Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

Mm, no. It was just that the makers granted their gifts to the Titans in Zereth Ordus. They did this with all of their progeny. https://www.wowhead.com/item=201722/...ate-volume-742

"Third: Do not share knowledge of the First Ones.

Mortals could not conceive of the wonders that the makers granted to the titans in Zereth Ordus. Thus, learning of the Progenitors would only confuse them.

It is enough that mortals know the titans brought Order to the cosmos, and that they are owed deference."

The Titans are born of World Souls, such as Argus. How did they get granted their gifts in Zereth Ordus... without GOING to Zereth Ordus?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Imma be honest, I'm happy he's the aspect. Dude's more worthy than the other 2 jerks, that's for sure. But like...I still hate they gave us the option just to not go with it in the end. Just feels like the players choices do not matter.

While they both have problems Wrathion helped take down death wing fight the Sha and took down the last Old god and Seb saved there flight from exciton by keeping eggs and drakes in Outland where they could regrow.

Ebon horn has literally never done any thing for either the planet or his flight you couldn’t get more unworthy then him, like even the gnome who cleansed wrathion of corruption as an egg is more worthy then ebon horn.

[Berkilak]

Imma be honest, I'm happy he's the aspect. Dude's more worthy than the other 2 jerks, that's for sure. But like...I still hate they gave us the option just to not go with it in the end. Just feels like the players choices do not matter.

If you asked me before Dragonflight who I thought would be the best black Aspect, my answer would have been Ebonhorn. And it's quite likely that will come to fruition. It's just a shame that the entire story leading up to the moment is building up Emberthal instead of Ebonhorn himself. I would have preferred him getting an active role in the story that culminates with his ascension. If he becomes Aspect, it'll just be another surprise subversion moment substituting for actual dramatic catharsis.

(Also, I think Sabellian or Iridikron would have been the most interesting choices from a narrative standpoint.)

[Berkilak]

I know retcons aren't ideal. But I genuinely hope they retcon the crap out of all that additional cosmic lore they invented for Shadowlands.

Just hearing the word "Zereth" makes me nauseous.

I'm a fan of perpetual mystery in fiction. The fate of the Blue Wizards and Ent-wives in Lord of the Rings. The driving force for the return of Honored Matres in Dune. Akavir and the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The answer to all of these questions is always going to be less satisfying than the mystery itself, and the presence of these mysteries creates the illusion than the fictional setting is more expansive than it actually is.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't think we should even think about the other Zereths for now. It should be a long while before a Zereth is visited upon. Also I am sympathetic to the "Well we're eventually gonna go to all the Zereths and its predictable". We don't want to use up other lore threads for future eras(Expansions) super quickly.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't think we should even think about the other Zereths for now. It should be a long while before a Zereth is visited upon. Also I am sympathetic to the "Well we're eventually gonna go to all the Zereths and its predictable".

I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.

[Gurahk]

I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.

Seconding this.

[Hitei]

I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.

Zereths are perfectly fine, the other ones just don't need to be visited.

[Berkilak]

Let's not get bogged down with relitigating the quality of Shadowlands lore, unless it's directly relevant to the future.

[Cheezits]

Not really speculation but I do wonder if Emberthal and Sarkareth's general aesthetics should've been switched. It would've made more sense if the "Neltharion Wannabe" looked really similar to him, and Emberthal being Ebyssian's right hand would have more of an impact of she didn't look like a black dragon IMO.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I know retcons aren't ideal. But I genuinely hope they retcon the crap out of all that additional cosmic lore they invented for Shadowlands.

Just hearing the word "Zereth" makes me nauseous.

Bred from flesh-pools of lingering trite,
Danuser's drivel did take flight
And cast a dreadful blight:
Zereth, Zereth, Zereth...
Lingered o'er banks of fair Lethe,
Which spanned the way of sare death.
'twas Death which drew great guffaws
From groans grown from scarce applause;
Once-evident the precedent of once-forgotten laws,
Such cheap turgid swill makes one take pause.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I'm a fan of perpetual mystery in fiction. The fate of the Blue Wizards and Ent-wives in Lord of the Rings. The driving force for the return of Honored Matres in Dune. Akavir and the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The answer to all of these questions is always going to be less satisfying than the mystery itself, and the presence of these mysteries creates the illusion than the fictional setting is more expansive than it actually is.

In connection to the Dwemer, there is actually an answer to what happened to them,—I'll elaborate if you're unfamiliar, but I'll leave it spoilered in case you ever want to read C0DA or the like yourself,—but it's esoteric enough that it feels like a mystery in itself: what is alleged to have happened (at least in Kirkbride lore) is that the Dwemer soul-stacked in the subgradient (though it's unclear if all individuals involved consented or not) to form Anumidium, which served as the embodiment of their philosophy of refutation. Similarly, although this is far more dubious, some have asserted that Akavair is probably the Kalpa succeeding the one in which the Nirn we're familiar with exists (Akavir being a product of the events of C0DA), rather than another continent.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Their names are arguably worse than the Norse stuff in WoW. Vitae? Lumen? I'm not sure if these sound more like the ideas of a 12 year old aspiring author who just read Harry Potter for the first time and decided to give writing a shot, or a new line of smart home products found on Amazon. Either way, it's too damn on the nose to use well known Latin words for location names.

Latin is a tongue
Of beauty e'er profound.
But beware of overuse,
For such overuse abounds!
"Seek obscurer phrases, please!"
I'll say upon my knees,
For variety is key
To use it well, at least for me.

And though to say such things
May make me sound a geek,
Would it do you such great harm
To give a try to Greek?

- - - Updated - - -

- They spoil the magic. Suddenly, the Emerald Dream isn't just this cool and ultimate expression or nature and life. It now plays second fiddle to "Zereth Vitae", lol.
- They become too formulaic for creation myth lore, given how there are supposedly six of them, and we know how at least one of them looks and operates. Future expansions will feel like an Excel sheet waiting to be filled.

It doesn't help that the Cosmic Forces are ill-defined in scope and yet simultaneously too narrow and limited in their prospects. There's not much done to distinguish them or give them any metaphysical weight; this is bad enough when they're reduced to categories of Pokémon, but it also much means that any expansions cognate to them them will invariably be a jaunt through throngs of deliberately one-dimensional morons whose entire personalities are limited to their respective one-note subsections of the Cosmic Force in question.

As a further point of agreement, it's hardly riveting worldbuilding when everything is categorized so easily to begin with. It preempts much in the way of variety or unique exploration of the manifold facets of the universe when each of those facets are slotted comfortably into their respective Cosmic Forces.

[Berkilak]

In connection to the Dwemer, there is actually an answer to what happened to them,—I'll elaborate if you're unfamiliar, but I'll leave it spoilered in case you ever want to read C0DA or the like yourself,—but it's esoteric enough that it feels like a mystery in itself: what is alleged to have happened (at least in Kirkbride lore) is that the Dwemer soul-stacked in the subgradient (though it's unclear if all individuals involved consented or not) to form Anumidium, which served as the embodiment of their philosophy of refutation. Similarly, although this is far more dubious, some have asserted that Akavair is probably the Kalpa succeeding the one in which the Nirn we're familiar with exists (Akavir being a product of the events of C0DA), rather than another continent.

I'm familiar. The difference being that there are crumbs provided in Elder Scrolls for us to piece together what happened ourselves, and even then, there are still competing theories with varying degrees of legitimacy. There's a huge difference between that and simply picking up a quest and having the NPC spout the entire lore bible at you, not relevant to the current narrative. World building can be done as an exercise unto itself (Elden Ring and Dragonflight being great examples, in their own ways), but it cannot be relied upon to substitute for an actual narrative when delivering a narrative is the primary goal.

[Telogrus]

I hope we get a Vakthros megadungon in 10.2.5.

Vakthros is still a bit of a mystery, and iirc some people were speculating that it serves as a prison for enemies of the Blues. Would be cool if we fight Chromatus in there. Vakthros seems a bit too well designed for how criminally under used it is in DF. Why give it such a cool and imposing design if it's only relevant for like 3 story quests while leveling in Azure Span?

[Hugo88]

Next Patch 10.1.5 "Fractures in Time" is going to be Huge

There is an evil Chromie (oh Noes), & a lot of old characters come back through time travel with Chromie's help

There is Dragon riding in Kalimdor & new dungeons

Anyway Bellular explains more in this video

[Berkilak]

A little late to the party - that's been 90% of the discussion for the past 24 hours.

[Scyth]

A little late to the party - that's been 90% of the discussion for the past 24 hours.

It's a very obvious attempt to make people watch belular's video lol

Has blizzard said when the megadungeon will be available for testing btw? Can't see anything on the PTR (or maybe im daft and can't find it)

[Berkilak]

Why would someone do that? Is Blizzard giving YouTubers exclusive information these days?

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I'm familiar. The difference being that there are crumbs provided in Elder Scrolls for us to piece together what happened ourselves, and even then, there are still competing theories with varying degrees of legitimacy. There's a huge difference between that and simply picking up a quest and having the NPC spout the entire lore bible at you, not relevant to the current narrative. World building can be done as an exercise unto itself (Elden Ring and Dragonflight being great examples, in their own ways), but it cannot be relied upon to substitute for an actual narrative when delivering a narrative is the primary goal.

That's a strong point. I definitely agree that Blizzard could benefit from imitating Elder Scrolls, though I do feel the lack of mystery now may preclude that; an excess of information constructed around a highly constricted, specifically-categorized cosmological system is not conducive to speculation. The main issue with WoW's cosmology is that it is extremely limited in its prospects in spite of the nominal scale and weight that we're working with, and this has sort of put the cosmological worldbuilding into a precarious situation for which there seems to be no recourse.