Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Baraden]

I'm simply not buying the notion of a 3rd DH spec.

Another DPS spec using staff/poleram based on big, slow attacks and themed around soul magic

Could literally call it Souleater after Allari

[Nymrohd]

I think it's because it changes them. And the main conflict is mainly because they started doing it to unborn children of unwilling parents. I think the morally questionable thing is pretty obvious.

Oh yes, the consent thing is absolutely valid and I assume the novel will actually tell us what exactly happened since at this point it is only implied and we don't get an explicit record. I am not saying it did not happen, I just think it would be great to have some clarity on what exactly happened.

Beyond that though, the Aspects don't seem to lack free will. Someone here (I forget who) did make the very valid point that the fact that the Aspects adhered to the tasks given to them by Tyr for thousands of years (however badly) could be a subtle sign of Order-induced compulsion; even for nigh-immortals to have their societies effectively stagnant for millenia seems curious.

[pacotaco]

Does it? Does it not have some Elune or Death realm magic in it?

Life and Death magic, the cycle of life and nature.
There's also the hint a dragons being originally the keeper equivalent of the Life Pantheon...

[Wangming]

Or even better; imagine if a worgen druid just stays in their worgen form for cat form; allowing you to bite and claw as your normal worgen appearance rather than cat - all these animations already exist, it would be almost no work on blizzard's end and would actually allow you to RP as a genuine worgen

I mean, worgen is essentially a druid form so why not?

[Nymrohd]

Another DPS spec using staff/poleram based on big, slow attacks and themed around soul magic

Could literally call it Souleater after Allari

I always assumed Allari was just a spoof of the anime.
And now I have Resonance playing in my head.

[Baraden]

I mean, worgen is essentially a druid form so why not?

I would change my druid to worgen in a hearbeat if it ever happened; being a wolf and shifting into a cat will always be daft to me

This literally already works because druids had the sabermaw form for WoD which used the worgen model; so it really would be virtually no work to implement

[Teriz]

Another DPS spec using staff/poleram based on big, slow attacks and themed around soul magic

Could literally call it Souleater after Allari

Big slow attacks doesn't really strike me as something a Demon Hunter would do.

I could imagine a bow user, since DHs are elves and come from races with strong ranger traditions. Also arrows utilizing fel magic sounds kind of cool. However, a DH with a staff using soul magic seems to be inching into Warlock territory.

[Baraden]

Big slow attacks doesn't really strike me as something a Demon Hunter would do.

I could imagine a bow user, since DHs are elves and come from races with strong ranger traditions. Also arrows utilizing fel magic sounds kind of cool. However, a DH with a staff using soul magic seems to be inching into Warlock territory.

Well we have lore examples of DHs using 2h weapons; we do not have lore examples of DHs using bows

Considering hunters are forced to deal with the abomination that is survival; another ranged spec should go to them to compensate for that

[Zers Editor]

I'm still not sure where people are getting "Tyr evil/antagonist" from that, either. He was pretty much just doing observational studies.

He got the eggs/whelps of the Incarnates (it isn't known if all of them or only a few) infused with Order, even though they were vehemently against it. So far there are no other unquestionably bad things he did.

Only Vyranoth and Alexstrasza are aware of his involvement and will likely question Tyr on his motives/reasons once he's back.

[Teriz]

Well we have lore examples of DHs using 2h weapons; we do not have lore examples of DHs using bows

Considering hunters are forced to deal with the abomination that is survival; another ranged spec should go to them to compensate for that

We've had those lore examples since Legion though. If Blizzard was going to utilize those examples, they would have done so when they created the class. Ion himself stated that the devs had no clue what a 3rd DH spec would look like, and they stated that as late as Shadowlands (The examples of DHs utilizing bows came from Hearthstone in 2021).

Which is why I doubt they're doing it now.

[Nymrohd]

Well we have lore examples of DHs using 2h weapons; we do not have lore examples of DHs using bows

Considering hunters are forced to deal with the abomination that is survival; another ranged spec should go to them to compensate for that

I personally want more archer specs across different classes in general. Imagine an Archery based shaman spec that can be reworked as a shadow hunter (maybe guided by Ohn'ara and using spirit eagles instead of spirit wolves). Rogue absolutely could fit an archer spec as well. I'd even be interested to see something like that for priest; Priest already is forced to have two completely unrelated specs with Shadow and Holy, just give them a proper Priestess of the Moon as well.

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He got the eggs/whelps of the Incarnates (it isn't known if all of them or only a few) infused with Order, even though they were vehemently against it. So far there are no other unquestionably bad things he did.

And we don't know exactly how it happened. Was it Tyr himself? Was it another keeper or a watcher under Tyr? Was Alex aware or was she not? I guess we will find out what exactly happened in War of the Scaleborn.

I mean from the excerpts and spoilers I've seen it seems that Iridikron had a sister who was infused with Order and her name suggests Black Flight

[Baraden]

We've had those lore examples since Legion though. If Blizzard was going to utilize those examples, they would have done so when they created the class. Ion himself stated that the devs had no clue what a 3rd DH spec would look like, and they stated that as late as Shadowlands (The examples of DHs utilizing bows came from Hearthstone in 2021).

Which is why I doubt they're doing it now.

Because adding augmentation was clearly a turning point in the sense it was the first time we ever had a new spec added to a class; with the exception of guardian but that really should've existed since vanilla

Clearly they're more open to it now than they were

The devs may not have known before, but orginally DHs were scrapped from vanilla because they didn't know how to do that either - things change

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I personally want more archer specs across different classes in general. Imagine an Archery based shaman spec that can be reworked as a shadow hunter (maybe guided by Ohn'ara and using spirit eagles instead of spirit wolves). Rogue absolutely could fit an archer spec as well. I'd even be interested to see something like that for priest; Priest already is forced to have two completely unrelated specs with Shadow and Holy, just give them a proper Priestess of the Moon as well.

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And we don't know exactly how it happened. Was it Tyr himself? Was it another keeper or a watcher under Tyr? Was Alex aware or was she not? I guess we will find out what exactly happened in War of the Scaleborn.

I mean from the excerpts and spoilers I've seen it seems that Iridikron had a sister who was infused with Order and her name suggests Black Flight

I wouldn't be against that; for me I just want old survival back; I don't even care if it's not on a hunter to get it

[Jaggler]

Which isn't the worst force to be alligned with. The bigger problem I feel is that it isn't a shield against other forces. Like you know the Worgen curse protects against the curse of undeath. Or at the very least at the level of the Plague. The Lich King had no problem creating Death Knights from them. But zombie? Nah.
Ysera on the other hand was easily corrupted by the Nightmare.

Not saying it is the worst thing that could happen, but it's very obvious that itis absolutely not okay to kidnap children and basically brainwash them before they were even born.

[Nymrohd]

I wouldn't be against that; for me I just want old survival back; I don't even care if it's not on a hunter to get it

Thematically, I think Hunter should have a proper Ranger spec; a ranged spec that has a mana secondary resource and casts limited nature magic. That would be closest to the survival of old

[Wangming]

I would change my druid to worgen in a hearbeat if it ever happened; being a wolf and shifting into a cat will always be daft to me

This literally already works because druids had the sabermaw form for WoD which used the worgen model; so it really would be virtually no work to implement

While that would require a lot more work if I had my way, Demon Hunter, Death Knight, Mechagnome, Worgen and Void Elf did not exist as their own race or class.

Instead as a sort of max level progression you would pick a force to empower you. Scourge Death Magic, Fel, Void, technology or the worgen curse. It would come with unique visuals and abilities.

[Nymrohd]

Not saying it is the worst thing that could happen, but it's very obvious that itis absolutely not okay to kidnap children and basically brainwash them before they were even born.

But is it brainwashing? I am going to make a real world analogy here and tell you that from Tyr's perspective it likely is more akin to vaccination. For him Vyranoth is probably the anti-vaxxer mom screaming at him for trying to protect her children from mutating with random elemental infusions by giving them a stable form through Order. If to his perspective it is a provable fact that order infusion is to the benefits of those kids then it is an argument between the rights of parents vs the welfare of children. And Tyr could be wrong here; his facts could be tainted by bias. But that could still be his perspective.
@Aucald, is it OK to discuss it through this angle?

[Jaggler]

But is it brainwashing? I am going to make a real world analogy here and tell you that from Tyr's perspective it likely is more akin to vaccination. For him Vyranoth is probably the anti-vaxxer mom screaming at him for trying to protect her children from mutating with random elemental infusions by giving them a stable form through Order. If to his perspective it is a provable fact that order infusion is to the benefits of those kids then it is an argument between the rights of parents vs the welfare of children.

I mean, from that perspective every kind of corruption is just a "vaccination" against other forces. Fel-infusion, being corrupted by the old gods.

I'm not saying that Tyr was necissarily evil in that he didn't have evil intentions. I'm saying that Vyranoth has a very valid point with not wanting to have her children/anyones children being taken away.

[Wangming]

Not saying it is the worst thing that could happen, but it's very obvious that itis absolutely not okay to kidnap children and basically brainwash them before they were even born.

Agreed, it is not. It would be somewhat justifiable in a sort of "ends justify the means" way if order magic infusion would protect against things like Neltharion or Ysera being corrupted by the void.

So this infusion doesn't really benefit the dragons in any way.

[Zers Editor]

Was Alex aware or was she not?

In the excerpt he directly asked her to do it. There's no way she did not deduce that he was involved in it or at least gave his "yes" in favor of it happening.

[Nymrohd]

I mean, from that perspective every kind of corruption is just a "vaccination" against other forces. Fel-infusion, being corrupted by the old gods.

I'm not saying that Tyr was necissarily evil in that he didn't have evil intentions. I'm saying that Vyranoth has a very valid point with not wanting to have her children/anyones children being taken away.

Is that in the novel? Because in game I don't really think we know what exactly happened to the eggs and if they were taken away from their parents.

Beyond that with the protodrakes we have a race that seems to mutate freely when exposed to different sources of power. Excluding fel, none of the other sources have such an immediate effect on other races; this seems to be an attribute of the proto dragons. Is it really ok for it to happen? We still have proto drakes in modern WoW and yet none of them seem to be infused with the elements. Did Tyr or the other Keepers intervene somehow and even though they did not infuse all proto drakes, they still found a way to stabilize them?

Honestly I think that in the end the reasoning will be chilling; it will be Tyr bewildered by why anyone would NOT want to be Order-aligned because it is his nature as a Titanforged to see things through that perspective; his bias is so intense that he cannot make a moral judgment on this issue.

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In the excerpt he directly asked her to do it. There's no way she did not deduce that he was involved in it or at least gave his "yes" in its favor.

OK the excerpt I read, he directly asks her something. We don't know what exactly that is. Perhaps the Life Pools existed already back then and Vyranoth and the other proto dragon eggs were also brought there willingly.

Again, I am not saying it did not happen, it most likely did. But let's refrain from certainty until we have the book in hand.