disconnected you from the world already, why they thought flying at three times the speed was a good idea is beyond me. You can probably cross any zone in the old world with the momentum of one whirling surge.

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Yeah that's true but personally I think both would need to be at least 6 zones each to not feel worse than what we have. If for instance they just combine them but dont actually increase the size then it's still gonna be the same problem old world dragonriding would have right now. It breaks the illusion of a massive world when you realize just how compact and small they actually are. That's my only real hang up with not just doing NSEW Kalim/EK. The zones would need to be something that makes sense in a more meta gaming way to maintain vibes.

They can combine all they want, the world will still look tiny. They wanted to make dragon riding unequivocally better than old flying and they grossly overdid it. Problem is, if max speed was like 30% lower (which would still make it much faster than epic riding) then dragon riding challenges would just not be fun since turning at slower speeds is much easier and less exciting.

Plus it is all about giving the world proper scale. Goldshire is supposed to be a bustling town and right now it is an inn and a blacksmith building. Inns can somehow survive by renting their two rooms (some have THREE!). Entire areas don't even fit in the map; where is AV supposed to be? Was Lordaeron just a keep? It was supposed to be Capital City of the largest kingdom in the world. I can go on.

If I could have a revamp as I wish it would be (which will never happen) the scale would practically double in surface area and I'd still have zones merging.

[PotHockets]

If I could have a revamp as I wish it would be (which will never happen) the scale would practically double in surface area and I'd still have zones merging.

Same honestly. I really just want them to do a full on 2-3 part revamp expansion at this point. As in it happens over the course of 3 expansions because realistically in order to revamp it and have it actually still feel like a massive world it would have to be like 4 expansions worth of continent size.

[matijwow]

He's called the dark titan because he went evil, not because he's somehow fundamentally different from the others. Even in the original pre-retcon, he went evil because he got depressed by how utterly evil demons were and how hopeless the fight against corruption was. The Titans have never been "dispassionate creators above mortal comprehension", lmao.

Even chronicle didn't have them dispassionately standing against his crusade, they were "horrified" of his plan.

They are emotional, fallible beings who are extremely powerful. Nowhere, in any depiction or any piece of lore is the argument made that they're some unshakeable higher existence of beings immune to basic emotions.

Up through Legion, the Titans felt like the Greek gods in Greek myth and epic poetry: immensely powerful beings who rule the world and yet are not necessarily friendly to mortals. Mortal man owes them worship and sometimes has their favor, but they often remain awesome and alien.

Post-Legion, the Titans feel like the Greek gods in Disney's Hercules: powerful beings whose personalities and ways of thinking are completely relatable to someone living in California in 2023 if not cartoonish.

Somehow we're now to believe that this immensely powerful, knowledgeable, and ancient pantheon of gods who traversed the universe for eons together, shaping worlds in a common project of ordering the cosmos, suddenly are not on the same page as they shape the most important world they ever found. How do they solve this difference? By debating the reasons for their design in light of the immense wisdom they all possess? (That's how they initially approached Sargeras, after all.) No. Rather, they settle it in the style of a school-yard fight. Aman'thul acts like a 6-year old boy who kicks another kid's sandcastle and makes her cry, only to have Eonar get her petty revenge by having her friend continue her work behind Aman'thul's back.

[Scaleface]

@Scaleface knows how to make leaks fun. If it was me, I would have just shared all the images at once with a blurb about the expansion plot. But he managed to turn it into a fun game.

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No riddles, no fun :F <3

[GhostFish]

Up through Legion, the Titans felt like the Greek gods in Greek myth and epic poetry: immensely powerful beings who rule the world and yet are not necessarily friendly to mortals. Mortal man owes them worship and sometimes has their favor, but they often remain awesome and alien.

Post-Legion, the Titans feel like the Greek gods in Disney's Hercules: powerful beings whose personalities and ways of thinking are completely relatable to someone living in California in 2023 if not cartoonish.

Somehow we're now to believe that this immensely powerful, knowledgeable, and ancient pantheon of gods who traversed the universe for eons together, shaping worlds in a common project of ordering the cosmos, suddenly are not on the same page as they shape the most important world they ever found. How do they solve this difference? By debating the reasons for their design in light of the immense wisdom they all possess? (That's how they initially approached Sargeras, after all.) No. Rather, they settle it in the style of a school-yard fight. Aman'thul acts like a 6-year old boy who kicks another kid's sandcastle and makes her cry, only to have Eonar get her petty revenge by having her friend continue her work behind Aman'thul's back.

You might want to brush up on your Greek and Roman mythology. Being petty and selfish is a big part of what they are.

Aman'thul bossing the others around and doing what he wants according to his idea of order is exactly him acting like Zeus.