Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Isn't Y'Shaarj's demise common knowledge in-universe? It's at least understood to the Mantid. If we are to assume that the book's updated information stands, even writing off G'Huun as ignorance on the part of the author, Y'Shaarj still would be deceased as opposed to imprisoned.

Mind you, you are probably correct on the matter of the book just being reused without reaffirmation and vindication being suggested, and that we're reading too far into it, but I do think this isn't a poor line of inquiry, either.

Got no clue how common that would be the Mantid know but aren't big on chatting and I can't remember if the Pandarian or mogu ever actually mention him proper and not just the left over Sha, any one knowing beyond Pandaria is also dubious.

But Y'Shaarj's heart was still locked up in a Titan facility so we really don't have a way to know if that is counted as an "old god" or not.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

But Y'Shaarj's heart was still locked up in a Titan facility so we really don't have a way to know if that is counted as an "old god" or not.

Or "imprisoned", for that matter.

Still, I figure this line of inquiry isn't worth totally dismissing in spite of its lack of likelihood compared to Blizzard just not bothering rewriting a book without strictly vindicating its contents or an in-universe error.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Hrm, fair enough. Does lead one to wonder if anyone who did know about the Old Gods would put the threads together or not, especially if they still have an at least semi-accurate number floating around somewhere. Honestly, I'm somewhat curious who exactly authored Deathwing's copy of the book—probably wouldn't be the Titans. Night Elves? Another Dragon?

Can't be the Titans the first page mentions there lack of knowledge about Sargaras turning and when they found out they all died.

Given the timing of the isle being sealed it had to be a pre WOTA race but that could still be pretty much any one and given that the clean version isn't found in any titan facility's its unlikely to be a watcher and is most likely to be a dwarf given that its found in both if and black rock.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Can't be the Titans the first page mentions there lack of knowledge about Sargaras turning and when they found out they all died.

Given the timing of the isle being sealed it had to be a pre WOTA race but that could still be pretty much any one and given that the clean version isn't found in any titan facility's its unlikely to be a watcher.

Thus why I brought it down to the Night Elves or a Dragon. A member of the Blue or Bronze Dragonflight could be the author—although the Night Elves would be a sensible contender, I do have to wonder if Neltharion would be interested in collecting books not written by Dragons.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Hrm, fair enough. Does lead one to wonder if anyone who did know about the Old Gods would put the threads together or not, especially if they still have an at least semi-accurate number floating around somewhere. Honestly, I'm somewhat curious who exactly authored Deathwing's copy of the book—probably wouldn't be the Titans. Night Elves? Another Dragon?

Presumably the Horde and the Alliance realized the nature of the Sha after Garrosh was arrested and the cleanup crews tried to figure out what this dead heart in the Underhold was. The Horde and Alliance found out that saronite was dried up old god blood in Northrend quests, so any cursory analysis of Y'shaarj's heart should return similar results and lead to them making the connection. Brann Bronzebeard also regularly interacted with Titan facilities and accessed their knowledge banks so he could have found out from there.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Presumably the Horde and the Alliance realized the nature of the Sha after Garrosh was arrested and the cleanup crews tried to figure out what this dead heart in the Underhold was. The Horde and Alliance found out that saronite was dried up old god blood in Northrend quests, so any cursory analysis of Y'shaarj's heart should return similar results and lead to them making the connection. Brann Bronzebeard also regularly interacted with Titan facilities and accessed their knowledge banks so he could have found out from there.

I meant at the time the text was written—I was wondering if knowledge of Y'Shaarj's status as an Old God and as a notably deceased Old God could have reached anybody, or if they could've synthesized awareness of the Sha and of the Old Gods and put the nature of the two together.

[Nymrohd]

Any source of that? Or you saw it on PTR?

It's one of the quests you get in the PTR yeah.

[Inxotep]

https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com...w-3-april-2023

At the bottom it says april 7 - Blues News, what could this entail

[Eeram]

https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com...w-3-april-2023

At the bottom it says april 7 - Blues News, what could this entail

its going to be new spec for evokers )))))))) For sure right!!!

[Wangming]

The fact that people actually believe in Pyromancers WoW shit sickens me...

I could literally put that dude in a pack regarding WoW lore lmaooo

- - - Updated - - -

He should stick with FFXIV, as it is what he's good at.

Unless the dude works on his anger management issues, he won't be good at that for long. I mean he is very good at pissing people off. Generally yes, he has more success analyzing and predicting FFXIV lore, because he now can count of the lore being relatively retcon free and setup ending in payoff.

I have to admit that the Chronicles retcon still irks me—reframing what was initially marketed as an absolute, all-encompassing journal of Warcraft lore as in-universe propaganda was a rather daft move on Blizzard's part. Doesn't help that most of what was changed only was so for the sake of very underwhelming additions (i.e. Shadowlands and the First Ones).

As for the Pyromancer theory, I'm unfamiliar. Please enlighten me.

I'm with you on that. I had no illusions Chronicle would last as a definitive encyclopedia, but even I was surprised how little time it took for it to happen.

As for the Pyro theory: There is nothing to it really. It posits the question: "What if the Chronicle is all a lie and the Titans are the Void Lords" and goes from there. it is all a bunch of nonsense. I wasn't happy when Pyro started playing FFXIV, because we are passionate about our lore and story. Thankfully his controversial moments are his attacks against Blizzard, other streamers and his viewers. Not the lore.

Eh, that kind of depends on context. If we're talking about, say, a villainous character, what he meant may have been along the lines of how people hated Gul'dan in Legion—a "love to hate" sort of thing.

If you really want to look into it, sure. He isn't bad at plausible deniability. But anyway, we dwelt on it for too long. This isn't the why I dislike Taliesin thread. I have my impressions of they guy that I don't feel I need to justify to anyone. Nevertheless that Old God video of his is still interesting.

[Revamp Man]

5 old gods not counting the artificial one ghuun
We know 4 and based on art ysharj was essentially an orochi
Xal is heavily hinted at being the 5th and she's got a link with ashzara who's returning in 10.2

[Nymrohd]

Or "imprisoned", for that matter.

Still, I figure this line of inquiry isn't worth totally dismissing in spite of its lack of likelihood compared to Blizzard just not bothering rewriting a book without strictly vindicating its contents or an in-universe error.

The titans still went to the trouble to build a facility to contain the Heart of Y'shaarj. So in practice it was imprisoned (we never found out what the facility beneath Pandaria is called btw).

[Skildar]

I can't believe I am saying this, but Taliesin does bring up an excellent point in his new video. According to new sources, the Titans imprisoned five Old Gods. That number is important not only because we only know four by name (G'huun not included), but because technically only three were imprisoned. Y'shaarj was squished and while his body parts were hidden, he might not qualify as imprisoned. So we might be looking at six Old Gods (plus G'huun) on Azeroth.

I was surprised to learn through wowpedia that this number has been updated since 2006
Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos Game_Manual
The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth#References

[Wangming]

I was surprised to learn through wowpedia that this number has been updated since 2006
Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos Game_Manual
The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth#References

Yeah it was five first, then it went down to four, and now it is five again. How many Old Gods there are, and how dead they are has been pretty fluid over the years.

[Varodoc]

Why has no one here brought up the possibility that the Void Lords sent new Old Gods to Azeroth during the timeskip? The Old Gods on Azeroth have gotten very close to corrupting the World-Soul, but they have not quite achieved it yet, prompting the Void Lords to send out new Old Gods to aid them. N'Zoth came so close to corrupting the World-Soul, he only stumbled at the very end, so the Void Lords have sent more allies to aid him.

I will not be surprised at all when it will be revealed that new Old Gods have joined the fray, on top of the returning known ones. Alleria Windrunner even noted that she is hearing new whispers after N'Zoth's defeat.

Such an obvious thing to deduce, I must confess that I'm surprised no one here has yet brought up this possibility. Did we just randomly assume that the Void Lords stopped making Old Gods for whatever reason?

[Shadowferal]

Such an obvious thing to deduce, I must confess that I'm surprised no one here has yet brought up this possibility. Did we just randomly assume that the Void Lords stopped making Old Gods for whatever reason?

While such an assumption may be obvious, to bring it about writing-wise is clumsy imo. Such things should be eased into...an event or three to grease up the moment, yet keep things off-kilter so the moment is a bigger reveal than those guessing almost correctly...

[Nymrohd]

My understanding is that the creation of the Old Gods was not simple. The Void Lords can barely manifest in the physical realm and if they do it is moments before they are pushed back for lack of matter to consume. And the Old Gods are parts of them ripped and hurled in the emptiness of space. I don't think they could do that with any regularity.

[huth]

My understanding is that the creation of the Old Gods was not simple. The Void Lords can barely manifest in the physical realm and if they do it is moments before they are pushed back for lack of matter to consume. And the Old Gods are parts of them ripped and hurled in the emptiness of space. I don't think they could do that with any regularity.

Let's not forget that they basically threw them out at random as well. And a new Old God arriving on a world that has already dealt with them before might not exactly have the best survival chances.

[Varodoc]

My understanding is that the creation of the Old Gods was not simple. The Void Lords can barely manifest in the physical realm and if they do it is moments before they are pushed back for lack of matter to consume. And the Old Gods are parts of them ripped and hurled in the emptiness of space. I don't think they could do that with any regularity.

Yet we have seen countless Old Gods operating beyond Azeroth. Scrolls of Anzu mention that there were "Gods of the Deep" on Draenor, and there was at least one Old God who was trying to be summoned in Outlands. Shadowlands revealed that there was a planet that fell under the Old God, until the Night Warrior defeated it. Another world succumbed to the Old Gods and was destroyed by Sargeras. Several other planets can be seen under Old God control in the skybox of Telogrus Rift and also in the skybox of the Star Augur encounter from Nighthold:



Harbringer Skyriss even said "We span the Universe, as countless as the stars", which means that the Void Lords don't really have a problem churning out Old Gods. They have apparently created so many Old Gods that they and their insectoid minions are spread throughout the entire Cosmos, in very large numbers ("as countless as the stars").

Furthermore, the Void Lords' entire existence revolves around creating Old Gods to try and affect the Physical universe, so I don't know why they would suddenly stop making Old Gods.

People here should be more worried about the possibility that new Old Gods were sent to Azeroth during the 3 year timeskip. And Alleria Windrunner stated that she is feeling new whispers after N'Zoth's ""defeat"", "new voices joining the chorus", which could refer to new Old Gods being created in the direct aftermath of N'Zoth's defeat.

And people here also shouldn't forget that Old Gods are masters of death. They exist outside the cycle and each one of them has cheated death at least once. What if there were other minor Old Gods like Xal'atath, who were seemingly destroyed with no remains left, but actually found a way to cheat death?

[Nymrohd]

Let's not forget that they basically threw them out at random as well. And a new Old God arriving on a world that has already dealt with them before might not exactly have the best survival chances.

Yup, they pretty much masturbated all over the universe and if anyone got gooped, VLs got lucky.
And I'll keep pushing my theory that since the Old Gods are parts of the Void Lords, they may identify as such as well. So there may be multiple C'thun's in the universe and they are all part of the same Void Lord. Which would mean they are not truly dead because the greater part of them is still alive in the Void. Whichever Old God manages to take over a Void Soul, its Void Lord is the one that will manage to take over the World Soul to manifest.