Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[ChronoSul]

Let's not get into the whole "Zereth" nonsense, please.

I have a feeling Metzen is steering us away from that nonsense, thankfully. His focus at BlizzCon was much more on old school cosmic lore, such as the Titans, the Void, the Light, the Sunwell, and the worldsoul.

But yeah, we know Odyn has Light-based powers (on top of being a "Storm God" for some reason), and he was created by Aman'thul.

Zereth Ordus was literally named dropped in Dragonflight sorry to tell u this but I dont think we are moving away from the concept. I wouldnt be shocked if its the next one we visit probably at the end of The Last Titan. Would be fitting that the previous chapter of the warcraft story ended with visiting one Zereth & the next chapter to also end in one.

[Dracullus]

I have a feeling Metzen is steering us away from that nonsense, thankfully. His focus at BlizzCon was much more on old school cosmic lore, such as the Titans, the Void, the Light, the Sunwell, and the worldsoul.

Also I got the impression they are abandoning "everything is relative" thing where both Light and Void were presented as forces that want to opress us in different ways. When Metzen talked about Midnight, Light clearly sounded like positive force.

[Raetary]

TLT is literally the titans coming back and us finding out about a grand cosmic conspiracy.

First Ones lore isn't going anywhere.

[Varodoc]

TLT is literally the titans coming back and us finding out about a grand cosmic conspiracy.

First Ones lore isn't going anywhere.

People have been speculating about hidden Titan motives long before any SL lore lol.

People were already pointing out that Eonar was sketchy during the Legion days and how sketchy it was that the Titans created an actual Old God with capabilities and powers similar (albeit on a smaller scale) than those of the "Void" Old Gods in BfA.

The playerbase most certainly didn't need Danuser and his cute OC facilities to come up with their own theories and speculations about "Titan conspiracy" lol.

[Varodoc]

Metzen wasn't back yet when they wrote Dragonflight.

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Yeah, I think Metzen understands that people need something to feel inspired by. Something to rally around. Us vs them. It can't all just be "well from their point of view..."

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Yeah I don't think that lore is necessary at all for the Worldsoul Saga to work.

It's just historical revisionism and nothing more.

The playerbase was speculating about Evil Titans, Hidden Titan conspiracy, and all the rest long before any SL lore.

So the First Ones and Zereth lore from SL most certainly isn't needed to create a storyline around these subjects.

Eonar somehow being able to breach into Antorus the Legion capital, Eonar speaking to Magni in Antorus, the Titans creating an artificial Old God with corrupting powers similar (albeit weaker) to the Void Old Gods, literally everything about Odyn and the Val'kyrs, there were all plot threads that existed long before SL.

[Ersula]

Nope, they said they had secrets revealed in Zereth Ordos. So Order was the first to establish a strong contact with them. Eonar is just as aligned with Life as she is with Order. For all we know, Aggrammar could have a strong connection to Lumen as well.

But the Winter Queen wasn't made at Zereth Vitae; she was made at Zereth Mortis. My post addressed the type of Zereth clearly doesn't correspond with their specific abilities.

[Hitei]

It's hilarious that people think we're going to get into what the Titans have been doing since the start of the universe and not talk about the First Ones and SL cosmology.

[Raetary]

As far as I know, the words cosmic, First Ones, or Zereth Ordus weren't used anywhere in Metzen's description of The Last Titan.

He did mention Azeroth, Ulduar, Titans, and returning to the old world. None of these imply what you suggested.

Yeah, because the expansion involves all those things and he isn't gonna just shout out a synapsis of the climax of the trilogy, ~6 years before it happens?

You act as if "cosmic forces" are somehow antithetical to his worldbuilding, as if he wasn't one of the people to conceptualize them in the first place.

A Thousand Years of War, the audio drama that explcitily established the Void to be more sympathetic and the Light as a force that doesn't just float around and sing Kumbaya, was written while Metzen was still in office.

Metzen has been back with Blizzard for over a year now, before DF was even released.
And yet all the cosmological worldbuilding we got in the following patches in this expansion, keep further pushing the relativistic approach that they've been setting up for the last several years.

Like, what exactly do you think the "big titan conspiracy" is, if not the obvious thing that they've been building up to for a while?
Aman'thul screeching "thIs ISn'T oooooRRRRDDDEEErrrrr" at Eonar was written while he had an active hand in wows narrative development.

[Ersula]

It's hilarious that people think we're going to get into what the Titans have been doing since the start of the universe and not talk about the First Ones and SL cosmology.

People are proposing Metzen is going to just retcon or ignore that lore, but even if he doesn't like it he wouldn't just disregard it. Metzen isn't a hack; he isn't JJ Abrams.

Although if the "conspiracy" is that the forces are morally irrelevant & the 6 different forces are simply battling each other for cosmic territory: I'd want to tell Metzen that fact was pretty clear as soon as the Cosmology chart was revealed. We did not need FIVE expansions to reveal that to us.

[Ielenia]

They look rad, but I hate that they're 'evolved' nerubians. Like the humanoid form is so special and advanced. Bleh! Ptui! The best nerubians stay spidery.

While I understand where you're coming from, if you look at it with a more objective lens, it can be seen as better. After all, the smaller humanoid form would allow them to fit in smaller spaces, being small means also a smaller target, more agile, and from the looks of it, the usage of void magic seems to offset the loss in physical strength.

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And maybe she's a prisoner for a good reason.

The Primal Incarnates are batshit insane monsters and deserving of prison, so maybe Titans are still the good guys and it's Azeroth who is actually the threat.

Not quite. Initially they were simply against the Titans' meddling in Azeroth, and rebelled against them, which is what made the Titans want to imprison them. However, from ‎Vyranoth's initial conversations with Alexstrasza, we found out that the Incarnates were still pretty much conscious and aware during their prison stasis.

So the Incarnates spend twenty thousand years fully aware during their stasis prison, which only served to increase their anger and frustration toward the Titans, and likely what drove Fyrakk to complete madness. After all, Fyrakk may have already been a loose canon from the start, but Vyranoth also says that, before their imprisonment, Fyrakk was against the Titans alongside the others.

[Hitei]

People are proposing Metzen is going to just retcon or ignore that lore, but even if he doesn't like it he wouldn't just disregard it. Metzen isn't a hack; he isn't JJ Abrams.

Although if the "conspiracy" is that the forces are morally irrelevant & the 6 different forces are simply battling each other for cosmic territory: I'd want to tell Metzen that fact was pretty clear as soon as the Cosmology chart was revealed. We did not need FIVE expansions to reveal that to us.

I think the conspiracy is more likely that world souls have never been Titan eggs, and the Titans are just doing exactly what every other force (the Void Lords, Zovaal) is doing: attempting to use them turn them into a being of their specific faction to spread the influence of their power. Perhaps world souls aren't even supposed to hatch/become anything at all. They might just be sentient planets that are supposed to continue being sentient planets, and the Titans have been forcibly rebuilding them into Titans.

[Lady Atia]

While I understand where you're coming from, if you look at it with a more objective lens, it can be seen as better. After all, the smaller humanoid form would allow them to fit in smaller spaces, being small means also a smaller target, more agile, and from the looks of it, the usage of void magic seems to offset the loss in physical strength.

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Not quite. Initially they were simply against the Titans' meddling in Azeroth, and rebelled against them, which is what made the Titans want to imprison them. However, from ‎Vyranoth's initial conversations with Alexstrasza, we found out that the Incarnates were still pretty much conscious and aware during their prison stasis.

So the Incarnates spend twenty thousand years fully aware during their stasis prison, which only served to increase their anger and frustration toward the Titans, and likely what drove Fyrakk to complete madness. After all, Fyrakk may have already been a loose canon from the start, but Vyranoth also says that, before their imprisonment, Fyrakk was against the Titans alongside the others.

It also kinda creates a bridge between the Nerubians and the Klaxxi. It was always said they were originally from the same race, yet the Klaxxi are mostly humanoid with only a few, like their queen actually looking like a Nerubian.

[Makorus]

I think the conspiracy is more likely that world souls have never been Titan eggs, and the Titans are just doing exactly what every other force (the Void Lords, Zovaal) is doing: attempting to use them turn them into a being of their specific faction to spread the influence of their power. Perhaps world souls aren't even supposed to hatch/become anything at all. They might just be sentient planets that are supposed to continue being sentient planets, and the Titans have been forcibly rebuilding them into Titans.

I mean, in a way, the "forcibly rebuilding" idea would kinda mesh well with the scrapped Antorus "giant-titan-body-under-construction" room and Kin'garoth being labelled "TitanBuilder".

[huth]

Also I got the impression they are abandoning "everything is relative" thing where both Light and Void were presented as forces that want to opress us in different ways. When Metzen talked about Midnight, Light clearly sounded like positive force.

I don't recall him presenting the Light as much of anything in Midnight. Also, don't read to much into what wasn't stated. That they aren't talking about something doesn't mean they won't eventually do it.

[Makorus]

I don't recall him presenting the Light as much of anything in Midnight. Also, don't read to much into what wasn't stated. That they aren't talking about something doesn't mean they won't eventually do it.

I mean, he does say that you are "making a stand with the forces of the Light" to "banish the shadow forever".

Obviously, doesn't mean anything other than "We will ally with the Light for Launch".

[huth]

I mean, he does say that you are "making a stand with the forces of the Light" to "banish the shadow forever".

Obviously, doesn't mean anything other than "We will ally with the Light for Launch".

Which could just as easily be a ruse by the Light to get in our good graces. It doesn't say anything about the Light's position in things beyond that it is opposed to the Void. The enemy of your enemy may be useful cannonfodder.

[Telogrus]

You actually have a good point there - what if we not only get a "pantheon" of each force, but also old god equivalents? What if the world trees are actually life old gods? Not as much as living beings in the way the old gods are, but the purpose is the same. Do we know if Draenor had a world tree??

The crystal in Hallowfall is the Light equivalent of an Old God.

It was whispering to the Arathi from all the way across the sea, and it's mountain sized like an Old God is. There was a line in Chronicle about how shards of light were scattered throughout the universe, and some crash landed into planets. This sounds familiar to the Old God origin story of the Void launching millions of tentacle monsters throughout the universe so that some may land on planets with World Souls. And based on the trailer, there are some Light fanatics in Hallowfall that we'll be fighting.

[Nymrohd]

The crystal in Hallowfall is the Light equivalent of an Old God.

It was whispering to the Arathi from all the way across the sea, and it's mountain sized like an Old God is. There was a line in Chronicle about how shards of light were scattered throughout the universe, and some crash landed into planets. This sounds familiar to the Old God origin story of the Void launching millions of tentacle monsters throughout the universe so that some may land on planets with World Souls. And based on the trailer, there are some Light fanatics in Hallowfall that we'll be fighting.

Or it could be a shard of Light that got trapped on Azeroth as the World Soul was forming the planet around it. Perhaps the Naaru came to Mereldar exactly because they had located that shard and they wanted to find someone to protect it.

[Telogrus]

Or it could be a shard of Light that got trapped on Azeroth as the World Soul was forming the planet around it. Perhaps the Naaru came to Mereldar exactly because they had located that shard and they wanted to find someone to protect it.

I'm saying that those shards of Light are just giant Light crystals that the "Light Lords" flung out into the universe to corrupt World Souls, like the Old Gods. The fact that it was whispering to the Arathi from across the seas does sound eerily reminiscent of the Old Gods. From what we've heard about Hallowfall, it sounds like a lot of the inhabitants are very zealous, and we see in the trailer that we'll be fighting some of those Light fanatics.

[Makorus]

"Old Gods but Light" would be incredibly boring.