Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Val the Moofia Boss]

a fully scaling world like GW2's, so every zone remains evergreen and you can always return there and finds things to do with people.

When Blizzard was in its GW2 copy paste and desperate to stop bleeding players phase, during WoW's most execrable expansion which bled like 40% of the playerbase, they created the Timeless Isle, which like mentioned above, was a no tagging zone (mostly) focused around easy grouping and encouraging cooperation to take down difficult enemies.

First of all, the comparison only holds if you fixate exclusively on patch 5.4. Timeless Isle was only relevant during the 14 month long SoO period, when it was the latest content and its rewards were relevant. Once WoD happened and the gear treadmill progressed, Timeless Isle was forgotten. Meanwhile, people are still running 9 year old GW2 maps such as the Silverwastes, because there isn't a gear treadmill that has invaldiated those rewards. Blizzard would have to move away from a gear treadmill model in order for a GW2-styled world where all zones are relevant to work.

The second issue is that WoW's quality of game design has regressed from the TI days. Blizzard used to be good at analyzing game design, figuring out what other games did right and what they didn't. GW2 has 10 years of event design that has been thoroughly broken down in blogs and on forums, but whoever designed the Dragonflight events didn't even bother to do basic research given how bad the soup and Primalist Future events are.

It's just the short-sighted takes like "Just add WQs in every zone to make the entire world relevant xD" are gonna hurt the game more than it will help it.

World quests aren't engaging gameplay like Timeless Isle' rare trains or GW2's event trains are.

It's crazy cause TBC and Classic was terrible in terms of story development

It's unfair to judge TBC by modern standards. At the time, the WoW devs hadn't realized the possibility of telling a pseudo singleplayer RPG experience through an MMO. Phasing didn't exist yet. They only started to realize it during Wrath and Cata.

[Nymrohd]

I think you can read into what particular writers care about and what their habits are from piecing together interviews and the content they're credited with over the years, though. Afrasiabi has a pretty apparent destructive, flippant approach to how he handled things. It seems like the less Metzen got involved, the more Afrasiabi liked to break apart the world and characters he largely created. Hell, looking back on Cataclysm as a whole is bizarre, a large part of it just feels like the team taking the piss out of the whole setting and tripling down on using it as a vehicle for humor (or to recycle movie scripts word for word).

I mean I hear that but did you see TBC? My feeling with TBC was "well maybe we will do one more expac so let's use everything) and then by the time they got to Wrath they were "Now what?"

[Murlocos]

I mean I hear that but did you see TBC? My feeling with TBC was "well maybe we will do one more expac so let's use everything) and then by the time they got to Wrath they were "Now what?"

Oh you'll get no defense of TBC/Wrath from me. For as much as you can criticize some of the recent expansions for flying through storylines too fast, those first two were just throwing everything at the wall as a raid boss with reckless abandon. As was mentioned, you know it's bad when they make a major lore character an in-universe joke about their own writing in the same expansion.

[Makorus]

First of all, the comparison only holds if you fixate exclusively on patch 5.4. Timeless Isle was only relevant during the 14 month long SoO period, when it was the latest content and its rewards were relevant. Once WoD happened and the gear treadmill progressed, Timeless Isle was forgotten. Meanwhile, people are still running 9 year old GW2 maps such as the Silverwastes, because there isn't a gear treadmill that has invaldiated those rewards. Blizzard would have to move away from a gear treadmill model in order for a GW2-styled world where all zones are relevant to work.

The second issue is that WoW's quality of game design has regressed from the TI days. Blizzard used to be good at analyzing game design, figuring out what other games did right and what they didn't. GW2 has 10 years of event design that has been thoroughly broken down in blogs and on forums, but whoever designed the Dragonflight events didn't even bother to do basic research given how bad the soup and Primalist Future events are.




World quests aren't engaging gameplay like Timeless Isle' rare trains or GW2's event trains are.




It's unfair to judge TBC by modern standards. At the time, the WoW devs hadn't realized the possibility of telling a pseudo singleplayer RPG experience through an MMO. Phasing didn't exist yet. They only started to realize it during Wrath and Cata.

Timeless Isle Rare Trains or GW2 Meta Trains are not engaging gameplay, they are literally carrot on a sticks. They are the definition of skinner boxes. World Quests don't have the same effect because the reward is deterministic.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Timeless Isle Rare Trains or GW2 Meta Trains are not engaging gameplay, they are literally carrot on a sticks. They are the definition of skinner boxes. World Quests don't have the same effect because the reward is deterministic.

I'm talking about game design, the flow of the experience. In a GW2 event chain, you are being smoothly directed from one event to the next, performing different activities for a couple minutes, and you have a narrative that cobbles the whole experience together. You enter Verdant Bring. The first event in the chain has you descend the cliff and clear out the three Mordrem vine monsters and a few trash around them. Takes a couple minutes. End of event. 30 second break as Laranthir arrives. Second event begins as Laranthir and the Pale Reavers begin pushing across the bridge, so now you are participating in escort gameplay. A minute later, you climb up the stairs and the group stops. End of second event. 30 second period of rest. Then the raptor packs attack, and you can pick up a sniper rifle to pick them off as they approach, or melee them when they come up the stairs. Do that for a minute, then event done. 15 second break. Then you are pushing into the fortress. Etc.

The WoW world quest gameplay of landing at a location, spending 5 minutes straight fighting Gnoll elites with damagesponge healthpools to slowly push a bar to 100% for a measly few hundred gold and feeling too exhausted to mount up and fly to another disconnected world quest and do the exact same thing all over again is not fun. The Primalist Future event gameplay of standing at a portal and whacking away at incoming waves of mobs for 10 minutes, and then spending 10 minutes whacking a damagesponge boss is not fun. The Tuskurr soup event of tediously running around to vendors for 15 minutes straight is not fun.

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Or look at Silverwastes. You enter the map. Then you push down a lane and perform your first event: capturing one of the four forts. Once you capture it, you get a short break, then the next event begins where you cleanup the fort of debris. Break. Then you begin repairing the walls. Break. Then you need to go out and either escort caravans to the fort to upgrade it, or go help capture the other forts. Then eventually the Mordrem will attack the fort and you have to come back and defend it. And so on.

Second half of Dragon's End (not the first half, everyone agrees that's poorly designed) where you are escorting one of the NPCs, then break. Then miniboss. Break. Go help out the other lanes. Break. Then you have to collect the void crystals and pass them up the line of players to restore the Brand magic to Aurene. Break. Then the ascent to the Harvest Temple. Break. Big final boss battle of the game.

[Nymrohd]

Timeless Isle Rare Trains or GW2 Meta Trains are not engaging gameplay, they are literally carrot on a sticks. They are the definition of skinner boxes. World Quests don't have the same effect because the reward is deterministic.

TI rare train worked in some weird way because at least in my realm it was VERY social. People were always joking on general, several of the camp spots turned into Mammoth and Yak trains. I felt it was some combination of the size and terrain, the respawns timers and maybe the addons that were used at that time? Rare trains in later zones tend to be so hectic because you never really have a chance to socialize.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

And world quests are not daily anymore, which I think Shadowlands did fine but now its not. Wish they'd fix that. I didn't mind doing them daily. Hunting for Rares is.... ok but its not the most engaging thing ever. It should exist for sure though, same with treasure chests and such. The hunts are different but I think that should be a new open world thing to add in line with world quests.

[Makorus]

And world quests are not daily anymore, which I think Shadowlands did fine but now its not. Wish they'd fix that. I didn't mind doing them daily. Hunting for Rares is.... ok but its not the most engaging thing ever. It should exist for sure though, same with treasure chests and such. The hunts are different but I think that should be a new open world thing to add in line with world quests.

Worlds Quests not being daily is one of the best things they've done this expansion.

[Kokolums]

I miss the emissaries where you had 3 days to complete the quest. Those were hyper engaging. Some of them started to build large masses of players in one area enjoying the hell out of it.

[Gurahk]

I miss the emissaries where you had 3 days to complete the quest. Those were hyper engaging. Some of them started to build large masses of players in one area enjoying the hell out of it.

I also remember how they were called chore content. Like every aspect of the game apparently is.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Worlds Quests not being daily is one of the best things they've done this expansion.

No thanks, I disagree heavily. You don't have to do them.

I also remember how they were called chore content. Like every aspect of the game apparently is.

To be fair the renown system in DF is better then the SL version of it.

[Makorus]

No thanks, I disagree heavily. You don't have to do them.




To be fair the renown system in DF is better then the SL version of it.

The only argument for daily WQs is "It gave me something to do everyday" at which point you aren't playing the game to play the game but to cross things off a checklist.

[Nymrohd]

No thanks, I disagree heavily. You don't have to do them.

And you don't have to do them all on reset day. Goes both ways.

[Sondrelk]

The only argument for daily WQs is "It gave me something to do everyday" at which point you aren't playing the game to play the game but to cross things off a checklist.

I would argue that having something to do every day is important. I wouldnt go so far as to say that we should have as many World Quests as we did in previous expansions. But maybe stagger the ones we have so that they don't all reset at the same time.

[Revamp Man]

I would argue that having something to do every day is important. I wouldnt go so far as to say that we should have as many World Quests as we did in previous expansions. But maybe stagger the ones we have so that they don't all reset at the same time.

Make them reward only gold if you already did them once during a 3 day rotation

Example the ring of blood WQ
It gives epic gear or whatever the first time
Subsequent times it gives 600g
On the reset it gives the gear tier rewards

The cataloging quests give a bunch of rep or gold
Keep that the first time
Subsequent it gives half the gold until reset

[Nymrohd]

I would argue that having something to do every day is important. I wouldnt go so far as to say that we should have as many World Quests as we did in previous expansions. But maybe stagger the ones we have so that they don't all reset at the same time.

You have things to do every day. There is repeatable content, there are grinds and the vast majority of vignettes and rares in WoW give rewards on a daily reset.

[Civciv]

No thanks, I disagree heavily. You don't have to do them.




To be fair the renown system in DF is better then the SL version of it.

You don't have to do them all on reset day though? Lol.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I said that I'd prefer if Jaina kicked the bucket instead of him. Because he barely got any spotlight and he was killed off, while Jaina was hogging a spotlight for ALOT of time, and she constantly flip flops persnalitywise. She is either mad/irrational or strives again to bring peace. If Jaina was on warpath again, trying to do what her father tried to do in the past, it would be fitting end for her to die exactly as her father did - trying to invade foreign nation, and bring destruction on it's way instead of focusing on actual enemy.

With Rastakhan it owuld be much better to watch him get back to show what a great leder he was in the past and justify his years on the throne, he had amazing personality and was fun to be around. And lastly. Did Horde even had a proper family dynamic? I know that Thrall has kids, but we never saw him interact with them.
So Talanji and Rastakhan would be first proper family among major Horde NCPs. It would be great to watch father and daughter interact and learn from one another.

So I disagree with you wholeheartly, that was a massive waste. And to me as a troll fan, it's even more upseting, that he didn't even last until end of expansion. Guy was killed in the first patch. My goodness. It's absolutely awful. And his replacement isn't half as entertaining as he is.

Eh, I feel the intersection between Jaina and Rastakhan in the narrative is too small compared to their places on the role; Having Jaina die on the attack of Zuldazar would have rung hollow pretty much the other way around. NGL, if Jaina had remained on the warpath up to Zandalar it might have worked, but 10.0 has been pretty much about resetting Jaina to a more pre-Theramore mental state, so it really wouldn't had made sense.

And again, the issues with Rastakhan exist mostly divorced from his interaction with Jaina; anything could have killed him and fulfilled the same intended emotional punch. So again, weird to make this a "Jaina should have died" when they matter so little to each other's narrative paths.

I won't disagree with Rastakhan's death is a waste because beyond the emotional punch nothing was really done with it even when it WAS a good set up and tragic end of a character, but if we're going to be honest had Rastakhan lived he wouldn't have done anything else the rest of BfA, pretty much like Talanji

[Sondrelk]

Eh, I feel the intersection between Jaina and Rastakhan in the narrative is too small compared to their places on the role; Having Jaina die on the attack of Zuldazar would have rung hollow pretty much the other way around. NGL, if Jaina had remained on the warpath up to Zandalar it might have worked, but 10.0 has been pretty much about resetting Jaina to a more pre-Theramore mental state, so it really wouldn't had made sense.

And again, the issues with Rastakhan exist mostly divorced from his interaction with Jaina; anything could have killed him and fulfilled the same intended emotional punch. So again, weird to make this a "Jaina should have died" when they matter so little to each other's narrative paths.

I won't disagree with Rastakhan's death is a waste because beyond the emotional punch nothing was really done with it even when it WAS a good set up and tragic end of a character, but if we're going to be honest had Rastakhan lived he wouldn't have done anything else the rest of BfA, pretty much like Talanji

The problem with Rastakhan's death to me was the same as all hte other issues in BfA. The Horde became too cartoonishly evil under Sylvanas, and the Alliance was too toothless in retaliation.
It was difficult to have sympathy for Rastakhan when he knowingly harbored people who had just destroyed most of a civilization quite happily. You couldnt really have him turn on his heel and lament how terrible it was that the Alliance was so intent on stopping the Horde.
Conversely, the Alliance should have been much more vengeful. Killing Rastakhan should have been a small moral stumbling stone, not the sign for a screeching halt to the offensive.

[Nymrohd]

The problem with Rastakhan's death to me was the same as all hte other issues in BfA. The Horde became too cartoonishly evil under Sylvanas, and the Alliance was too toothless in retaliation.
It was difficult to have sympathy for Rastakhan when he knowingly harbored people who had just destroyed most of a civilization quite happily. You couldnt really have him turn on his heel and lament how terrible it was that the Alliance was so intent on stopping the Horde.
Conversely, the Alliance should have been much more vengeful. Killing Rastakhan should have been a small moral stumbling stone, not the sign for a screeching halt to the offensive.

I'd counter that the Alliance killing Rastakhan made no sense. The Horde wanted ONE thing from the Zandalari; the Golden Fleet so they could both defend Kalimdor and attack Stormwind/retake Lordaeron. They should have blown up the Fleet and then laughed their way to Orgrimmar. By killing Rastakhan they effectively forced a weaker leader to ally with the Horde for protection both within her kingdom and from the Alliance. Obviously that absolutely moronic scenes that happens after the raid when Anduin's mere presence changes everyone perception on how a war should be conducted should never have happened. Blow up the fleet, strand significant Horde forces in what would then have been a politically hostile to them Zandalar and then regroup to attack Orgrimmar.

But the entire plot of BfA required the Alliance to have a collective lobotomy to work anyway. "Omg the Forsaken used the Blight, who could have ever predicted that!!!"

As for the Alliance being vengeful, the story makes a point to present the Alliance as weak every chance it gets, even though they keep winning which is just nonsense. How could they be vengeful when they did not have troops for anything.