Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Viridiel]

I'm still begging for cross-region achievements, mounts etc., I guess it would also need the functionality to merge accounts since accounts are region-specific. I can't be the only one who's changed regions a couple times and doesn't want to farm mounts again.

I convinced myself years ago that it'll never happen because of the technological barriers, but it was mentioned in the Q&A for warbands so I have hope that they're at least trying to make it work.

[Lahis]

Accountwide gold would literally kill BMAH participation for any but a few whales, making it even worse than it's currently.

Wasn't account wide gold already part of the plan via the warband bank?

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Accountwide gold would literally kill BMAH participation for any but a few whales, making it even worse than it's currently.

Wasn't account wide gold already part of the plan via the warband bank?

Edit: It wasn't as seamless as I remembered (instant Accountwide access to all gold) but seems like you can deposit and withdraw gold from Warband Bank like you do with Guild Banks.



Or the gold part of the UI is just leftover from Guild Bank UI they have repurposed for this mock up.

[doledippers]

Crazy theories like "The Titans/Eonar are bad!" were considered wild, illogical, and pushed to the fringe of the speculation world.

true there wasnt a constellar in Wrath that never directly brought up the concept of the titans being bad

edit; and surely chris metzen isn't in support of the idea that the titans are bad right? because he literally went on the blizzcon stage and announced the world soul saga which involves a conspiracy that will make us question everything we think we know about the titans and their motives for Azeroth

[Vakir]

edit; and surely chris metzen isn't in support of the idea that the titans are bad right? because he literally went on the blizzcon stage and announced the world soul saga which involves a conspiracy that will make us question everything we think we know about the titans and their motives for Azeroth

The Last Titan accompanying the return of the Titans after the big Void war at Quel'Thalas is also surely a great sign for their future and in no way a potential villain bat flag.

Sadly, you're talking with a fringe person who now has added a political axe to grind to their bizarre rants for the cane-shaking at generations. As if Chris Metzen wasn't just a sprite artist for a DC game who just started throwing around story ideas later. Apparently to them he's a classically trained master of the craft.

I'll say it again, this is all gonna culminate with the idea that all extraneous cosmic forces have tried to leave their mark on Azeroth and instead she will be left a blank slate for us to be a part of the post-awakening next 20 years, as a meta jerking off of us the players.

[doledippers]

Sadly, you're talking with a fringe person who now has added a political axe to grind to their bizarre rants for the cane-shaking at generations. As if Chris Metzen wasn't just a sprite artist for a DC game who just started throwing around story ideas later. Apparently to them he's a classically trained master of the craft.

yeah and im not even trying to say that chris metzen sucks or anything, its just so odd that people utterly deify him and are assigning motives to him that aren't even representative of the plainly stated reality by his work and metzen himself

[Woggmer]

yeah and im not even trying to say that chris metzen sucks or anything, its just so odd that people utterly deify him and are assigning motives to him that aren't even representative of the plainly stated reality by his work and metzen himself

It's the equivalent of people saying Star Wars should go back to George Lucas after how badly the new movies came that weren't under his direction. And I know people have their own criticisms of how Metzen does story and worldbuilding, but it is a clear indication of how bad things have gotten in WoW if people are cheering for his return and set things straight.

Whether you agree or disagree with decisions is one thing, but people are hoping for a big dramatic shift in story and tone compared to all the other expansions we've had after his departure. That's really all the want out of this.

[Varodoc]

true there wasnt a constellar in Wrath that never directly brought up the concept of the titans being bad

edit; and surely chris metzen isn't in support of the idea that the titans are bad right? because he literally went on the blizzcon stage and announced the world soul saga which involves a conspiracy that will make us question everything we think we know about the titans and their motives for Azeroth

The Constellar in Wrath changed his mind almost immediately. Also, it was a final solution required in case Yogg-Saron got out of hand and took over the planet. Once the players proved to the Constellar that they could defend the planet, the Constellar acknowledged his mistakes and placed his faith in the players (echoing Medivh's final words at the end of the Third War, the peak of Metzen's masterpiece).

And, by the way, said Constellar fight happened right after the Titan Keepers empowered the players and allowed them to defeat Yogg-Saron and save the planet.

As for the Worldsoul saga, I suspect that Danuser and his New gen. team strong-armed Metzen into going along with this nonsense about Evil Titans.

From Metzen's perspective, the Titans are noble defenders of Creator, as the Chronicles (Almighty Objective Compendium, from Metzen's perspective) stated. Do you not see the discrepancy between Metzen and this New. Gen's perspectives on the Titans?

Do you seriously think that Metzen wanted the Chronicles to point at the Titans being dictators who use propaganda? Chronicles, which were supposed to be an Objective Almighty compendium when Metzen crafted them?

[doledippers]

The Constellar in Wrath changed his mind almost immediately. Also, it was a final solution required in case Yogg-Saron got out of hand and took over the planet. Once the players proved to the Constellar that they could defend the planet, the Constellar acknowledged his mistakes and placed his faith in the players (echoing Medivh's final words at the end of the Third War, the peak of Metzen's masterpiece).

And, by the way, said Constellar fight happened right after the Titan Keepers empowered the players and allowed them to defeat Yogg-Saron and save the planet.

As for the Worldsoul saga, I suspect that Danuser and his New gen. team strong-armed Metzen into going along with this nonsense about Evil Titans.

From Metzen's perspective, the Titans are noble defenders of Creator, as the Chronicles (Almighty Objective Compendium, from Metzen's perspective) stated. Do you not see the discrepancy between Metzen and this New. Gen's perspectives on the Titans?

Do you seriously think that Metzen wanted the Chronicles to point at the Titans being dictators who use propaganda? Chronicles, which were supposed to be an Objective Almighty compendium when Metzen crafted them?

its not necessarily that the titans are evil, its that their plans and ultimate goals disregard life on the planet, that much is plainly obvious and has been throughout warcraft. Also, word on the street is that Danuser is no longer at the company, so your little conspiracy about Danuser "strong arming" metzen is little more than tinfoil, frankly. It's canon, and very old canon i might add, that the Titans have eradicated life on uncountable planets to serve their own goals, if that isn't at least morally dubious to you then im not sure what to tell you.

At this point you are just deifying metzen and are creating literal conspiracy theories about how Metzen is being strong armed into creating work he doesn't agree with because it doesn't align with your own idea of what he SHOULD be making. It's a little crazy man, im just saying

[Nymrohd]

Lol, there is no evidence that Danuser is not with the company . . .
They just realized the man has no charisma so they are not using him to present things.

[Varodoc]

its not necessarily that the titans are evil, its that their plans and ultimate goals disregard life on the planet, that much is plainly obvious and has been throughout warcraft. Also, word on the street is that Danuser is no longer at the company, so your little conspiracy about Danuser "strong arming" metzen is little more than tinfoil, frankly. It's canon, and very old canon i might add, that the Titans have eradicated life on uncountable planets to serve their own goals, if that isn't at least morally dubious to you then im not sure what to tell you.

At this point you are just deifying metzen and are creating literal conspiracy theories about how Metzen is being strong armed into creating work he doesn't agree with because it doesn't align with your own idea of what he SHOULD be making. It's a little crazy man, im just saying

There was no "grand conspiracy" in the old lore, or even just in the previous decade.

The matter was simple: Titans Always Good, unless mortals get corrupted, then they wiped them out. The End.

Everything was clear, plain, and made evident for all to see. There was no mystery or secrecy.

All this weird stuff about Titans "imprisoning Azeroth" or "force-injecting Order juice into the World-Soul to control it" (even though Metzen stated that the World-Soul was a Titan in Chronicles...) is New Gen. Lore.

The point is not that the Titans are morally grey, but that things are being overcomplicated by this New Gen. with this whole "grand conspiracy" nonsense. The Titans were not complicated in Metzen's lore. There was no "grand conspiracy" involving the Titans back then.

You're going to say that the Titans force-injecting Order juice into the World-Soul to turn it into Order was planned 8 years ago when Chronicles were released? (the Chronicles that stated the World-Soul was already a Titan)

[doledippers]

There was no "grand conspiracy" in the old lore, or even just in the previous decade.
The matter was simple: Titans Always Good, unless mortals get corrupted, then they wiped them out. The End.

i mean... i really didn't want to have to go here but your lack of ability to see that the titans were always presented to be morally dubious doesn't mean it isnt true. And in fact thinking such does a disservice to the writers by acting as if they created 1 dimensional characters like you say they did. I genuinely don't even know where to go with this conversation because you can't even see what was PLAINLY laid out by the guy you deify.

"I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers flames, their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart devoid of emotion… of empathy. I. Have. Felt. Nothing. A million-million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?" -the creation of an unequivocal force of good

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You're going to say that the Titans force-injecting Order juice into the World-Soul to turn it into Order was planned 8 years ago when Chronicles were released? (the Chronicles that stated the World-Soul was already a Titan)

thats not what i said, but yes thats what happens when you leave characters open to interpretation and leave their motives in a gray area. You can't do anything interesting with solidly 1 dimensional characters

[Varodoc]

i mean... i really didn't want to have to go here but your lack of ability to see that the titans were always presented to be morally dubious doesn't mean it isnt true. And in fact thinking such does a disservice to the writers by acting as if they created 1 dimensional characters like you say they did.

And there's the problem with the New generations of writers. They think that every character must be 3-dimensional, as if a one-dimensional character can't be good. Even though this is easily disproven by villains like Gul'dan and Kel'Thuzad.

The Titans were simple in the old lore. Nothing about them was hard or difficult to understand.

I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers flames, their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart devoid of emotion… of empathy. I. Have. Felt. Nothing. A million-million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?" -the creation of an unequivocal force of good

Yes, CORRUPTED WORLDS that would have posed a THREAT TO THE OVERALL CREATION.

They weren't destroying those planets for fun or to subjugate everything. There was no grand conspiracy involved. They were destroyed because they were corrupted and the Titans (being the defenders of the Cosmos, Metzen's Chronicles) had to deal with them, the End. Simple story.

By the way, the Protoss from Starcraft (another great work made by Metzen) also "purify" corrupted worlds, like the Titans do. Are the Protoss presented as the final villains/big bad guys? Is there some secret, grand conspiracy of the Protoss? No, they just destroy worlds if they get corrupted by evil forces. It's simple. It's evident. There's no mystery or secrecy involved.

https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Glassing?so=search

This is why the New gen. of Writers across all media fail compared to the Old ones. They think that everything must be shades of grey, multi-complex, and multi-layered. They forget the simple stories, the "one-dimensional" stories, if you will; which are the most successful ones.

[doledippers]

And there's the problem with the New generations of writers. They think that every character must be 3-dimensional, as if a one-dimensional character can't be good. Even though this is easily disproven by villains like Gul'dan and Kel'Thuzad.

fyrakk is pretty one dimensional, and his character was good for what it was. Also ive never played starcraft so i cant comment on that.

As for the corrupted worlds, you literally have no way of knowing that, it was never stated, because they wanted to LEAVE IT OPEN AND AMBIGUOUS LMAO. we're literally just talking past eachother at this point because you can't understand this beyond a juvenile surface level GOOD / BAD binary

[Varodoc]

fyrakk is pretty one dimensional, and his character was good for what it was. Also ive never played starcraft so i cant comment on that.

As for the corrupted worlds, you literally have no way of knowing that, it was never stated, because they wanted to LEAVE IT OPEN AND AMBIGUOUS LMAO. we're literally just talking past eachother at this point because you can't understand this beyond a juvenile surface level GOOD / BAD binary

The Titans love and cherish Life and Nature. They created the Emerald Dream, after all (Metzen's Chronicles).

Why they would destroy worlds for any reason other than corruption? They're not Demons, they don't want to destroy for fun. In fact, they cherish Nature and try to create hospitable environment where mortal civilizations rise, flourish, and evolve.

Good / Bad Binaries make for the most successful stories. It has been proven that the most well-received expansions in WoW are those who don't attempt to make it any more complicated than "This guy is Bad, kill him".

Good / Bad Binary is the storyline of MoP and Legion, the most well-received expansions of the previous decade.

But we live in an age where people need 3000 layers of shades and plans or they're not satisfied.

[Merryck]

The chronicles literally used the word "benevolent" and states that the Titan's mission is to protect life across the universe. Chris Metzen obviously intended for the Titans to be the good guys post-Chronicles, until Danuser and his team trampled on his lore with subpar storytelling and retcons.

[Ersula]

The chronicles literally used the word "benevolent" and states that the Titan's mission is to protect life across the universe. Chris Metzen obviously intended for the Titans to be the good guys post-Chronicles, until Danuser and his team trampled on his lore with subpar storytelling and retcons.

You're surprised the Titans used the word benevolent to describe themselves? Metzen still worked at Blizzard when the "Chronicles is just the Titan's narrative" was originally revealed. Even right now I don't think we're supposed to think the Titans are evil. It's just subjective.

[Merryck]

The Titans love and cherish Life and Nature. They created the Emerald Dream, after all (Metzen's Chronicles).

Why they would destroy worlds for any reason other than corruption? They're not Demons, they don't want to destroy for fun. In fact, they cherish Nature and try to create hospitable environment where mortal civilizations rise, flourish, and evolve.

Good / Bad Binaries make for the most successful stories. It has been proven that the most well-received expansions in WoW are those who don't attempt to make it any more complicated than "This guy is Bad, kill him".

Good / Bad Binary is the storyline of MoP and Legion, the most well-received expansions of the previous decade.

But we live in an age where people need 3000 layers of shades and plans or they're not satisfied.

You're right, and the reason "binary storytelling" is more well-received is because the game simply isn't built for anything more complex.

[Varodoc]

Metzen still worked at Blizzard when the "Chronicles is just the Titan's narrative" was originally revealed.

This is factually wrong.

Metzen retired in September 2016. Danuser claimed that the Chronicles are from the Titans' perspective at Blizzcon 2019, by which point Metzen had already been gone for over 3 years (only going to Blizzard sporadically to voice Thrall for BfA and SL, not to give writer input).

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Chris_Metzen

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/World_...aft:_Chronicle

So No, when Danuser retconned the Chronicles, Metzen was not working at Blizzard as a writer at all.

[Merryck]

You're surprised the Titans used the word benevolent to describe themselves? Metzen still worked at Blizzard when the "Chronicles is just the Titan's narrative" was originally revealed. Even right now I don't think we're supposed to think the Titans are evil. It's just subjective.

Please watch this video and tell me if you truly believe that Chronicles was written and sold to us as being from the Titans' perspective.

Chris Metzen states that Chronicles was intended to "codify, tighten up and clarify the history of Warcraft" not leave it more vague and biased from an in-universe perspective ...

[Nebron]

Please watch this video and tell me if you truly believe that Chronicles was written and sold to us as being from the Titans' perspective.

Chris Metzen states that Chronicles was intended to "codify, tighten up and clarify the history of Warcraft" not leave it more vague and biased from an in-universe perspective ...

Lol, what is this debate even about? There's nothing to prove whatsoever.
The original intention for Chronicles is clear and obvious beyond any doubt for any rational person. The whole point of these "Chronicles" series was literally to encapsulate all the lore bits within something like a "Warcraft Bible" that would serve as a single source of truth, perhaps retconing a thing or two in the process for the sake of clarity and solidifying its validity in a long-term.
All the claims about it's subjective context that came later on served as a mechanism to justify inconsistencies and incompetence in creating a cohesive, well-structured and balanced story setting.
You don't even need Mentzen interviewes to understand this f-ing concept. Even if he personally changed his mind a posteriori, the whole book was sold with that intention in the first place. The information about it's "subjective POV" was nowhere to be seen at the time of it's release.

It boggles my mind how far can people go to twist such simple ideas and logic into an absolute garbage arguments. Prove this, prove that. Jesus.