Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Darkarath]

I sincerely hope they backtrack on trying to pull the nelfs out of Kalimdor, I don't understand WHY they would do this.

What does Blizzard gain by moving them out of the Old World zones of Kalimdor, or Even EK, and sticking them in an expansion zone?

What story do they think they're telling for the nelfs that benefits from that in any way?

I can't understand the reasoning behind it.

Well if a world revamp happens, and lets say that the Void and the Light come and make of Azeroth their battlefield, all Horde and Alliance cities might be destroyed or isolated.

In such a case, the Dragon Isles could turn as the new leveling experience for new players, with some revamped zones of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. The Alliance main hub could be the new World Tree in the Dragon Isles, and the Horde main hub a new Forsaken city in Lordaeron. We could recover other cities as the new expansion advances, they could even tie housing into this.

Every continent / plane / planet that we have visited until 11.0 becomes accessible through portals or whatever method they came up with, and the new revamped world plus the Dragon Isles are the only visibles continents in the new map, keeping the rest of the maps, of course, accessible.

I am not against the idea of having main cities in previous expansions locations, It could be a good thing, and Night Elves have always been allies of the Dragons, so a link could be there. Let us wait and see how the situation evolves.

The location is honestly, in principle, not a problem for me, what interest me are the implications of a world tree that would obviously be tied to the Shadowlands. I see It as a city that would exist in both planes, the living Night Elves on Azeroth and the death Night Elves on the Shadowlands, so that they are able to see their ancestors often.

[Lahis]

Well if a world revamp happens, and lets say that the Void and the Light come and make of Azeroth their battlefield, all Horde and Alliance cities might be destroyed or isolated.

In such a case, the Dragon Isles could turn as the new leveling experience for new players, with some revamped zones of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. The Alliance main hub could be the new World Tree in the Dragon Isles, and the Horde main hub a new Forsaken city in Lordaeron. We could recover other cities as the new expansion advances, they could even tie housing into this.

Every continent / plane / planet that we have visited until 11.0 becomes accessible through portals or whatever method they came up with, and the new revamped world plus the Dragon Isles are the only visibles continents in the new map, keeping the rest of the maps, of course, accessible.

I am not against the idea of having main cities in previous expansions locations, It could be a good thing, and Night Elves have always been allies of the Dragons, so a link could be there. Let us wait and see how the situation evolves.

The location is honestly, in principle, not a problem for me, what interest me are the implications of a world tree that would obviously be tied to the Shadowlands. I see It as a city that would exist in both planes, the living Night Elves on Azeroth and the death Night Elves on the Shadowlands, so that they are able to see their ancestors often.

Dragon Isles will be the new 10 to 70 levelling zone next expansion regardless of what happens in 11.0. The story is simply more up to date (and not complete bullshit like Shadowlands) than BFA.

[Makabreska]

Well if a world revamp happens, and lets say that the Void and the Light come and make of Azeroth their battlefield, all Horde and Alliance cities might be destroyed or isolated.

In such a case, the Dragon Isles could turn as the new leveling experience for new players, with some revamped zones of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. The Alliance main hub could be the new World Tree in the Dragon Isles, and the Horde main hub a new Forsaken city in Lordaeron. We could recover other cities as the new expansion advances, they could even tie housing into this.

All these changes are waaaay to radical to happen. People don't like Nelves tree in DI? Imagine how general Allinace population would react when SW is no more and the tree would be their new, main hub.

[Darkarath]

Dragon Isles will be the new 10 to 70 levelling zone next expansion regardless of what happens in 11.0. The story is simply more up to date (and not complete bullshit like Shadowlands) than BFA.

That would be ok: Exile's Reach followed by the Dragon Isles. Although we know that the same problems would arise. Players would reach the level needed for 11.0 way before finishing the questing experience of the Dragon Isles.

I think that is about time that the new campaign of 11.0 is shared between max level players and new players. In such a way, they would finish the questing experience for sure and at least they would understand a part of the story, and they could always go back to experience old content if they want to. If they have not reach max level when the questing experience is done, they could keep earning experience through WQs, as It currently happens with alts in DF.

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All these changes are waaaay to radical to happen. People don't like Nelves tree in DI? Imagine how general Allinace population would react when SW is no more and the tree would be their new, main hub.

Well the main hub changes with each expansion, and if we eventually recover It, I do not see the problem. Remember that "Old" Storwind and the other main hubs will still be accessible in such a case.

[Makabreska]

Well the main hub changes with each expansion, and if we eventually recover It, I do not see the problem. Remember that "Old" Storwind and the other main hubs will still be accessible in such a case.

So we will be spending all this time just to go back to how things were. Not to mention that all that cities reclamation would be not-so-properly-new-content. Also, old Darnassus is still accessible, but it didn't change a thing. Lore-wise it is a burned stump.

[Darkarath]

So we will be spending all this time just to go back to how things were. Not to mention that all that cities reclamation would be not-so-properly-new-content. Also, old Darnassus is still accessible, but it didn't change a thing. Lore-wise it is a burned stump.

If a world revamp happens, Old Azeroth has to still be accessible in WoW Retail. They wont make the mistake of destroying content again. So no matter the approach that they take, if a revamp happens, we will have two versions of the main hubs.

The only alternative that I see if a Cataclysm style revamp happens again, meaning that content is replaced and not accessible in the current game, is that they take current WoW and make It playable in a kind of classic version, where you can still get mounts, pets, achievements, etc., with a copy of your character, and everything that you get there is shared with 11.0 revamped world. But I see this as a very complicated system, I think that It is better to have everything under one WoW version.

[Dracullus]

If a world revamp happens, Old Azeroth has to still be accessible in WoW Retail.

And for 100th time, why it would be a problem. With SL revamp your experience starts in Exile's Reach, then BfA (very, very likely it will be DF next expansion) and move to new expansion, anything else is exploring past with Chromie. They don't even have to change anything, 4.0 EK/Kalimdor is already called 'Cataclysm' there. Any revamped continent (it doesn't have to be EK or Kalimdor) can be new continent from technical perspective.

[Nathanyel]

I am not against the idea of having main cities in previous expansions locations, [...]

This phrasing made me think: you know which main cities are in previous expansions' content? All of them!
Save for Cata, the only gameplay reasons we even go back there are the AH, picking up expansion intro quests and traveling to other places. And now, admittedly, the Trading Post as an evergreen feature.
And let's be real, not just for the latter this means only Org/SW, and not other cities.

If that changes with new/rebuilt capitals, with story quests and other stuff taking you there every once in a while, that should be a good thing, right?
Regarding the location of the tree, again, it matters little to a people already living decentralized for millennia.

[Darkarath]

And for 100th time, why it would be a problem. With SL revamp your experience starts in Exile's Reach, then BfA (very, very likely it will be DF next expansion) and move to new expansion, anything else is exploring past with Chromie. They don't even have to change anything, 4.0 EK/Kalimdor is already called 'Cataclysm' there. Any revamped continent (it doesn't have to be EK or Kalimdor) can be new continent from technical perspective.

That is exactly my point. It does not have to be a problem. And i do not think that having two Stormwinds, or two Orgrimmars, would be an issue.

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This phrasing made me think: you know which main cities are in previous expansions' content? All of them!
Save for Cata, the only gameplay reasons we even go back there are the AH, picking up expansion intro quests and traveling to other places. And now, admittedly, the Trading Post as an evergreen feature.
And let's be real, not just for the latter this means only Org/SW, and not other cities.

If that changes with new/rebuilt capitals, with story quests and other stuff taking you there every once in a while, that should be a good thing, right?
Regarding the location of the tree, again, it matters little to a people already living decentralized for millennia.

Exactly. All main hubs are already in previous expansions, most of them empty.

[Alanar]

.

That may be so, doesnt change what I said about it tho.
Sad part is that he was way more popular and interesting.

@Caerule
I like your view on this character, I also wish we had more time with him. I cant help, but to not view hes death as something that was planned beforehand. It was powerwoman year, there was simply no room for him. We knew he would die from the moment they introduced both characters on blizzcon. I agree hes story served a purpose, but would have loved to see him survive and he could have passed the mantle and do hes thing. Be it an advisor of some sort.

I dont see him returning, but with vol jin coming back as a loa, rastakahn would just be a super cool character to have around. Talanji just doesnt have it. Combination of things for me, but one would be her voice acress that annoys me.

[Lady Atia]

That is exactly my point. It does not have to be a problem. And i do not think that having two Stormwinds, or two Orgrimmars, would be an issue.

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Exactly. All main hubs are already in previous expansions, most of them empty.

We already have two Dalarans, and they can just move old EK/Kalimdor into the Caverns of Time (hell, they could even go all in and release the classic versions too there but scaled to max level so they can use it as timewalking content).

[Nymrohd]

That may be so, doesnt change what I said about it tho.
Sad part is that he was way more popular and interesting.

@Caerule
I like your view on this character, I also wish we had more time with him. I cant help, but to not view hes death as something that was planned beforehand. It was powerwoman year, there was simply no room for him. We knew he would die from the moment they introduced both characters on blizzcon. I agree hes story served a purpose, but would have loved to see him survive and he could have passed the mantle and do hes thing. Be it an advisor of some sort.

I dont see him returning, but with vol jin coming back as a loa, rastakahn would just be a super cool character to have around. Talanji just doesnt have it. Combination of things for me, but one would be her voice acress that annoys me.

Hey we are all allowed to have our bias. I get what you liked about Rastakhan, I liked him too, great voice acting and they nailed the charisma.

And lorewise I think the entire raid was stupid. It was a great raid for gameplay but the goal of the Alliance was to stop the Horde from acquiring the Golden Fleet which would have let them match them in a naval war and move against EK. Which was accomplished in the opening cinematic and could have been accomplished by SI:7 without sacrificing anyone in Nazmir or anything else and with minimal civilian losses. Heck had the Alliance done that, Rastakhan would be looking at this "alliance" with the Horde as costing him his fleet but the desire for revenge would be far lesser than the desire to NOT engage with the Alliance any further (and how could he, with no fleet) so he probably would have kicked them out.

Imo Rastakhan should have died vs Zul or something similar but the way Zul died was stupid as well. The entire G'huun plot was.

[Alanar]

Hey we are all allowed to have our bias. I get what you liked about Rastakhan, I liked him too, great voice acting and they nailed the charisma.

And lorewise I think the entire raid was stupid. It was a great raid for gameplay but the goal of the Alliance was to stop the Horde from acquiring the Golden Fleet which would have let them match them in a naval war and move against EK. Which was accomplished in the opening cinematic and could have been accomplished by SI:7 without sacrificing anyone in Nazmir or anything else and with minimal civilian losses. Heck had the Alliance done that, Rastakhan would be looking at this "alliance" with the Horde as costing him his fleet but the desire for revenge would be far lesser than the desire to NOT engage with the Alliance any further (and how could he, with no fleet) so he probably would have kicked them out.

Imo Rastakhan should have died vs Zul or something similar but the way Zul died was stupid as well. The entire G'huun plot was.

Ye I agree and yes you are right my bias showed, sorry about that, couldnt help myself. I literally had a handfull of character since vanilla who I hoped would show up one day and I thought our time with him was to short.

Zul and Ghuun, ye, the plot of Ghuun was stupid I agree. Zul would have been a perfectly fine end boss vs Rastakahn altho I had my own wishes, so instead of dying he would be greatly injured and that would have been the turning point and pass on the mantle. I loved the cinematic between the two, it took them way to long to get some cool trolls in a cinematic. I really thought the diversion was way to obvious and pretty darn stupid to send all hes troops. It was an unfair raid and it should have felt a little better of either Jaina or gelbin died as well. The arrogance of jaina there was the icing on the cake for me.

My other bias, is that I always hated jaina since warcraft 3. The op arcane canons and smug look of her only enhanced that. But this is not about her. Just something that came up 1 min ago

[Raetary]

"Old Azeroth HAS to be accessible still"

Why???

Because Blizzard would be shooting themselves in the foot by removing continents worth of content and would fuck over players that have enjoyed those zones and would otherwise still do that content, whether it's for lvling/experiencing the story or just farming transmog/pets/mounts/achievements.

Isn't that what Classic's for?

Newsflash, but Catalclysm is not available as a Classic server.
And it's unlikely to ever be avaible as one.

Why can't Azeroth be fully HD and newly revamped?

???
Having the old zones still available and fully revamping the continents is not mutually exclusive.
Idk why you would even assume that.

It can be as simple as putting Zidormi in SW/Org and if you want to visit old Kalimdor/EK, you can simply talk to her.
Just how old/new zone phasing works right now.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I really thought the diversion was way to obvious and pretty darn stupid to send all hes troops. It was an unfair raid and it should have felt a little better of either Jaina or gelbin died as well. The arrogance of jaina there was the icing on the cake for me.

My other bias, is that I always hated jaina since warcraft 3. The op arcane canons and smug look of her only enhanced that. But this is not about her. Just something that came up 1 min ago

There's quite little to hate Jaina over, so I'm rather confused about that; however, it is of course the case that nu-Jaina is nothing like her initial portrayal, so I can agree with you about her new portrayal being insufferable. Initially, she was a rather welcome addition to the cast. In WarCraft III, although she had some awkward moments (her portrayal in TFT was greatly underwhelming on basically every front), she was generally a competent technocrat who only was interested in doing what was sensible for the general good of humanity, and it has been downhill since then. In WoW, she was initially completely devoid of any drive or desire to better her people, only to maintain peace without much exploration of why she was interested in preserving peace back in TFT. In MoP, she was effectively replaced with a wholly different character. Though it may have been interesting in theory to see her devotion to peace tested, her portrayal since then became increasingly schizophrenic. In BfA, of course, she became an Anduinite, effectively returning to her Vanilla portrayal but with all its failings inordinately magnified—worse yet, she was fully absorbed into that portrayal in Shadowlands, losing anything that could effectively distinguish herself as being who she was, joining the great hegemon of the Anduinite hive-mind.

[Raetary]

Then have Blizzard make Cata servers then.

Cata's revamp replaced the Classic Old World. Why wouldn't they do the same?

What you say is not an argument, cause otherwise the Classic Old World would still be available on Retail, which we know it's not.

Cata's revamp replaced the old world because the old world was made out of paper mache, and Blizzard didn't have the technical capabilities to keep the old zones around.

In the current day, they do.

So why the fuck would Blizzard spend millions on relaunching cataclysm that would probably end up being rather unpopular, instead of simply *not* pissing off their players and doing the straightforward thing by having cata available in addition to the new Azeroth?

The Old Zones suck dick

As someone who plays through cataclysm as my prefered lvling experience, and farm cata content for mounts and mog on the regular, you are very wrong.

If you hate the zones that much, nobody would be forcing you to experience them.
You can just *not* go there, and leave it for the rest of us that do want to still play in them.

[Nymrohd]

In BfA, of course, she became an Anduinite, effectively returning to her Vanilla portrayal but with all its failings inordinately magnified—worse yet, she was fully absorbed into that portrayal in Shadowlands, losing anything that could effectively distinguish herself as being who she was, joining the great hegemon of the Anduinite hive-mind.

I still don't get why Jaina, Baine and Thrall had to be there for Shadowlands. If we wanted someone to agonize over Anduin, the man who was there for him when his father was not was more than adequate and having Taelia next to him on those cutscenes would have created far better drama; the daughter send away and the fostered son who emotionally replaced her is the stuff drama is made of.
Moreover none of those three were really a danger to Zovaal's plan in any way; only the player and Tyrande were ever a problem. They clearly needed someone strongly aligned to the light for their plan so Anduin, Velen, Liadrin or heck Calia would have been a better choice. It just showed them struggle to tell a story without using their favourite characters and was only ever damaging to them.

[Makabreska]

So why the fuck would Blizzard spend millions on relaunching cataclysm that would probably end up being rather unpopular, instead of simply *not* pissing off their players and doing the straightforward thing by having cata available in addition to the new Azeroth?

We don't know what the actual cost of Classic expansions is, and we don't know what people said in the 2022 poll about Cata Classic. We will know, when they decide to launch or not launch it.

[Nymrohd]

We don't know what the actual cost of Classic expansions is, and we don't know what people said in the 2022 poll about Cata Classic. We will know if they decide to launch or not launch it.

Honestly, if they just went ahead and did it three times, I'd say the cost is probably very manageable.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I still don't get why Jaina, Baine and Thrall had to be there for Shadowlands. If we wanted someone to agonize over Anduin, the man who was there for him when his father was not was more than adequate and having Taelia next to him on those cutscenes would have created far better drama; the daughter send away and the fostered son who emotionally replaced her is the stuff drama is made of.
Moreover none of those three were really a danger to Zovaal's plan in any way; only the player and Tyrande were ever a problem. They clearly needed someone strongly aligned to the light for their plan so Anduin, Velen, Liadrin or heck Calia would have been a better choice. It just showed them struggle to tell a story without using their favourite characters and was only ever damaging to them.

Oh, absolutely none of them ought to have been present; why not focus on characters that are actually relevant to the subject of the expansion? What about Darion, who barely got any time to do anything interesting? What about Bolvar? You know, the guy on the cover of the expansion? Why did we spend so long chasing Anduin with a set of people not even tangentially connected to the primary topic? I would understand if this led to Jaina having a moment with Arthas, yet she did not. Instead, she got to watch Sylvanas give a soliloquy over Arthas as he turned into a blue orb and disintegrated from existence forever.