Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Super Dickmann]

By the way, the Protoss from Starcraft (another great work made by Metzen) also "purify" corrupted worlds, like the Titans do. Are the Protoss presented as the final villains/big bad guys? Is there some secret, grand conspiracy of the Protoss? No, they just destroy worlds if they get corrupted by evil forces. It's simple. It's evident. There's no mystery or secrecy involved.

I rescind what I said before, this Metzen cockpolisher route is the right one for you and you'll get a lot of (You)s in the coming years as you explain how Metzen was tied down and forced to do things he's done for years by the writer's room at gunpoint. Which part of the Protoss story do you mean? Is it the bit where the guys glassing worlds, the Conclave, lead the PC to failure in the first three missions and where the main hero character, Tassadar, is such because he rejects doing so? Is it where they're the antagonists you kill in the third and second to last missions of the OG Starcraft or where they get tricked by the antagonist in Brood War and you have to off them too? Maybe it's the part of SC2 where the correct route to world nuking is to refuse Selendis and fight her, trusting the natives opposing them to do best and earning the best outcome. Trick question really, it's none of them, as the Xel'naga are the Titan stand-in, and the Metzen-penned SC2 story hinges on the Protoss rejecting them and going their own route, which will be the exact plot that'll be recycled (plus violence) in the next expansions, much like SC1 was recycled into WC3 and WC3 was recycled into SC2.

[Varodoc]

I rescind what I said before, this Metzen cockpolisher route is the right one for you and you'll get a lot of (You)s in the coming years as you explain how Metzen was tied down and forced to do things he's done for years by the writer's room at gunpoint. Which part of the Protoss story do you mean? Is it the bit where the guys glassing worlds, the Conclave, lead the PC to failure in the first three missions and where the main hero character, Tassadar, is such because he rejects doing so? Is it where they're the antagonists you kill in the third and second to last missions of the OG Starcraft or where they get tricked by the antagonist in Brood War and you have to off them too? Maybe it's the part of SC2 where the correct route to world nuking is to refuse Selendis and fight her, trusting the natives opposing them to do best and earning the best outcome. Trick question really, it's none of them, as the Xel'naga are the Titan stand-in, and the Metzen-penned SC2 story hinges on the Protoss rejecting them and going their own route, which will be the exact plot that'll be recycled (plus violence) in the next expansions, much like SC1 was recycled into WC3 and WC3 was recycled into SC2.

You missed when Good Guy Purifiers glassed a world in LOTV:

After Hierarch Artanis activated the Purifiers in Cybros, Executor Clolarion activated the purifier cannon on the warship, and purified the surface of Endion of all life, removing the threat of Amon's brood.

You forgot when Good Guy Artanis was about to do the same in the novel:

Overqueen Zagara set about regrowing worlds previously destroyed by protoss purification using the adostra. The first of these worlds was Gystt. During the One-Day War Hierarch Artanis was in favor of purifying Gystt due to the zerg presence on the planet, albeit he agreed to delay the operation, swayed by Emperor Valerian Mengsk, who argued against the decision as it would shatter the fragile peace with the Swarm. During the war, most of Artanis' ships, including a mothership, several carriers and void rays had their weapons prepared to initiate the purification. Ultimately, after the investigation regarding the zerg attacks was conclusive and the final resolution of the war, the procedure was called off.

And you forgot that pretty much no one, not even Raynor, cared about that time Selendis tried to wipe out all the human colonists and glass their planet.


How come the Protoss can glass planets and get away with and still be the Good guys, but the Titans can't do the same? Answer this simple and straightforward question.

And I have always loved the version of Warcraft Lore as envisioned by Metzen, its Creator. That's why you see Me supporting the Alliance High Elves; as, in Metzen's Original vision (without the MMO Team's meddling), the High Elves were a founding member of the Alliance of Lordaeron. That's why you see Me supporting Calia Menethil; as, in Metzen's Original vision (without the MMO Team's meddling), the Forsaken were NOT badass, they were sad plagued victims.

I consider myself a very impartial individual, I give credit where credit is due. I will congratulate Danuser and his team on their handling of the Forsaken in the last 5 years.

The Forsaken are NOT meant to be badass in Metzen's Original vision. That's the Scourge. At long last, with Calia Menethil, the Forsaken can return to their true roots, before the meddlesome MMO team turned them into Scourge 2.0 (Aka Badass Undead, which they are NOT) without Metzen's approval.

Expect to see much more from Calia in the Worldsoul saga. At long last, the WoW Forsaken align with Metzen's original vision, with the Pallid Lady. It only took about 20 years of WoW, but we're finally there.

[Paulissimo]

You missed when Good Guy Purifiers glassed a world in LOTV:


How come the Protoss can glass planets and get away with and still be the Good guys, but the Titans can't do the same? Answer this simple and straightforward question.

We live on the planet.

[Varodoc]

We live on the planet.

So you are saying that it would be fine if the Titans glassed a world like Argus (to contain Fel corruption) or WC1-WC2 Draenor (to contain Fel corruption)?

[Xilurm]

So you are saying that it would be fine if the Titans glassed a world like Argus (to contain Fel corruption) or WC1-WC2 Draenor (to contain Fel corruption)?

People just like characters that are shown as empathetic and likeable or tragic regardless of what they've done.

Take Arthas for example. What he did in WC3 was evil. But he is a tragic character because he is written that way. He is presented that way. Is Azshara evil? Yes. Is Denathrius? Absolutely. But they are charming and written in a way that makes them likeable. The majority aren't going to complain that they have done bad things. Some forum people might, but they are preaching to the choir lol.

When it comes to the Titans we aren't actually seeing them do nothing personally. We are just told things. The Protoss are a playable faction in SC and we look at things from their perspective.

In WC3 while playing as the Scourge faction they made it seem like everyone else was a douchebag while fighting them.

[Super Dickmann]

How come the Protoss can glass planets and get away with and still be the Good guys, but the Titans can't do the same? Answer this simple and straightforward question.

They don't, the hero designated by Metzen (pbuh) in that campaign, Tassadar, is the hero because he refuses to glass inhabited worlds indiscriminately. The only one who tries to glass a world that's not 100% doomed in the expansion, Selendis, is shown to be wrong because the random doctor you pick up can somehow cure Zerg infestation. Much like how Algalon talks about how a million-million lives were wasted, e.g. that killing all those people was wrong.

The quality of these plotbeats aside, that's how these stories are written. The Conclave and Algalon aren't the main bad guys, but they're episodic antagonists that need to be convinced (via violence) to first stop indiscriminately killing people and then to abandon their positions (the Khala and the Titans' world micromanagement respectively) before they can team up with us to fight the bad guy as part of the bland coalition. Much like Algalon in Wrath or Tyr at the end of this one, the Titans will go "Wow, you sure showed us for not trusting you to handle it, heroes." Blizzard franchises are a lot like Star Wars, they're like poetry, they rhyme.

Also, that Forsaken pivot was a stretch, you should've gone for the orc angle and how with Metzen back they're back on track for his revolutionary original vision of turning them into good guys and then vanishing so the plot can be about (night) elves instead, I mean come on, Green Jesus is a main character in the next expansion, it was an open goal.

[Cheezits]

Speculation? Future content?

[doledippers]

Speculation? Future content?

instance of thread getting derailed by unhinged loreheads #297

[Cheezits]

instance of thread getting derailed by unhinged loreheads #297

Okay I'll do some actual speculation.

With Cairne ghost and Baine in the files, and the unreleased Bakaar mount, there will probably be a Windrunner Village questline in 10.2.6. Or a timegated mount quest at the very least.

There's also an unreleased Dracthyr outfit as well as a lingering plot thread: there's a book that Wrathion gives you in 10.1 that can't be translated at the moment. It says only someone old can do it, so it's probably Adamanthia, who disappeared after 10.1.5.

Also Ebonhorn is strangely quiet in 10.2.5 so he probably has some kind of follow up with her.

[Ersula]

None of these factors make the Titans bad or anything.

You're right. It does make them liars, but like I said before, I don't think they actually want the Titans to be bad, just establish why some characters might see them as bad. You know, create rounded villains, etc.

[Sondrelk]

Titan perspective in Chronicles aside, I think people are vastly overstating how definitive the book actually was. Even assuming everything in it is fully correct and never subject to rett ns it still doesn't explain everything.
What is the deal with the Broken Shore for instance?
Is there a backside to Azeroth? Did the Old Gods attempt to colonize it? Did they succeed?
Did the Old Gods have a long term plan beyond "corrupt Azeroth"? Did the Titans have a long term plan beyond find more Titans? What about the Titan keepers?
What is the history of the Old Gods Odyn alludes to? Chronicles pretty confidently skips past all of it with a "and then they built more ziggurats and obelisks". Was there social tensions between factions of Aqir?

All of these questions were never answered in Chronicles. And the authors perspective doesn't have any impact on it. The only major retcon I can think of that has occured with Chronicles is that Azeroth is seemingly not actually a Titan. But even that could be explained by saying the Titans are all First Ones or whatever, and who are then turned into the Titans we know through some process.

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You're right. It does make them liars, but like I said before, I don't think they actually want the Titans to be bad, just establish why some characters might see them as bad. You know, create rounded villains, etc.

The Titans being "bad" would require them to have an understandable morality, and nothing we have seen from them implies that so far. They always seemed more preoccupied with the planet as a whole, rather than individual entities on it. Even as far back as WotLK this was made abundantly clear when Algalon talks about how callously they purge planets at the first sign of corruption.

[Varodoc]

Titan perspective in Chronicles aside, I think people are vastly overstating how definitive the book actually was. Even assuming everything in it is fully correct and never subject to rett ns it still doesn't explain everything.
What is the deal with the Broken Shore for instance?
Is there a backside to Azeroth? Did the Old Gods attempt to colonize it? Did they succeed?
Did the Old Gods have a long term plan beyond "corrupt Azeroth"? Did the Titans have a long term plan beyond find more Titans? What about the Titan keepers?
What is the history of the Old Gods Odyn alludes to? Chronicles pretty confidently skips past all of it with a "and then they built more ziggurats and obelisks". Was there social tensions between factions of Aqir?

Ah Yes, because it was reasonable to expect a book to answer every imaginable lore question about the setting. The Creators of Chronicles already said that Chronicles was only focusing on the major events and to refer to pre-existing texts for things that weren't covered.

The Chronicles had to deal with literally the entire history from the beginning of the Cosmos to the end of Cataclysm, surely you weren't expect them to waste a page on Broken Shore? It wasn't necessary, we already knew from the contemporary Legion expansion that the Broken Shore used to be an Elven area known as "Thal'dranath", and an even more ancient site of a battle between N'Zoth and Y'Shaarj.

Yet why don't we focus on how the Chronicles fleshed-out the ancient times of Azeroth and the Cosmos, with beautiful artworks that finally gave an insight into the ancient civilizations of Azeroth and are still being used to this day for reference? I mean, Metzen literally pulled out the Black Empire artwork from Chronicles at Blizzcon:






Your post seems like historical revisionism, an attempt to diminish the importance of the Chronicles. The books at the time were the definitive source for the world-building and general lore of the setting.

We saw it with BfA, which was being produced during Chronicles Era. Dazar'alor and Atal'Dazar were clearly modelled after the Zuldazar art from Chronicles:

[Varodoc]

You do realize Danuser most likely asked Metzen about Chronicle's value before saying what he said, yeah? I highly doubt he alone would make such a decision himself.

I am not interested in baseless conjecture.

[Varodoc]

It's not baseless conjecture. Danuser would not "retcon" something as big as Chronicle in that way without the permission of the ones responsible. That part is NOT up to him. Quick reminder that Chronicle is still relevant, even to this day. It being from Order's perspective cosmic-wise doesn't make it wrong. Hell, the depictions of the Black Empire aren't even wrong, just painted in a biased light.

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Chronicle codified and clarified much of the lore, that's what it did. It ALSO gave us a first look into the greater powers of WoW however, while also exaggerating Light and Void's clash (Which IS canon, as I have stated many times over) to somewhat limit just how big the scope of the greater Cosmology was. Shadowlands was our first peak into said deeper Cosmology that the Chronicle first established. However, idk if Chronicle will or will not talk about the Progenitors, and if it does, then it'll either finally talk about the deeper Cosmology in a more truthful manner, or it'll lowball the Progenitors to hide the truth about them (I.E them being the creators of the Shadowlands only or whatever, which I can see, but idk).

The only fact is that there is a 3 year gap between Metzen's retirement and Chronicles' retcon.

Anything else is baseless speculation.

Maybe now you are starting to realize why Danuser is such a controversial writer?

[doledippers]

I am not interested in baseless conjecture.

right ...
/10char

As for the Worldsoul saga, I suspect that Danuser and his New gen. team strong-armed Metzen into going along with this nonsense about Evil Titans.

[Varodoc]

You act like Metzen didn't bullet point basic stuff on SL before leaving. He probably did that and worked on the BFA cinematic before leaving. Anything internal regarding Blizzard was outside of his knowledge however.

Is it speculative? Yes. Is it believable? Yes.

No, it's not believable at all. I regularly frequent much more popular Warcraft socials like the Official forums, Official subreddit, and X, and I have literally never seen anyone else genuinely believe that funny stuff like the First Ones or the Jailer was penned all the way back in 2016, by Metzen nonetheless.

Funny how the Jailer or the Maw were apparently planned all the way back in 2016, and yet we are given direct insight into Sylvanas' thought during the War of Thorns in 2018 and she doesn't mention them once.

[Civciv]

Rule 1: Never argue with V*rodoc and T*riz.

On topic, I'm excited to see Muehzela and Bwonsamdi back, hopefully we'll see Vol'jin as loa too.

[Civciv]

I'll discuss things with whoever, thanks. Also, why censor parts of their names?

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But yeah, seeing Mueh'zala and Bwonsamdi again is cool ngl. Hopefully the heritage questline is worth it.

wasn't talking to you clearly, but you do you.

[Enteroctopus Magnificus]

I need help please. I need a source.

I thought I saw some info a while ago that Blizzard or a dev said they didn't have any specific rules about allied races, other than that it's a sub-race system. Anyone know if this is true and where this info came from?

[Schwert]

I'll discuss things with whoever, thanks. Also, why censor parts of their names?

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But yeah, seeing Mueh'zala and Bwonsamdi again is cool ngl. Hopefully the heritage questline is worth it.

Moment people start censoring things randomly and it has nothing to do with algorithms and losing income, I just assume it's not worth it.