Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Reive]

Ah so you wanna keep killing random kobolds then. Also FYI it isn't just FF that can do this. It's every game on the planet. WoW has been way behind for years.

yes? as long as it's cool. i don't care about the "main" story of the game especially when the best they can come up with is the avengers ripoff. wow' strength lies in its gameplay and the charm of its world. the writers do better when they focus on smaller questlines. the main narrative is not only not for them but also overrated

[Eldryth]

Keep in Mind they never said when or if the Titans actually come to azeroth. Heck, "the Last Titan" title suggests if the Titans die it happens before that expansion.

Metzen did say that they'd be returning to Azeroth in The Last Titan. Personally, I'm expecting the title to become the case in the climax of the expansion- we'll see the Pantheon get wiped out (whether by Iridikron, us, Sargeras... hard to guess before we learn the big secrets), then we'll finally face Sargeras himself leaving Azeroth as the final Titan. Though that's pure speculation, and The Last Titan's story seems harder than most to predict since it hinges on some big reveals that we don't have yet.

I mean it would not be about getting his story resolved. It would be about getting his story TOLD.

Which would be very hard to do if he's killed off 2+ expansions before the event his story is building towards, as people were talking about. Maybe they could make it work if we stopped him shortly before the Titans arrive, but if he were crammed into a small Dragonflight raid or TWW, it'd almost certainly feel like his story was cut short.

I do wonder if he might have been originally planned as Dragonflight's final boss, and changed to a longer-term threat when Metzen came back with the Saga idea... but as of right now, Dawn of the Infinite has him set up as a The Last Titan threat.

[Xilurm]

yes? as long as it's cool. i don't care about the "main" story of the game especially when the best they can come up with is the avengers ripoff. wow' strength lies in its gameplay and the charm of its world. the writers do better when they focus on smaller questlines. the main narrative is not only not for them but also overrated

They absolutely do not. Where have you been for the last 6 years? Also, what you want is pure vanilla content. They stopped doing that after patch 1.12 lmao.

[Reive]

They absolutely do not. Where have you been for the last 6 years? Also, what you want is pure vanilla content. They stopped doing that after patch 1.12 lmao.

they do. self contained questlines are the best story content wow can offer. it's when the devs try to follow a long main storyline that things fall apart. they don't know how to make characters act in a realistic way and they also don't know how to balance build ups and payoffs.

[Xilurm]

they do. self contained questlines are the best story content wow can offer. it's when the devs try to follow a long main storyline that things fall apart. they don't know how to make characters act in a realistic way and they also don't know how to balance build ups and payoffs.

Which is why they're spreading this over 3 expansions.

[Reive]

Which is why they're spreading this over 3 expansions.

won't really change much. the quality of the dialogues and the consistency with the established lore are the main issue. spreading the story in 3 expansions won't save us from cutscenes like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpGy...hannel=Wowhead lmao

[Revamp Man]

So
Since nobody got a correct leak there's a theory that blizz was behind a couple to throw people off.

Also they apparently have some things out as pure misinformation to see who they invite inside are leaking information soo that's fun

On topic:
Now that the story is set to last 3 expansions I doubt we will get character whiplash like wrathion in 8.3 to 10.0

[Polybius]

they need to stop with this final fantasy like crap and focus on the strenghts of wow. the game was at its best when the focus wasn't on the narrative but the world as a whole.

I’d be up for smaller stories in the form of a revamp. But story absolutely matters even if just a little. We all so how badly Shadowlands went with the attempts to destroy its identity.

- - - Updated - - -

So
Since nobody got a correct leak there's a theory that blizz was behind a couple to throw people off.

Also they apparently have some things out as pure misinformation to see who they invite inside are leaking information soo that's fun

On topic:
Now that the story is set to last 3 expansions I doubt we will get character whiplash like wrathion in 8.3 to 10.0

Some of them were presumably hints for all 3. But this is a strategy they can use to out leakers. We’ve seen examples of this in the past with WoW devs. In other media with MCU and DbD leakers, and the firings that come after. Sony’s leaks were glorious.

[Ersula]

they need to stop with this final fantasy like crap and focus on the strenghts of wow. the game was at its best when the focus wasn't on the narrative but the world as a whole.

The world soul stuff (primarily because its extremely similar to FFXIV's story) is probably my least favorite motif in wow lore. Considering Metzen is back & one-third of the original rts games takes place on another planet, I'm hoping we leave Azeroth for a while. The Warcraft story is as much about Azeroth as it is about two cultures from two different planets coming into conflict.

“We have essentially the makings of two expansion teams and a live team. The live team handles content patches for World of Warcraft, which typically arrive every couple of months, while the other two teams are working on the next two expansions, which they refer to as 11 and 12."

“We’re doing things right now on 12 that under normal timeframe we would not be doing,” Hight said.

People are saying this means a faster expansion cadence...but 14.0 would be coming out in 2030 under a normal expansion cadence. (11.0 in 2024, 12.0 in 2026, 13.0 in 2028) Instead they're insinuating the content will be bigger (revamp of the old world) So I guess my question is, why are wowhead's speculation posts so stupid? WoW expansions last 2 years on average, not 3.

Which is why they're spreading this over 3 expansions.

It's crazy to say 2 years isn't long enough to tell an epic story. I get why they feel that way but it's 100% false. N'zoth was a waste in BFA not because they didn't have enough time, it's because they just don't know how to end a story. And the answer is you have to go smaller before you go bigger. They have to learn to do a small story before they do a big story & they aren't good at writing a small story.

So
Since nobody got a correct leak there's a theory that blizz was behind a couple to throw people off.

Also they apparently have some things out as pure misinformation to see who they invite inside are leaking information soo that's fun

It's more like they had barely nothing to show that there wasn't a leak. The Shadowlands and Dragonflight leaks came from supplemental material: They didn't do any of that for TWW. All they had to show was a logo and a Powerpoint presentation. That's pretty hard to leak.

And I don't think Blizzard was behind any of the leaks because all the leaks were more ambitious than what is planned. A fake leak isn't going to sound cooler than what they are actually doing.

[Hitei]

And I don't think Blizzard was behind any of the leaks because all the leaks were more ambitious than what is planned. A fake leak isn't going to sound cooler than what they are actually doing.

"Omg what if der was Cata 2!!!"
"Lordaeron!!! and there are like scarlet crusaders?!!!!"

Wow, so aMbItiOuS.

[Scyth]

I mean it would not be about getting his story resolved. It would be about getting his story TOLD.

Yeah I agree. I do hope he shows up a few times before the last titan xpac. Would feel awful if he is non-existent for 2 expansions and then shows up all of a sudden.

I bet we will see more of him and Xal in these next few patches leading up to TWW.

[Telogrus]

That's why I'm a little bummed the Incarnates didn't cause another sundering-like event. They could have just redrawn the maps entirely. The Original Azeroth is a completely unknown geography considering the Titans were just scooping up landmasses & hiding them in pocket dimensions. Knowing that I was expecting Vyranoth to unlock the elemental planes, helheim, Thros, etc. the same way the Dragon Isles were.

Fr, the Incarnates not breaking the barriers between the Elemental Planes and Azeroth is such a missed opportunity. With how hard Blizz has been trying to push the narrative that the Ordering of Azeroth is a bad thing, you’d think that the Primal Incarnates main goal would be to undo the creation of the Elemental Planes (which is probably the greatest change that the Titans imposed on Azeroth).

I wish that Vyranoth allied with the Aspects against Fyrakk purely out of convenience, and then betrayed them afterwards

[Vakir]

"Omg what if der was Cata 2!!!"
"Lordaeron!!! and there are like scarlet crusaders?!!!!"

Wow, so aMbItiOuS.

"Cata 2" would be ambitious depending what one means by that. Not so much in the sense if it was literally another calamity event that overtook every narrative thread on the way.

Redoing every single zone and every single quest area updated for the time skip IS ambitious if they were to do so with a lot of smaller, contained stories with a sense of continuity and meaning. But it would make far, far more sense to do that in 14.0 if this is truly some kind of broader story roadmap with a setup for "the next 20 years" after.

[Telogrus]

Any recent theories about that big revealation about Titans from Metzen announcement?
Grab tin-foiled hats, we come to speculation time!
Can it be that Titans are not Order aligned from start, its just Aman'Thul is infusing them with Order magic? Like other titans, aside Norgannon are not seems order-aligned.
Khaz - is more fire/earth elemental being than Order being.
Eonar - more Life above everything.
Golganneth - Air/Water elemental being.
Aggrammar and Sargeras - they like warriors than Order. Maybe Spirit-ones?
Or even Sargeras is Fel World Soul from the start. But was turned into Order being. And his "corruption" is like returning to his "roots"?
Aggramar can be Light aligned from the start. It can explain why Tyr is Light-based, or Light-using.

Could it be that Titans are not some Pantheon of Order, and just be most powerfull beings in material Universe, and Order via Aman'Thul just usurb others to Order reign?

I had a theory that the Titans are not the actual Pantheon of Order for several reasons.

1. The Titans are born from World Souls in the material plane instead of being created in their Zereth installation like the other Pantheons. We know the Forces are supposed to be in balance. That can’t be the case if one of the Pantheons can freely operate in the material plane while the orders are stuck in their cosmic realms.

2. The Titans seem much more powerful than the Eternal Ones. We beat two Eternal Ones fair and square with minimal help, and they don’t have planet level feats like the Titans do. You would assume that the Pantheons should be relative in power if the forces are supposed to be equal.

3. The Titans are very susceptible to corrupt from every force it seems. Telogrus was corrupted by the Void (the planet Sargeras sliced in half). Argus was corrupted by Death (he even went to the Shadowlands when he died instead of the Order Realm).

The recent revelation about Elune, Eonar, and Elun’ahir supports the idea that the Titans don’t naturally align with Order. Eonar being so eager to plant Elun’ahir, which seems to be essentially the Life equivalent of an Old God (given the parallels between Aman’thul plucking out both Y’Shaarj and Elun’ahir), would be a bit odd if she is supposed to be an innate being of Order. You also have to wonder why the Titans would need to suffuse Azeroth with Order if she is naturally supposed to be a being of Order. Wouldn’t she just have Order magic in her from the get-go?

[Ersula]

1. The Titans are born from World Souls in the material plane instead of being created in their Zereth installation like the other Pantheons. We know the Forces are supposed to be in balance. That can’t be the case if one of the Pantheons can freely operate in the material plane while the orders are stuck in their cosmic realms.

They name drop Zereth Ordus as their origin point. We have every reason to assume every Zereth has a depository that can harvest a world souls & deposit them into a constructed body, like the Sepulcher demonstrates at Zereth Mortis.

2. The Titans seem much more powerful than the Eternal Ones. We beat two Eternal Ones fair and square with minimal help, and they don’t have planet level feats like the Titans do. You would assume that the Pantheons should be relative in power if the forces are supposed to be equal.

We also beat Aggramar under the same circumstances. We only needed help to "kill" Argus which you aren't supposed to be able to do under normal circumstances. Otherwise they seem to have similar power levels.

3. The Titans are very susceptible to corrupt from every force it seems. Telogrus was corrupted by the Void (the planet Sargeras sliced in half). Argus was corrupted by Death (he even went to the Shadowlands when he died instead of the Order Realm).

Not all planets have world souls. For example, Draenor doesn't. Argus was corrupted by Sargeras not the forces of death: He forced the other titans to formally kill him sending him to the Shadowlands (Per the Jailer's plan) rather than what Titans normally do, remain on this plane in an incorporeal form.

The recent revelation about Elune, Eonar, and Elun’ahir supports the idea that the Titans don’t naturally align with Order. Eonar being so eager to plant Elun’ahir, which seems to be essentially the Life equivalent of an Old God (given the parallels between Aman’thul plucking out both Y’Shaarj and Elun’ahir), would be a bit odd if she is supposed to be an innate being of Order. You also have to wonder why the Titans would need to suffuse Azeroth with Order if she is naturally supposed to be a being of Order. Wouldn’t she just have Order magic in her from the get-go?

The Eternal Ones are affirmatively the Pantheon of Death & their domains don't all align with death either. We saw 4 distinctly different kinds of magic in the shadowlands (before this whole "Order magic" thing was ever a phrase") If the Prototypes at the Sepulcher are any indication, the First Ones imbued the Titans & their Analogs with specific powers for the jobs they were meant to carry out. As for the Tree, Aman'thul was likely just worried if Life became to potent on Azeroth it would become invasive like the infectious intelligent plant life of Draenor. (Life without Order.)

[Lady Atia]

I had a theory that the Titans are not the actual Pantheon of Order for several reasons.

1. The Titans are born from World Souls in the material plane instead of being created in their Zereth installation like the other Pantheons. We know the Forces are supposed to be in balance. That can’t be the case if one of the Pantheons can freely operate in the material plane while the orders are stuck in their cosmic realms.

2. The Titans seem much more powerful than the Eternal Ones. We beat two Eternal Ones fair and square with minimal help, and they don’t have planet level feats like the Titans do. You would assume that the Pantheons should be relative in power if the forces are supposed to be equal.

3. The Titans are very susceptible to corrupt from every force it seems. Telogrus was corrupted by the Void (the planet Sargeras sliced in half). Argus was corrupted by Death (he even went to the Shadowlands when he died instead of the Order Realm).

The recent revelation about Elune, Eonar, and Elun’ahir supports the idea that the Titans don’t naturally align with Order. Eonar being so eager to plant Elun’ahir, which seems to be essentially the Life equivalent of an Old God (given the parallels between Aman’thul plucking out both Y’Shaarj and Elun’ahir), would be a bit odd if she is supposed to be an innate being of Order. You also have to wonder why the Titans would need to suffuse Azeroth with Order if she is naturally supposed to be a being of Order. Wouldn’t she just have Order magic in her from the get-go?

You actually have a good point there - what if we not only get a "pantheon" of each force, but also old god equivalents? What if the world trees are actually life old gods? Not as much as living beings in the way the old gods are, but the purpose is the same. Do we know if Draenor had a world tree??

[Nymrohd]

They name drop Zereth Ordus as their origin point. We have every reason to assume every Zereth has a depository that can harvest a world souls & deposit them into a constructed body, like the Sepulcher demonstrates at Zereth Mortis.

Nope, they said they had secrets revealed in Zereth Ordos. So Order was the first to establish a strong contact with them. Eonar is just as aligned with Life as she is with Order. For all we know, Aggrammar could have a strong connection to Lumen as well.

[Auxis]

You actually have a good point there - what if we not only get a "pantheon" of each force, but also old god equivalents? What if the world trees are actually life old gods? Not as much as living beings in the way the old gods are, but the purpose is the same. Do we know if Draenor had a world tree??

Well, Draenor had the Sporemounds - which I would say equate to Old Gods, but on the Life end of the cosmic scale.

[Auxis]

So what are we supposed to do, just ignore the Zereth's and the First Ones? You may not like them but they are part of the game now. We had a whole expansion about it.

What are the devs supposed to do? Just ignore that they exist? Retcon an entire expansion?

[Varodoc]

So what are we supposed to do, just ignore the Zereth's and the First Ones?

That's exactly it, and it's exactly what Blizzard did at Blizzcon.

They certainly won't have any role in TWW, which is as far from a Cosmic expansion as possible, and they don't make sense to be referenced in Midnight, which is about Quel'Thalas. And you can easily make a storyline about "Evil Titans" or "Titan conspiracy" without involving that awful SL stuff.

People have been speculating that the Titans were hiding something long before SL and Danuser invented the cute little Cosmic facilities for every force.

And by the time the Worldsoul saga concludes, it will have been a decade since SL, so the average player will have most definitely forgotten about the SL "world-building".