Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[M1dkn1ght]

First off, "massive land masses" is an interesting thing to claim with Legion and BFA specifically since those expansions were known for having more condensed zones, especially with the Broken Isles. I remember perusing this exact forum with complains about how everything felt on top of each other and too close with no open space compared to WoD Draenor, Northrend, or Pandaria. They addressed this with the Dragon Isles (although I would enjoy even more open space personally).

Second, they also addressed this whole idea of "new and innovative" ideas saying that they were going with a modular approach of a system being developed soley for that expansion. This started with the bare-bones Pandaria Farm, then you get the WoD Garrison, and then finally, they jump feet first into the modular design with Legion, BFA, and SL systems. Players lost their god damn minds and so they tried to react to that criticism with Dragonflight by going back to the basics. DF builds a solid base-line revamp of the UI, talent system, and basic PvE systems with some additional focus on outdoor content and Mythic+ rotation. Now, they can build on that with evergreen innovation rather than the modular shit.

AND NOW, people are judging the SYSTEMS of the next expansion based on four fucking images that may or may not be real. I think they probably are, and if they are, they look kind of cool. But the meat isn't known. No systems, no updates, nothing. And yet, people are saying the game has lost all this prestige that Legion and BFA had???? I've been reading these forums since Cata got leaked here, and it's actually insane the mental leaps and cycling of doom you see with posts like this.

I made a fake leak this expansion round because I thought it was fun, but god damn is this leak season especially depressing with the vitriol and misinformation just going around (ironic, I know, since this post is kind of vitriolic and I made a fake leak). Anyways, WoW isn't the same as it was, but it isn't dead nor dying. People begged for a return to the basics. Now, people are begging for new and innovative systems. And then when they come out, they'll complain that it isn't truly Warcraft. And then they'll beg for a return to basics.

WoW is different to everyone. Some want the 'Hair-metal' vibe of the 2000s era of Warcraft. Others want the more competitive and stream-lined focus of the 2010s. And now you have fans that are really focused on the collection side and more 'feel-good' vibes that are popular in pop-culture. You even have a few who are persistent that their specific race in WoW is what truly makes the game special (Undermine fanatics, Night-elf fascists, Forsaken genocide deniers, Orc fetishists). And that's all cool. WoW will never have one defining trait. But if you're going to criticize the game, which the game needs and thrives on, at least be factual and do so in good-faith rather than jump at whatever buzz words or concepts you can.

Slay queen

[Sondrelk]

So, I was reading a Wowhead article about a scythe dropping in Black Rook Hold. And a commenter mentioned something about an axe dropping from M+ Dargul in Neltharions lair but I cannot find anything about an axe. Anyone know what they are on about?

For reference, this is the exact comment (plus the comment they were replying to):

I think they added a lava axe to his loot table. The same recolour as the one you get from Island expeditions, which itself was a recolour of a drop from Heart of the Mountain in Blackrock Foundry.

[Nymrohd]

First off, "massive land masses" is an interesting thing to claim with Legion and BFA specifically since those expansions were known for having more condensed zones, especially with the Broken Isles. I remember perusing this exact forum with complains about how everything felt on top of each other and too close with no open space compared to WoD Draenor, Northrend, or Pandaria. They addressed this with the Dragon Isles (although I would enjoy even more open space personally).

Second, they also addressed this whole idea of "new and innovative" ideas saying that they were going with a modular approach of a system being developed soley for that expansion. This started with the bare-bones Pandaria Farm, then you get the WoD Garrison, and then finally, they jump feet first into the modular design with Legion, BFA, and SL systems. Players lost their god damn minds and so they tried to react to that criticism with Dragonflight by going back to the basics. DF builds a solid base-line revamp of the UI, talent system, and basic PvE systems with some additional focus on outdoor content and Mythic+ rotation. Now, they can build on that with evergreen innovation rather than the modular shit.

AND NOW, people are judging the SYSTEMS of the next expansion based on four fucking images that may or may not be real. I think they probably are, and if they are, they look kind of cool. But the meat isn't known. No systems, no updates, nothing. And yet, people are saying the game has lost all this prestige that Legion and BFA had???? I've been reading these forums since Cata got leaked here, and it's actually insane the mental leaps and cycling of doom you see with posts like this.

I made a fake leak this expansion round because I thought it was fun, but god damn is this leak season especially depressing with the vitriol and misinformation just going around (ironic, I know, since this post is kind of vitriolic and I made a fake leak). Anyways, WoW isn't the same as it was, but it isn't dead nor dying. People begged for a return to the basics. Now, people are begging for new and innovative systems. And then when they come out, they'll complain that it isn't truly Warcraft. And then they'll beg for a return to basics.

WoW is different to everyone. Some want the 'Hair-metal' vibe of the 2000s era of Warcraft. Others want the more competitive and stream-lined focus of the 2010s. And now you have fans that are really focused on the collection side and more 'feel-good' vibes that are popular in pop-culture. You even have a few who are persistent that their specific race in WoW is what truly makes the game special (Undermine fanatics, Night-elf fascists, Forsaken genocide deniers, Orc fetishists). And that's all cool. WoW will never have one defining trait. But if you're going to criticize the game, which the game needs and thrives on, at least be factual and do so in good-faith rather than jump at whatever buzz words or concepts you can.

I will say this. I am never talking about people. I am always talking about my own opinions and perception of their content. Good luck finding any post by me saying that borrowed power and innovative systems are bad. I will critique them and ask for them to iterate and improve systems but I think almost every system they have added could be kept in some form if improved upon.

[Nyel]

Yeah no, after experiencing Dragonriding, static flying feels absolutely atrocious and slow.

People aren't gonna abandon the trippled flight speed.

As I said, we’re going to see. I think people are generally lazy and with flying you just can turn on auto run and that’s it. You cannot do that with Dragonriding. Convenience > speed. But that’s down to personal preference my take isn’t universal.

[Makorus]

So, I was reading a Wowhead article about a scythe dropping in Black Rook Hold. And a commenter mentioned something about an axe dropping from M+ Dargul in Neltharions lair but I cannot find anything about an axe. Anyone know what they are on about?

For reference, this is the exact comment (plus the comment they were replying to):

It's this one here.



They added weapon drops to Legion dungeons for M+ because obviously they didn't drop any at all.
The model is just the axe that drops from Blast Furnace in BRF.

[Wangming]

Because Legion and BfA devoted dev time on ambitious new game modes instead of remaking base systems.

While I agree with you on this and applaud the laundry list of systems BfA came with, cause they at least tried.
But let's be frank. The system changes and the character model updates were needed for the long term health of the game.

[Ferlion]

First off, "massive land masses" is an interesting thing to claim with Legion and BFA specifically since those expansions were known for having more condensed zones, especially with the Broken Isles. I remember perusing this exact forum with complains about how everything felt on top of each other and too close with no open space compared to WoD Draenor, Northrend, or Pandaria. They addressed this with the Dragon Isles (although I would enjoy even more open space personally).

Second, they also addressed this whole idea of "new and innovative" ideas saying that they were going with a modular approach of a system being developed soley for that expansion. This started with the bare-bones Pandaria Farm, then you get the WoD Garrison, and then finally, they jump feet first into the modular design with Legion, BFA, and SL systems. Players lost their god damn minds and so they tried to react to that criticism with Dragonflight by going back to the basics. DF builds a solid base-line revamp of the UI, talent system, and basic PvE systems with some additional focus on outdoor content and Mythic+ rotation. Now, they can build on that with evergreen innovation rather than the modular shit.

AND NOW, people are judging the SYSTEMS of the next expansion based on four fucking images that may or may not be real. I think they probably are, and if they are, they look kind of cool. But the meat isn't known. No systems, no updates, nothing. And yet, people are saying the game has lost all this prestige that Legion and BFA had???? I've been reading these forums since Cata got leaked here, and it's actually insane the mental leaps and cycling of doom you see with posts like this.

I made a fake leak this expansion round because I thought it was fun, but god damn is this leak season especially depressing with the vitriol and misinformation just going around (ironic, I know, since this post is kind of vitriolic and I made a fake leak). Anyways, WoW isn't the same as it was, but it isn't dead nor dying. People begged for a return to the basics. Now, people are begging for new and innovative systems. And then when they come out, they'll complain that it isn't truly Warcraft. And then they'll beg for a return to basics.

WoW is different to everyone. Some want the 'Hair-metal' vibe of the 2000s era of Warcraft. Others want the more competitive and stream-lined focus of the 2010s. And now you have fans that are really focused on the collection side and more 'feel-good' vibes that are popular in pop-culture. You even have a few who are persistent that their specific race in WoW is what truly makes the game special (Undermine fanatics, Night-elf fascists, Forsaken genocide deniers, Orc fetishists). And that's all cool. WoW will never have one defining trait. But if you're going to criticize the game, which the game needs and thrives on, at least be factual and do so in good-faith rather than jump at whatever buzz words or concepts you can.

Just out of curiosity, what leak did you do?

[Leowyld]

As I said, we’re going to see. I think people are generally lazy and with flying you just can turn on auto run and that’s it. You cannot do that with Dragonriding. Convenience > speed. But that’s down to personal preference my take isn’t universal.

I don't know. For me, spending less time traveling is convenience. Speed = efficiency = convenience. Traveling isn't the best part of this game, it's what you do between the best parts of this game. But at least dynamic flying has some sort of gameplay feel, which previous means of travel did not. But, yes, I guess we will see. I do think it will remain more popular than you expect, though.

[Wangming]

I don't know. For me, spending less time traveling is convenience. Speed = efficiency = convenience. Traveling isn't the best part of this game, it's what you do between the best parts of this game. But at least dynamic flying has some sort of gameplay feel, which previous means of travel did not. But, yes, I guess we will see. I do think it will remain more popular than you expect, though.

Well what IS the best part of the game. For you, I mean?

[Ateo]

Perhaps you are right. But if that is true, can't we expect a Classic+ or a WoW 2? I mean they have to be working on SOMETHING if retail is in maintenance mode. And it sure as hell isn't Rumble of Classic. Classic is stuff that has been done already.

That's my thoughts. They would never abandon their franchises. I am certain we will see a bigger better take on the wow universe just like we will inevitably see a bigger better take on starcraft.


If we are honest blizzard is truly just Warcraft, Starcraft. Diablo, and now Overwatch. It's 4 franchises with many spin off games set in those universes. The universe will never disappear but the games that are flagships for said universes will always evolve.


I want classic+ but is that enough to keep the franchise alive? No it's just a really good take on the old game.

They HAVE to make a new game in the universe eventually, nothing lasts forever nor should it.

[Nymrohd]

I don't think there was any legitimate way to fix Warfronts or Islands without just making new content reusing the assets.

You were not going to be able to fix Island expeditions, simply because the problem was the entire conceit of a scramble for Azerite. You could reuse the islands for some other kind of content, but you couldn't somehow tweak the opposing player team out.

Same with Warfronts. You could make it more difficult, as they did. But Warfronts failed because they wanted to emulate the feel of an RTS, and that was always impossible when the content was designed to accommodate 30 players at once.
You would have needed to scrap basically the entire thing, making not just two NPCs for each player required for the last boss, but five or six.
You wouldn't just need to fight a big wave of enemies. You would need to somehow make it so you could create static defences that made repelling enemy attacks possible at all.

They could have seen that the azerite race aspect of Islands was a bad gameplay fit for their concept and added an exploration mode. Double the required Azerite to complete and remove the opposing team. Allow people to just go in solo or with just two people (even in the Mythic difficulty).

Warfronts would admittedly require a bigger alteration. Imo, reducing the group size to 10 and then tripling the number of troops you can have, plus adding some passive resource gain would be enough.

[Ateo]

Dragonflight has made more systemic changes to the game than any expansion since like Cata has. How the hell is that maintenance mode?

Dynamic flight is the ONLY major change and that's just an advancement upon the basics of vehicles that have existed in the game for

Renown came from Shadowlands and is literally just a different interface for reputation it's literally the same exact thing as rep.

A new class and a support spec isn't some profound change on the grand scale of things.

[Leowyld]

Well what IS the best part of the game. For you, I mean?

I would say combat. There are MMO's that do almost every other part of the gameplay better than WoW - questing, storytelling, character creation, etc. But the feel of WoW's combat has remained my favorite. Not sure if it is a common opinion. But I certainly think my opinion travel *isn't* my favorite part, that can't be an uncommon sentiment. If anything could change that, though, it would be dynamic flying, because dynamic flying does feel great. (Personally, I think it feels better than the GW2 mount physics that inspired it)

[Nymrohd]

For me, the best addition in DF s the flightstone reward system, especially the 10.2 version. It adds a solo advancement system that should let solo players to reach champion 8/8, it has made gear from so many different versions of content be possibly useful.

[Ateo]

Dragonflight has made more systemic changes to the game than any expansion since like Cata has. How the hell is that maintenance mode?

The only "systematic change" made is dynamic flying, which at its core is really just another vehicle system.

Renown was introduced in Shadowlands and is nothing more than a UI change to reputation it is functionally the same and even impacts the exact same achievement categories.

A new class and support spec is truly nothing special, they've added many specs and classes over the years, while support is a very nice addition to the game it's not that special.

We're still playing the same game on the same engine with the same shit just repainted.

Name one truly game changing thing introduced into wow over the past decade that wasn't a borrowed power system that immediately vanished after the expansion it was introduced in.

[ZyntosAran]

The only "systematic change" made is dynamic flying, which at its core is really just another vehicle system.

Talent trees
Crafting Revamp
Itemization Revamp

[Ferlion]

"At its core".

That's just like saying "at its core mythic+ is just a another level of dungeon"

Which, yes. True.

But it drastically altered the game

[Leowyld]

Talent trees
Crafting Revamp
Itemization Revamp

Uh oh, you activated their trap card. They're gonna say talent trees don't count because they were in the game before (despite the fact the new talent trees have numerous differences in functionality)

[Ateo]

Talent trees
Crafting Revamp
Itemization Revamp

What item revamp? Them reintroducing tier and items with set bonuses? A thing we had from day one of classic?

Talent trees existed from day one, an expansion on a system that should have never been removed isnt a game changing system, it's a return to what we originally had. People saying talent system is a change sound as dumb as those praising apple for debating reintroducing the headphone jack to their devices after they removed it.

Crafting revamp? The thing no one cares about and is literally unnecessary menus that overly complicated the crafting system and removed items that once were just nice BOEs and instead force a player to "request" them be crafted? Again this is nothing but a step backwards and something that in its inception was exponentially better for all players. Vanilla/tbc crafting items > retail in every possible way.

[Auxis]

It's this one here.



They added weapon drops to Legion dungeons for M+ because obviously they didn't drop any at all.
The model is just the axe that drops from Blast Furnace in BRF.

I think they added a lava axe to his loot table. The same recolour as the one you get from Island expeditions, which itself was a recolour of a drop from Heart of the Mountain in Blackrock Foundry.

Thanks guys. I think I must've forgotten to check the ptr listing on wowhead, now that I think about it.

Wow that's pretty boring looking. They could've given us the Hammer of Khaz. I mean, 1) it's right there, and 2) we can use a replica of the Aegis, makes sense to me that we could use a replica of the Hammer.