Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

I never got the impression that Rastakhan was incompetent. On the contrary, he's doing the best in the situation that the game implies he is in.

Beyond simply mentioning him in the ZG questline, the first time we get real lore about Rastakhan in game is the books found all over the Isle of Thunder and those most definitely depict Rastakhan as an incompetent king. Zul did not become what he did in a day; he saw the Cataclysm ahead of time, warned Rastakhan and Rastakhan did NOTHING. He is very much high Charisma low Wisdom.

I think troll fans just built the hype around him in their heads for years until he showed up. Which is understandable, he did seem like a larger than life figure in Vanilla. Plus getting the books in the Isle of Thunder was such a massive pain, probably last achievement I completed there.

And Rastakhan went to Bwonsamdi because he was popular and that is the way they wanted to move the story. The reasonable successor to Rezan is TORCALLI but for some reason she got shafted in BfA only appearing during the mount quest for the few who got lucky and did it and without even getting a unique model. All of Zandalar is Torcalli's temple.

[Alanar]

Beyond simply mentioning him in the ZG questline, the first time we get real lore about Rastakhan in game is the books found all over the Isle of Thunder and those most definitely depict Rastakhan as an incompetent king. Zul did not become what he did in a day; he saw the Cataclysm ahead of time, warned Rastakhan and Rastakhan did NOTHING. He is very much high Charisma low Wisdom.

I think troll fans just built the hype around him in their heads for years until he showed up. Which is understandable, he did seem like a larger than life figure in Vanilla. Plus getting the books in the Isle of Thunder was such a massive pain, probably last achievement I completed there.

And Rastakhan went to Bwonsamdi because he was popular and that is the way they wanted to move the story. The reasonable successor to Rezan is TORCALLI but for some reason she got shafted in BfA only appearing during the mount quest for the few who got lucky and did it and without even getting a unique model. All of Zandalar is Torcalli's temple.

The thing with bfa with him is he actually knew things were going on as he told to the player. Pre bfa lore didnt quite match.. I would sayn, According to that, zandalar sank and what we got was just a side of nazmir that was flooded appearntly. If you didnt catch it before playing bfa, you didnt miss much as it was changed mostly. What we got was much grander then what we thought initially.

He stood up pretty early on in the expansion. He wasnt incompetent, he was slacking pretty much. He needed a slap in the face, which he got and he actually got some things done. Ye he was a flawed leader, but that is precicely what people drew to him, that and hes charisma.

He clearly loved hes people and died for them literally. I do miss the guy, he was kinda goofy, but a fun and interesting character. It showed when it was clear Talanji just wasnt as popular. Bfa was powerwoman expansion so he had to go.

I was lucky to see her and also got the mount. You can see bulwark of torcali walking on the pyramid after the events.

[Nymrohd]

The thing with bfa with him is he actually knew things were going on as he told to the player. Pre bfa lore didnt quite match.. I would sayn, According to that, zandalar sank and what we got was just a side of nazmir that was flooded appearntly. If you didnt catch it before playing bfa, you didnt miss much as it was changed mostly. What we got was much grander then what we thought initially.

He stood up pretty early on in the expansion. He wasnt incompetent, he was slacking pretty much. He needed a slap in the face, which he got and he actually got some things done. Ye he was a flawed leader, but that is precicely what people drew to him, that and hes charisma.

He clearly loved hes people and died for them literally. I do miss the guy, he was kinda goofy, but a fun and interesting character. It showed when it was clear Talanji just wasnt as popular. Bfa was powerwoman expansion so he had to go.

Honestly I played Nazmir>Vol'dun>Zul'dazar (which I think makes the most sense as a story) so I had to see him ignore a massive threat to the north, ignore that his general was scheming against him only to come back and see him betrayed. Rastakhan was just all Charisma for sure but that's all he had. But he did make sense; heck his god behaved in the exact same way.

[Super Dickmann]

And Rastakhan went to Bwonsamdi because he was popular and that is the way they wanted to move the story. The reasonable successor to Rezan is TORCALLI but for some reason she got shafted in BfA only appearing during the mount quest for the few who got lucky and did it and without even getting a unique model. All of Zandalar is Torcalli's temple.

There was a serious writing shift re: Bwonsamdi going from BFA into Shadowlands's tie-ins. In BFA, Rastakhan making a deal with Bwonsamdi is very much a deal with the devil. The patronage of the kingdom isn't a minor thing and him agreeing to give his bloodline to preserve his kingdom without Talanji knowing is cast as iffy. Rastakhan isn't a tool for it, as if anything his story is about a king who's gotten too stuck in his ways getting his mojo back, but it's a choice with a high cost. Bwonsamdi doesn't mind him keeling over during their boss fight and even mocks him about it. The whole bit about life withering and dying under his purview shows is there to get across that while Bwonsamdi is an ally, he's a sketchy and ambitious one to have.

Shadows Rising makes this a lot more shallow by having Bwonsamdi be funny, but ultimately well-intentioned and drop both the death loa and the fetters on Talanji's bloodline entirely, while in SL proper he's essentially written out of the story, even if I overall like the idea of him working to topple Mueh'zala and then taking him into his torture dungeon.

Of the "young leader takes over" plot beat, Talanji is by far the most inoffensive case. She was fine in the quests, she's solid in Shadows Rising and her ascending to the throne makes sense as is the pressure she faces over it. If there's any character who got screwed it was Zul, who went from the best introduction in yonks to being a patsy for a giant tick. The whole bit about him wanting to resurrect Dazar and make him king was interesting, but completely underexplored and having that fail and only then have Zul become a giant tick worshiper would make a lot more sense. Or if I was being indulgent, just not do it at all and have the Horde have their own prophet character but eh.

[Alanar]

I never got the impression that Rastakhan was incompetent. On the contrary, he's doing the best in the situation that the game implies he is in. When you first meet him at the beginning of BFA, he tells you that he already knows that some of his councilors are plotting against him. It is Talanji who thinks Rastakhan didn't already know that, showing that she might not be as aware as she thinks she is. The issue is that Rastakhan isn't an absolute monarch who can do anything he wants like how monarches are typically portrayed in fiction. Like real kings, he has to balance the desires of his vassals and other powerful figures within his domain, or risk being overthrown. We saw throughout Cata and MoP that there was a powerful figure within Zandalar named Zul who was behind all of these Zandalari expeditions we fight. Rastakhan almost certainly couldn't just have thrown him in prison or executed him. If he could have, he would have. Rastakhan runs to Bwonsamdi for aid because he is in a tight, rapidly developing situation and he needs raw strength, right now. If the events of BFA had not happened then Rastakahan would have continued trying to quietly thwart Zul and diminish his influence over the years like he was doing previously. Rastakhan's only big screw up was aligning Zandalar with the Horde. The Horde champion aided many neutral polities over the year without forcing said polity to join the Horde. Rastakahan could have repaid favor to the Horde champion without jumping headlong into their war on the side that has historically never won a war, and has been in near constant war for 40 years.

This was my impression as well, people make it seem he was not aware, but it was talanji who maybe like you said wasnt as aware as she thinks.

[Lahis]

They had several cities as early as Knaak's 2004 War of the Ancients novel, which was only 2 years after WC3 released. IIRC there was no Kaldorei city in the Teldrassil area at the time the Sundering happened. The Stormrage Brothers and Tyrande lived in a city closer towards the center of (the megacontinent) Kalimdor, and the people fled West when the flood came. They reached Mount Hyjal and were saved from the flood.

Highborne led Kaldorei Empire and the post Sundering Kaldorei are very different people. They had cities before the world blew up. They didn't rebuild them afterwards.

The home city for Stormrages and Tyrande is Suramar. It was in Val'sharah they first met Cenarius.

[Nathanyel]

My problem with it being on dragon isles (how sure are you people that it's really being on dragon isles?) is that blizzard Abaddons landmasses the moment the prepatch of the next X-Pac hits. Why can't they properly integrate old land into the current content? This really puzzles me and it's also very inefficient and wasteful in terms of real money

But that's exactly what they're doing here, establishing a reason to revisit the Dragon Isles later on.

no, the concept of city itself is un-kaldorei.

Indeed, the new tree might be the center, the official new capital, but relevant settlements (e.g. for Heritage and other storylines) could be all over the former Kalimdor.

Outland hasn't been relevant after TBC. Northrend hasn't been relevant after Wrath. The Cata zones of Hyjal/Uldum/Vashjr/Twilight Highlands haven't been relevant after Cata. Pandaria hasn't been relevant after MoP. AU Draenor hasn't been relevant after WoD. The list goes on. The Dragon Isles won't be relevant after DF.

And therefore no attempts should be made to improve?

To agree with you on another matter, though:

I think Rastakhan dying was okay. You can't have a world war without people dying and major changes happening, or at least the semblance of it.

Rastakhan was a barely mentioned character before, and story-wise, even he seemed to realize his rule was coming to an end one way or the other. He obviously gave Talanji more free rein as a preparation for her ascension to the throne, to give his people a fresh but loved face, who would also be more able to stand up to the Zanchuli Council.

Although I would have changed his death to the Alliance raid weakening him for capture (which was the actual intention, despite different portrayal on Horde side - a repeat mistake of BfA storytelling, giving two accounts both presented as factual) but then the Widow's Bite swoops in to deliver the deathblow, aided by K'thir, to foreshadow the end of the expansion as well as the events of Shadows Rising.
The Alliance gets the full blame anyway, and the Horde pursues Jaina as seen.

[Nymrohd]

Of the "young leader takes over" plot beat, Talanji is by far the most inoffensive case. She was fine in the quests, she's solid in Shadows Rising and her ascending to the throne makes sense as is the pressure she faces over it. If there's any character who got screwed it was Zul, who went from the best introduction in yonks to being a patsy for a giant tick. The whole bit about him wanting to resurrect Dazar and make him king was interesting, but completely underexplored and having that fail and only then have Zul become a giant tick worshiper would make a lot more sense. Or if I was being indulgent, just not do it at all and have the Horde have their own prophet character but eh.

I still cannot fathom the entire G'huun storyline. We have a society that is blood focused in the blood trolls and a villain who is strongly related to plague preparing to assault Zandalar. Now where have I heard that before . . .
Why did they not use Hakkar? He has been the nemesis of the trolls from the start. He was free to act after the ZG dungeon! Have Zul be his equal partner. Explain why he is so much more evil than other loa. Heck explain wtf is wrong with wind serpent wild gods (Sethe was the Wind Serpent Wild God of Draenor, also evil, also used his cursed blood to plague and mutate people). Perhaps tie him to the Old Gods and find a way to tie in Uldir to that. And what happened to Dazar???

[Nathanyel]

The whole bit about life withering and dying under his purview shows is there to get across that while Bwonsamdi is an ally, he's a sketchy and ambitious one to have.

Shadows Rising makes this a lot more shallow by having Bwonsamdi be funny, but ultimately well-intentioned and drop both the death loa and the fetters on Talanji's bloodline entirely, [...]

Bwonsamdi is an uneasy ally, doing what he pleases, one moment he enjoys laughing with you, the next he laughs about your demise.
However, I understood Talanji breaking the blood pact as her hinting that they both knew the Zandalari wouldn't accept the Loa of Death as their main deity for long.
Bwonsamdi helped defend the empire from the Blood Trolls, Mythrax and Ghuun, and got his due for that, but essentially, he was a Winston Churchill, not loved but useful, elected to win the war, then immediately removed from office after.

[Nymrohd]

Bwonsamdi is an uneasy ally, doing what he pleases, one moment he enjoys laughing with you, the next he laughs about your demise.
However, I understood Talanji breaking the blood pact as her hinting that they both knew the Zandalari wouldn't accept the Loa of Death as their main deity for long.
Bwonsamdi helped defend the empire from the Blood Trolls, Mythrax and Ghuun, and got his due for that, but essentially, he was a Winston Churchill, not loved but useful, elected to win the war, then immediately removed from office after.

Bwonsamdi is probably among the people who have the most to gain from the Shadowlands lore reaching the ears of civilians. He protected the other loa. He saved the souls of trolls from the Maw. He defeated Muez'hala who caused the entire mess in the first place.

I know I may be alone with this but Talanji should find a way to pick Torcali, the Loa of Bounty who protects the harvest and guards the land as her patron. PLus triceratops is the coolest dinosaur.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

that's my headcanon, but it's baffling that such a low-hanging fruit was completely missed. like, there's even an existing juxtaposition between the visible and dark sides of the moon - yes, build on it! Maiev was hidden from view for millenia, just like the dark side.
it's almost funny that they introduced the duality quite recently with the warden set and the trading post cat. but not between the sides of the moon or faces of the Goddess - between sun and moon instead, as if night elves were tauren. sad!

Overall, it's rather a poor decision, but hardly atypical given that the Night Elven experiencing has been a consistent shafting in every release after WarCraft III. Say what you want about the Forsaken, but they weren't entirely, irrevocably derailed from the very start of the MMO.

re: Rastakhan
i always thought of the guy as the borderline incompetent, blind yet still glorious monarch. this image was based upon a mention of him during 5.2, "king of a crooked throne". you may think he was wasted as a character, but his last months and death were consistent with his previous portrayal. i don't understand why is he so lamented - just because Talanji seems lame or do you know something i don't?

Oh, I totally agree with you. Rastakhan was a borderline-moronic kakistrocrat in MoP—for me, it's mainly more "anti-Talanji" than "pro-Rastakhan". Honestly, were it up to me from the get-go, I'd have Zul be a perfectly non-villainous technocrat being consistently ignored by his incompetent leader, and be the one to succeed Rastakhan after his incompetence catches up with him. At the risk of derailing the topic with fanon, I'd have liked to see Zul be an ally – albeit a highly untrustworthy and conniving one – and help to push Rastakhan into making a deal with Bwonsamdi in the first place after the here-unrelated Blood Troll issue became a thing. Zul would end up taken off-guard when Bwonsamdi reveals to him that the plan was to knock off the hubristic Bwonsamdi all along and replaces him with a somewhat-perturbed but ultimately relieved Zul. However, between Talanji or Rastakhan dying, I'd definitely rather Talanji—at the very least, Rastakhan had something of a personality and didn't make me want to gouge out my own fucking eyes with my thumbs every time he was on-screen.

[Lahis]

And therefore no attempts should be made to improve?

And what would make Blizzard suddenly change their methods? Only doing new stuff is more marketable.

[Shadowferal]

Blizz is zooming too fast, leaving narrative loose ends all over the place, creating superficial expansions that are simply forgettable.

[Sondrelk]

There was a serious writing shift re: Bwonsamdi going from BFA into Shadowlands's tie-ins. In BFA, Rastakhan making a deal with Bwonsamdi is very much a deal with the devil. The patronage of the kingdom isn't a minor thing and him agreeing to give his bloodline to preserve his kingdom without Talanji knowing is cast as iffy. Rastakhan isn't a tool for it, as if anything his story is about a king who's gotten too stuck in his ways getting his mojo back, but it's a choice with a high cost. Bwonsamdi doesn't mind him keeling over during their boss fight and even mocks him about it. The whole bit about life withering and dying under his purview shows is there to get across that while Bwonsamdi is an ally, he's a sketchy and ambitious one to have.

Shadows Rising makes this a lot more shallow by having Bwonsamdi be funny, but ultimately well-intentioned and drop both the death loa and the fetters on Talanji's bloodline entirely, while in SL proper he's essentially written out of the story, even if I overall like the idea of him working to topple Mueh'zala and then taking him into his torture dungeon.

Of the "young leader takes over" plot beat, Talanji is by far the most inoffensive case. She was fine in the quests, she's solid in Shadows Rising and her ascending to the throne makes sense as is the pressure she faces over it. If there's any character who got screwed it was Zul, who went from the best introduction in yonks to being a patsy for a giant tick. The whole bit about him wanting to resurrect Dazar and make him king was interesting, but completely underexplored and having that fail and only then have Zul become a giant tick worshiper would make a lot more sense. Or if I was being indulgent, just not do it at all and have the Horde have their own prophet character but eh.

Sure sounds like a BfA plot to me. That entire expansion could be summed up as: "Oops. Those narrative consequences are far too heavy for our cool setup"

- - - Updated - - -

Blizz is zooming too fast, leaving narrative loose ends all over the place, creating superficial expansions that are simply forgettable.

I'll happily take a lighthearted expansion that leaves a few plotthreads bare, than something like BfA that buckled under its own narrative weight.

[Nymrohd]

Overall, it's rather a poor decision, but hardly atypical given that the Night Elven experiencing has been a consistent shafting in every release after WarCraft III. Say what you want about the Forsaken, but they weren't entirely, irrevocably derailed from the very start of the MMO.

Plus the worst narrative crimes against the Forsaken happened in novels. The vast majority of the playerbase never saw them.

[Shadowferal]

I'll happily take a lighthearted expansion that leaves a few plotthreads bare, than something like BfA that buckled under its own narrative weight.

BFA had far too little narrative weight. It was all one note, and not much else.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Haven't seen this forum pop off like this since the announcement of Dragonflight.

I sure love a good sh*tshow... but honestly it was bound to happen, the whole topic of NE and the new tree has become quite a sensitive one. I'm not against the tree being on the Dragon Isles that being said, even though I would have preferred it to be on Kalimdor. In my opinion this also lowers the chances of a world revamp quite a bit...

[Nightmare Queen]

Oh, I totally agree with you. Rastakhan was a borderline-moronic kakistrocrat in MoP—for me, it's mainly more "anti-Talanji" than "pro-Rastakhan". Honestly, were it up to me from the get-go, I'd have Zul be a perfectly non-villainous technocrat being consistently ignored by his incompetent leader, and be the one to succeed Rastakhan after his incompetence catches up with him. At the risk of derailing the topic with fanon, I'd have liked to see Zul be an ally – albeit a highly untrustworthy and conniving one – and help to push Rastakhan into making a deal with Bwonsamdi in the first place after the here-unrelated Blood Troll issue became a thing. Zul would end up taken off-guard when Bwonsamdi reveals to him that the plan was to knock off the hubristic Bwonsamdi all along and replaces him with a somewhat-perturbed but ultimately relieved Zul. However, between Talanji or Rastakhan dying, I'd definitely rather Talanji—at the very least, Rastakhan had something of a personality and didn't make me want to gouge out my own fucking eyes with my thumbs every time he was on-screen.

Speaking of Zul, what the hell was his problem? He pretty much just went psycho and decided that worshipping a Blood Slug and stabbing Rastakhan was the right thing to do lol

[Nymrohd]

Speaking of Zul, what the hell was his problem? He pretty much just went psycho and decided that worshipping a Blood Slug and stabbing Rastakhan was the right thing to do lol

I mean, replacing Rastakhan who was incompetent with Dazar sounds pretty much a great idea. The Ghuun part is what makes no sense.

[Makabreska]

Speaking of Zul, what the hell was his problem? He pretty much just went psycho and decided that worshipping a Blood Slug and stabbing Rastakhan was the right thing to do lol

Well, that's how Void/Fel/Light/undeath corruption stuff works. One day you are normal, the other you go full jihad. Check Deathwing (but at least this time we will got some explanation about his process).