Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[huth]

Next Patch 10.1.5 "Fractures in Time" is going to be Huge

There is an evil Chromie (oh Noes), & a lot of old characters come back through time travel with Chromie's help

There is Dragon riding in Kalimdor & new dungeons

And a good morning to you too. I hope your sleep went well, long as it was.

[Hitei]

Disagree on this one.

- They spoil the magic. Suddenly, the Emerald Dream isn't just this cool and ultimate expression or nature and life. It now plays second fiddle to "Zereth Vitae", lol.

I don't know what people's obsession with Zereth Vitae - Emerald Dream is. Hell, I don't understand people's obsession with the Dream to begin with. Not only are these two entirely different things, one being the the architect system for a hypothetical lifelands (this would be the actual Emerald Dream supplanter--which I feel like speaks to the quality of lore understanding typical to the out of hand dismissal of Zereths as a concept), the other being a back-up blueprint of Azeroth formed from shaped dreams of the world soul. But also the Dream was never anything cosmically important to begin with. It's role in lore was always being a glorified Titan experiment on Azeroth that fell to Old God corruption, the parallel to the elemental planes associated with the planet.

It doesn't have a place in the greater cosmic heirarchy to be replaced by a hypothetical lifelands, let alone any direct competition with a universe-rewriting, reality-crafting installation.

- They become too formulaic for creation myth lore, given how there are supposedly six of them, and we know how at least one of them looks and operates. Future expansions will feel like an Excel sheet waiting to be filled.

The nature of magic in wow has always been formulaic, so I don't understand how this complaint works. Are you also annoyed that each element has an elemental plane that is the most straightforward and obvious use of its elemental structure? The air one is in the air, and the water one is in the water, and the earth one is in the earth and the fire one is full of fire and lava. Are you annoyed that every great/world tree has some sort of portal to the Emerald Dream? Were you already annoyed to begin with that, before the Pattern was introduced, every one of the six cosmic forces had an associated <Pantheon> structure, and an associated school of magic? That, before the cosmic forces were outlined, the Titans themselves followed a straightforward checklist of each Titan corresponding to a specific domain?

This seems like such a completely arbitrary line to draw. Patterns are a fundamental of narrative structure. You're talking about an IP that, at it's most fundamental, original level, was formulaic <Orcs> vs <Humans>. Every step of the entire Warcraft universe has been developed as formulaic counter-balances and shared power structed; the Alliance and Horde, the Void and Light, the five Dragon Aspects each with their own color and domain and powers/elements, the four elemental schools each with their own Elemental Lord and Plane and split properties, etc. The seven Titans of the Pantheon, the ""four"" Old Gods contained in their own titan facilities with their own brand of bug-monsters, the six Cosmic Forces.

Why is the six cosmic realms and their associated Zereth installations the point where suddenly you're drawing a line?

- Their names are arguably worse than the Norse stuff in WoW. Vitae? Lumen? I'm not sure if these sound more like the ideas of a 12 year old aspiring author who just read Harry Potter for the first time and decided to give writing a shot, or a new line of smart home products found on Amazon. Either way, it's too damn on the nose to use well known Latin words for location names

Seems pretty nitpicky for a game that all but copy-pasted Lovecraft's cosmic entity names for its Lovecraftian cosmic entities. Named the group that rules over the Void, "Void Lords", calls death-magic using knights "Death Knights", people who dedicate themselves to hunting demons "Demon Hunters", dark-skinned nocturnal elves, "Night Elves", and the big bad killer dragon... "Deathwing".

But sure, yes, the names are just simple Latin words for the associated cosmic force.

-

Personally I find the First Ones and their installations and the Pattern to be a nice piece of bounding lore, and the natural extrapolation of the six sided cosmic forces structure--and it represents a strong reservoir to drip feed lore tidbits from and four additional planes to pull in encroaching threats from for future expansions.

I think people just like dogpiling whatever talking point is the big one at any given point in the game's lifespan without really putting much thought in it, and for Shadowlands it was "oh muh god, da lore is ruined!" (even though most of the people complaining about it were the sort to never give a shit about lore to begin with). It was pretty obvious this was what was happening when you had a whole bunch of people suddenly insisting that "death doesn't matter anymore!" as if it ever had in this IP.

[huth]

Can we not call the Zereth's "installafions"? They're far more than simply that. They're the origin point of the Cosmic Domains.

It's a pretty accurate description of what they are. Installations and factories. They're important factories, sure, but they're still just factories.


Exactly what the Deam is has never fully been clarified. We don't even know for certain if the Titans made it or simply co-opted it. We don't know for sure how closely they are tied to the Gardens of Life, either.

[Raetary]

On the topic of a potential world revamp, can anyone think of a zone which is basically a modern version of Elwynn? I'm struggling.

Because if there isn't one, that's pretty crazy. Elwynn represents the quintessential fantasy experience. Human players who are drawn to that setting basically have nowhere to go, heh.

There isn't a perfectly analogous one, but Arathi is pretty much Elwynn just stripped of most of its trees.

[huth]

Well, if you want to use that logic, the rest of the Cosmology is an installation of the First Ones. Of course, the Zereths are the workshops, but still.

And we have a bigger idea than you think. The implication seems to be that the Dream is Elune's Realm, and that the Titans (or at least the Keepers, more specifically Keeper Freya) simply attuned Azeroth and its soul/dreams with the Emerald Dream for said Blueprints to occur.

Yes, it is. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, but that's a perfectly accurate description.

Also, that's just repeating what i said while overestimating the degree of certainty we have on that information. We don't actually know any of that. Most of it is just vague guesses or unverified and often conflicting stories.

[Cheezits]

Just saw the questline for the Infinite dungeon, its very much lighthearted shenanigans with Chromie leading up to the dungeon opening. Maybe it's a smokescreen for what happens in the dungeon itself, but maybe its a sign that Noz actually makes it out intact?

[Khaza-R]

On the topic of a potential world revamp, can anyone think of a zone which is basically a modern version of Elwynn? I'm struggling.

Because if there isn't one, that's pretty crazy. Elwynn represents the quintessential fantasy experience. Human players who are drawn to that setting basically have nowhere to go, heh.

Nothing really similar. Closest thing in my opinion would be Stormsong if it had more trees.

That said, Avaloren sounds like something very traditional fantasy. So maybe that will evoke some Elwynn vibes.

- - - Updated - - -

Just saw the questline for the Infinite dungeon, its very much lighthearted shenanigans with Chromie leading up to the dungeon opening. Maybe it's a smokescreen for what happens in the dungeon itself, but maybe its a sign that Noz actually makes it out intact?

I think its entirely possible we see some type of reformed infinites after whatever unfolds in the dungeon. Isn't that the whole reason their Oathstone began working again?

[Cheezits]

I think that the Dream patch will feature both the Red and Green flights, and will have a Sun and Moon duelling theme. The Sun stuff may be Light oriented or it may just be the Sun.

Couple of things pointing to the Sun/Light thing...

- A reintroduction of Moon AND Sun theme for Night Elves that started with their old racial. The new Moonsaber and Warden sets have both Solar and Lunar tints. Nelves have barely had any sun stuff until recently, to the point that people started getting mad about the solar tints (wtf no they are moon only etc)

- The Priest set is themed after Alex, but includes light wings and and a halo

- The datamined Green Dragons Finery includes Blue and Yellow tints

- The Sun Cat shop mount has a sunny light theme and will likely appear this expansion as a regular creature

- Some light stuff seems inevitable after a patch with shadow and void

- Alex and Ysera are sisters, so they may mirror that with Ysera and Elune vs Alex and ??? (Tyr? Anshe? both seem to have an affinity for Light)

We have green forest zones and blue forest zones tied to the Dream already, so a summer themed area would make sense next as well.

[Cheezits]

Also saw this post from an artist. They really are retooling the concept of the Void to make sure it's distinct from the Black Empire.

https://twitter.com/ez_wizard/status...xvHZHFljvN8ivg

[micwini]

Its been known for quite a while that void is not just old gods. Just like Death is not just skeletons/light blue crap. We saw that in shadowlands.

[Raetary]

Also saw this post from an artist. They really are retooling the concept of the Void to make sure it's distinct from the Black Empire.

https://twitter.com/ez_wizard/status...xvHZHFljvN8ivg

This makes me want more spell effects customization.

Imagine a green fire questline but for priests, and the reward is these spell effects for Shadow to replace the regular ones.

- - - Updated - - -

Its been known for quite a while that void is not just old gods. Just like Death is not just skeletons/light blue crap. We saw that in shadowlands.

Even for Old Gods, their powers manifests differently.

Y'shaarjs influence and the sha manifest very very different to the void powers of the other 3.

[Khaza-R]

This makes me want more spell effects customization.

Imagine a green fire questline but for priests, and the reward is these spell effects for Shadow to replace the regular ones.

Its kind of criminal there's never been an alternative visual for shadowform considering priests are stuck with it. I always hoped there would be a more bluish tint like that concept art of the Void or maybe something with white tones mixed in, like the Sha.

Maybe if we ever get MT 2.0 its something they can consider.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Also saw this post from an artist. They really are retooling the concept of the Void to make sure it's distinct from the Black Empire.

https://twitter.com/ez_wizard/status...xvHZHFljvN8ivg

It is aesthetically-impressive. I am hoping to see an option for Shadow Priests to embrace this more sidereal approach to the Void.

[Raetary]

Its kind of criminal there's never been an alternative visual for shadowform considering priests are stuck with it. I always hoped there would be a more bluish tint like that concept art of the Void or maybe something with white tones mixed in, like the Sha.

Maybe if we ever get MT 2.0 its something they can consider.

Ye, even the tiniest bit of customization shadow did get (Glyph of Shadow ravens), they ended up removing instead of repurposing.

A Sha, Shadowflame, Cosmic form would be sweet.
Or even a more heavy red toned one to go with the Black Empire aesthetic.

[Khaza-R]

If 11.0 is a Void vs Light expansion after all, I wonder if they would give the Light a vfx update as well.

Perhaps softer, less yellow visuals that don't fatigue the eyes. As an added bonus maybe it could be worked in with expanding paladins to other races.

[Cheezits]

It's just insane.
These effects are some of the most beautiful in the whole game.
I would see a new class on the theme of Cosmic Void (nothing to do with shadow priests).
I went to see what he did and this gentleman is doing excellent quality work. Congratulations to him.

He clarified that all these spells are in the game, but that the development team uses them according to their need.
The integration of a new identity to the Void is largely explicit evidence that the Void will be involved in some way in the next expansion on Avaloren.

I'm just realizing some of the words used here... FAILED potential is interesting, as is Jazz. Jazz would make a lot of sense as a music form attached to Void (due to all the improvisation) but AFAIK that hasn't happened before.

- - - Updated - - -

If 11.0 is a Void vs Light expansion after all, I wonder if they would give the Light a vfx update as well.

Perhaps softer, less yellow visuals that don't fatigue the eyes. As an added bonus maybe it could be worked in with expanding paladins to other races.

I think part of it will definitely be making the Light both hues of yellow and white light. Maybe a final confirmation that Elune's astral magic is a branch of the Light.

[huth]

You're calling it vague guesses in regards to the Dream though, and it's just...not that. We DO have an understanding. The only assumption stands in regards to what it fully means in regards to the Titans and their utilization of the Dream. Hell, what part of the Dream have we explored so far? Has it just been the Titan influenced, Azeroth attuned dream? Or have we explored the Dream beyond that, but we just haven't much of it fully yet? Idk.

We only saw a small fraction of the Titan influenced Dream. We do not have a significant understanding of it at all, and i'm not sure where you even get the idea that we would. We barely even scratched the surface.

I'm not sure where you're getting the connection to Elune, either. There's no buildup to that whatsoever, especially in SL and DF. The tree is in the Dream because it is the most Life attuned place reachable from Azeroth, not because it has anything at all to do with Elune.


The Zereths don't seem to serve any other purpose than generatic the Cosmic realms, from what we've seen so far, so no, they aren't. You attributing random stuff to them does not make it so. They are very advanced and large scale automated factories, but they aren't anything beyond that.

You're not using a term purely out of emotional reasons, even though all that does is confuse the discussion. That's not a valid grounds. You're also injecting far to much of your headcanon into the discussion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

11.0 about Titan stuff...MORE TITANS

[Kiivar86]

Also saw this post from an artist. They really are retooling the concept of the Void to make sure it's distinct from the Black Empire.

https://twitter.com/ez_wizard/status...xvHZHFljvN8ivg

Ooh. I've always liked the void and all but honestly really hated the general Old God aesthetic (aside from a few specific things like most of Xal'atath's appearances). So have them more separate now is nice.

[Khaza-R]

Light and Void being 11.0 is too early imo.

I can understand your feeling but I don't think that's the case. I seem to remember before Shadowlands someone asked Ion in an interview if it was the last WoW expansion. He said no, they had at least 3 more expansions planned. To me with Shadowlands being the intro to the cosmic arc it signaled that it was meant to be concluded within 4 expansions. Likely one for each opposing force and finale for the hypothetical 7th force.

Of course this was years ago at this point and plans change, but I still don't we are far off from the void vs light conflict. They sort of wrote themselves into a corner going into this and there's not many avenues to explore otherwise unless Dragonflight goes a completely different direction by its end.

Ooh. I've always liked the void and all but honestly really hated the general Old God aesthetic (aside from a few specific things like most of Xal'atath's appearances). So have them more separate now is nice.

I am hoping, although its terribly unlikely, that they give shadow priests an option to avoid the Old God aesthetics if they choose. It was never part of the original class fantasy and feels forced upon the spec. I would love if it the spec goes back into a more generic state where its up to the players to decide if they are a soul priest, or a mad cultist or a void worshipper.