Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[milkmustache]

Agreed, in fact, I recall the reason they pushed the N'zoth plot in BFA was because they couldn't do an Old God theme expansion and had to end N'zoth's story in the span of a single patch. At least with Shadowlands it had a bunch of excuses as to why they scrapped the B plot.

But DF on the other hand, it feels like they swapped the A and B plots around, where Amirdrassil should've been the B plot while Dawn of the Infinites should've been the A plot that it was all leading up to. To me it sounds like they heard about the responses of players wanting a story involving the Infinites and another story of Emerald Dream, but they couldn't fit them in as expansions so they made them into patch content just like with N'zoth.

Insane how the pacing would have felt so much better had Fyrakk and Amirdrassil been a megadungeon and Dawn of the Infinites been the final raid. Dracthyr and Black Dragonflight story stays the same, wrapped up with Sarkareth in Aberrus, but we then immediately deal with Fyrakk in Amirdrassil as he is Iridikron's distraction and we just saw him bathe in shadowflame for an entire patch. It would have sacrificed using the Emerald Dream as a zone (which is probably a large part of why it happened in the order it did), but then allows Dawn of the Infinites to become a full scale raid, possibly with a Murozond end boss and same situation where we avoid Murozond becoming full reality, while unfortunately allowing Iridikron to gain the essence of Galakrond, he escapes with Xal, we move forward into epilogues and prepatches.

I feel almost certain that Dragonflight's story was massively changed earlier on in development, which is why 10.0 and 10.1 feel massively different from everything following.

[Sondrelk]

Insane how the pacing would have felt so much better had Fyrakk and Amirdrassil been a megadungeon and Dawn of the Infinites been the final raid. Dracthyr and Black Dragonflight story stays the same, wrapped up with Sarkareth in Aberrus, but we then immediately deal with Fyrakk in Amirdrassil as he is Iridikron's distraction and we just saw him bathe in shadowflame for an entire patch. It would have sacrificed using the Emerald Dream as a zone (which is probably a large part of why it happened in the order it did), but then allows Dawn of the Infinites to become a full scale raid, possibly with a Murozond end boss and same situation where we avoid Murozond becoming full reality, while unfortunately allowing Iridikron to gain the essence of Galakrond, he escapes with Xal, we move forward into epilogues and prepatches.

I feel almost certain that Dragonflight's story was massively changed earlier on in development, which is why 10.0 and 10.1 feel massively different from everything following.

Fyrakk would have been difficult to do as a Megadungeon I think. Aberrus however would be ideal for a Megadungeon. Only reason I imagine they didnt is because it would be too similar to Neltharus.

Though honestly, I am not all that positive towards Dawn of the Infinite to begin with. Feels like a massive waste of time considering most of the bosses are set in the main Conflux area, rather than a multitude of bosses from all across time.

[Murlocos]

But DF on the other hand, it feels like they swapped the A and B plots around, where Amirdrassil should've been the B plot while Dawn of the Infinites should've been the A plot that it was all leading up to. To me it sounds like they heard about the responses of players wanting a story involving the Infinites and another story of Emerald Dream, but they couldn't fit them in as expansions so they made them into patch content just like with N'zoth.

Yeah, the impression I get is that they couldn't decide whether they wanted into do full deep dives into the identity of each flight or if they wanted a story about the Incarnates, and what we ended up getting was kind of both and kind of neither. Like how the red flight doesn't have any real post-launch story to itself, how Vyranoth doesn't do anything or even show up in-game outside of a cutscene until 10.1.5, etc.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the blue story is maybe the most universally well received one this expansion and it's one that only came in two clean chunks, 10.0 and 10.2. It's coherent because it came out in a timely fashion and wasn't split across patch after patch with obvious rewrites or ideas going nowhere mid-story.

Insane how the pacing would have felt so much better had Fyrakk and Amirdrassil been a megadungeon and Dawn of the Infinites been the final raid. Dracthyr and Black Dragonflight story stays the same, wrapped up with Sarkareth in Aberrus, but we then immediately deal with Fyrakk in Amirdrassil as he is Iridikron's distraction and we just saw him bathe in shadowflame for an entire patch. It would have sacrificed using the Emerald Dream as a zone (which is probably a large part of why it happened in the order it did), but then allows Dawn of the Infinites to become a full scale raid, possibly with a Murozond end boss and same situation where we avoid Murozond becoming full reality, while unfortunately allowing Iridikron to gain the essence of Galakrond, he escapes with Xal, we move forward into epilogues and prepatches.

I feel almost certain that Dragonflight's story was massively changed earlier on in development, which is why 10.0 and 10.1 feel massively different from everything following.

I remember people talking about swapping Aberrus and DotI for the megadungeon and raid, but swapping DotI with Amirdrassil makes so much sense put like that. I think it's undeniable the story changed heavily (or just as likely, they didn't plan far ahead), and I'm not going to be quick to immediately blame the pivot to the Worldsoul Saga for that when this is just following the same trend we saw with SL and BfA.

[Woggmer]

Fyrakk would have been difficult to do as a Megadungeon I think. Aberrus however would be ideal for a Megadungeon. Only reason I imagine they didnt is because it would be too similar to Neltharus.

Though honestly, I am not all that positive towards Dawn of the Infinite to begin with. Feels like a massive waste of time considering most of the bosses are set in the main Conflux area, rather than a multitude of bosses from all across time.

For me, the original plan was that Fyrakk was supposed to be the final boss of Aberrus once he got infused with the Shadowflame, and was meant to be a distraction for us while Iridikron was busy. Vyranoth was supposed to be the next one where she would unleash an icy hell on Amirdrassil and freeze it over just like the Primalists tried to do in that one questline, which is what causes Ysera to come back.

There wouldn't be any Druids of the Flame, but instead the Emerald Dream is attacked by ice and hailstorms caused by Vyranoth. They still could've worked in the idea of making her a reformed bad guy when she realized that Iridikron has been using her, Fyrakk, and Raszageth as distractions to gain more power (unlike a certain Banshee Queen where all her actions were "because the Jailer told me to".)
Finally it ends with us chasing down Iridikron across different timelines, until we reached Galakrond where he absorbs the power from his corpse.

What really bothers me the most... In the Chronicles, there's a passage written about the Gnoll war that a group of adventurers along with reigning King at the time took down the Gnolls fortified in Redridge. And when you chase Chromie through the various timelines, you meet go through each of the different pasts like the Gnoll Wars, the Pandaren Revolution against the Mogu, and the War of the Sands. A similar style like with the Emerald Nightmare raid where it was non-linear and clearing up different timelines before reaching Iridikron.

That's just my interpretation of how it could've went... With Amirdrassil being the Megadungeon instead of Aberrus.
I don't know what Blizz is thinking, but ever since BFA they keep changing the story direction at the halfway point or at the last minute.

[Cheezits]

While DF has an unconventional story structure, I think the "distraction" patches are in part because they think one distinct themed story going on too long will bore players more than sporadic changes in aesthetic.

The only actual story change I personally believe may have happened is Tyr originally being angrier/antagonistic when he woke up, maybe because it was only a "version" of Tyr who took the Dragon independence at face value. But when Metzen said "make it the same Tyr"... why would OG Tyr attack his old friends?

This could still happen in TLT as a twist, of course.

[Woggmer]

Yeah, the impression I get is that they couldn't decide whether they wanted into do full deep dives into the identity of each flight or if they wanted a story about the Incarnates, and what we ended up getting was kind of both and kind of neither. Like how the red flight doesn't have any real post-launch story to itself, how Vyranoth doesn't do anything or even show up in-game outside of a cutscene until 10.1.5, etc.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the blue story is maybe the most universally well received one this expansion and it's one that only came in two clean chunks, 10.0 and 10.2. It's coherent because it came out in a timely fashion and wasn't split across patch after patch with obvious rewrites or ideas going nowhere mid-story.

It's also worth mentioning that they probably had plans to expand the primalists even further by even having Magatha Grimtotem involved in the story. (There's even an NPC model for her in DF's game files, so she was likely going to be involved including her disciple, Kurog.)

I think what might've happened is that they had DF planned out midway through BFA especially since it was heavily hinted at in the N'zoth patch, they must've been done with most of the baseline stuff (zone design, characters, models) and preparing for the story but then the lawsuits happened mid-SL it caused a huge shake-up that might've changed everything. They might've done a bit of restructuring, not just with the team but with the expansion itself too.

[Valysar]

I can't wait for DF to end, and I hope that TWW will be more mature and more interesting in terms of lore

[Varodoc]

I can't wait for DF to end, and I hope that TWW will be more mature and more interesting in terms of lore

That will depend on whether the New. Gen team finds the humility to swallow their misplaced pride and step aside to let Metzen cook.

As Metzen is fully capable of writing mature, nuanced, and interesting storylines that are still source of debate 20 years later:






But I'm not sure if morally grey and complex storylines like those will have a place in Danuser's Warcraft: the Avengers. It also remains to be seen how much freedom Metzen will be given, though he is credited as the spearhead of the Worldsoul saga.

[doledippers]

That will depend on whether the New. Gen team finds the humility to swallow their misplaced pride and step aside to let Metzen cook

remember guys, anything bad in TWW will be the NeW gEn and anything good will be cuz of metzen

[Woggmer]

I can't wait for DF to end, and I hope that TWW will be more mature and more interesting in terms of lore

The premise for it so far seems pretty mature than what DF had going with the zones having a good balance of of both fantasy (like Isle of Dorn) and dread (Azj'kahet) with Hallowfall being the middle ground. Whereas Shadowlands went full in on the dread and less in the fantasy (only in Bastion and Ardenweald) aspect while DF was the complete opposite and focused on the mystical and less so on the dread (aside from the Gnoll area in Azure Span, and Zaralek Caverns).

I would say the only thing I'd be worried for is how they'll handle the Earthen when we meet them, and also how they'll go about with the Arathi since they might be a big pivotal part of the whole expansion along with that giant crystal.

[Dracullus]

DF has very few classic warcraft themes and next expansion should have them more, but immature? I dare to say most comments shitting on DF how Disney it is are immature, it's very, very similar to calling MoP Kun Fu Panda expansion.

[Varodoc]

The premise for it so far seems pretty mature than what DF had going with the zones having a good balance of of both fantasy (like Isle of Dorn) and dread (Azj'kahet) with Hallowfall being the middle ground. Whereas Shadowlands went full in on the dread and less in the fantasy (only in Bastion and Ardenweald) aspect while DF was the complete opposite and focused on the mystical and less so on the dread (aside from the Gnoll area in Azure Span, and Zaralek Caverns).

I would say the only thing I'd be worried for is how they'll handle the Earthen when we meet them, and also how they'll go about with the Arathi since they might be a big pivotal part of the whole expansion along with that giant crystal.

Since it's an Underground expansion, it will automatically be more dread and dark than Dragonflight, though that is not a noteworthy accomplishment.

Nerubian are well-known monsters that the players take seriously (unlike Fyrakk), they will be depicted as a ravenous swarm.

I would also expect the Arathi zealots to be depicted in a gruesome way. Like the Scarlet Crusade and the Revedreth Naaru, they will likely torture their enemies with the Light, by scorching them.

That is the morally grey: torturing an evil Nerubian prisoner by scorching it with Light.

I will also expect Xal'atath to be sinister and frightening in nature, like the other Old Gods.

We might be looking at one of the most dreaded expansion settings we've ever had. An entire expansion set underground, with Nerubian monsters, an Old God on the loose, Black Blood of the Old Gods everywhere, and Human zealots.

Say goodbye to the Disney atmosphere of Azure Span, with friendly tuskarr and cuddly gnolls. From what little pictures we have now, we can already deduce that Hawllofall (when the crystal is Void-corrupted) and the Nerubian kingdom will be dark and dreaded places.

[milkmustache]

DF has very few classic warcraft themes and next expansion should have them more, but immature? I dare to say most comments shitting on DF how Disney it is are immature, it's very, very similar to calling MoP Kun Fu Panda expansion.

I mean, not really. MoP had a lot of lighter themes in the sense that the Pandaren and Hozen were relatively silly, but the core of it was a war landing upon it's shores and manifesting an evil upon the land.

DF, especially 10.2, kinda hits us over the head with poor dialogue and character writing, specifically in the finale of the 10.2 questline and the finale of Amirdrassil. There is just an absolute absense of dimension to them. The Aspects finish each other's sentences about family and friendship, all of the leaders of Azeroth are brought to fight Fyrakk's forces in a literal recreation of the famous Endgame scene.

I know the grass is always greener, but MoP is celebrated by a lot of people nowadays for it's story, and I think it's almost certain that Dragonflight won't get that treatment.

[Varodoc]

I mean, not really. MoP had a lot of lighter themes in the sense that the Pandaren and Hozen were relatively silly, but the core of it was a war landing upon it's shores and manifesting an evil upon the land.

DF, especially 10.2, kinda hits us over the head with poor dialogue and character writing, specifically in the finale of the 10.2 questline and the finale of Amirdrassil. There is just an absolute absense of dimension to them. The Aspects finish each other's sentences about family and friendship, all of the leaders of Azeroth are brought to fight Fyrakk's forces in a literal recreation of the famous Endgame scene.

I know the grass is always greener, but MoP is celebrated by a lot of people nowadays for it's story, and I think it's almost certain that Dragonflight won't get that treatment.

There should be an opposite of Nostalgia, wherein people, in bad faith, try to discredit and bring down past storylines to prop up current ones.

MoP, despite its whimsical theme, started with a madman nuking a city and escalating a world war.

Dragonflight started with the Azeroth Avengers teaming up on a friendly expedition where every race is friendly and having fun together.

MoP and DF are completely incomparable. There should be an inverse term for "nostalgia".

There's too much historical revisionism going on, acting like MoP was in any way comparable to DF, when vast majority of MoP was about faction war and Old Gods.

[milkmustache]

Dragonflight started with the Azeroth Avengers teaming up on a friendly expedition where every race is friendly and having fun together.

I don't understand why there wasn't even any form of rivalry within the Dragonscale Expedition. The Reliquary is a blood elf organization, whom are notoriously pompous. The Explorer's League is a dwarven organization, who have tons of experience with Titan relics. Each of those organizations should think they're carrying the weight which should incite a fun but serious rivalry. There doesn't have to be a full on bloodshed war, but it's just so strange that any recognition of racial or faction alleigences are just completely absent.

[Varodoc]

I don't understand why there wasn't even any form of rivalry within the Dragonscale Expedition. The Reliquary is a blood elf organization, whom are notoriously pompous. The Explorer's League is a dwarven organization, who have tons of experience with Titan relics. Each of those organizations should think they're carrying the weight which should incite a fun but serious rivalry. There doesn't have to be a full on bloodshed war, but it's just so strange that any recognition of racial or faction alleigences are just completely absent.

Danuser and his team probably didn't play in Vanilla and didn't know that the Explorer's League started digging in sacred ground in Mulgore, upsetting the Elements. They probably don't know anything about Bael Modan.

They probably think that the Explorer's League is just a friendly group for nerds who like archaeology, without knowing that the group can actually be ruthless and cold-blooded in its pursuit of ancient knowledge.

Remember when the Explorer's League did this? Clearly Danuser doesn't.

[Ersula]

Remember when the Explorer's League did this? Clearly Danuser doesn't.

If the Alliance & Horde have come to terms with bombing each other, why would they care about excavating a long-dead troll tribe temple? You're really suggesting either group should still be mad about this?

Are you still going to be complaining about Danuser now that Metzen is overseeing everything?

[Varodoc]

If the Alliance & Horde have come to terms with bombing each other, why would they care about excavating a long-dead troll tribe temple? You're really suggesting either group should still be mad about this?

Are you still going to be complaining about Danuser now that Metzen is overseeing everything?

Clearly you don't remember that storyline either. It was a Tauren settlement.

[Schwert]

Bit late, but MoP was one of the best expansions of all time between it's world building, how it handled the faction war, the side stories, the themes, and the dialogue.
I'd take a MoP theme "silly" expansion over Dragonflight, and hope we never get another Dragonflight again.

We can work together without the forced soft friendship stuff. If anything, having both the conflicts / tensions and the groups that get along happening at the same actually feels better than just one or the other at full force. It's more dynamic, and more believable because that's how actual people are.

Every single time people bring up an expansion and how good it was, there was faction conflict in it somewhere. Even Legion, and Legion also handled it wonderfully despite it not really being super focal. Warden towers still some of the best PvP content they ever did.

[Scyth]

Yeah, the impression I get is that they couldn't decide whether they wanted into do full deep dives into the identity of each flight or if they wanted a story about the Incarnates, and what we ended up getting was kind of both and kind of neither. Like how the red flight doesn't have any real post-launch story to itself, how Vyranoth doesn't do anything or even show up in-game outside of a cutscene until 10.1.5, etc.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the blue story is maybe the most universally well received one this expansion and it's one that only came in two clean chunks, 10.0 and 10.2. It's coherent because it came out in a timely fashion and wasn't split across patch after patch with obvious rewrites or ideas going nowhere mid-story.



I remember people talking about swapping Aberrus and DotI for the megadungeon and raid, but swapping DotI with Amirdrassil makes so much sense put like that. I think it's undeniable the story changed heavily (or just as likely, they didn't plan far ahead), and I'm not going to be quick to immediately blame the pivot to the Worldsoul Saga for that when this is just following the same trend we saw with SL and BfA.

I still wish Aberus and doti were switched around tbh. Aberus was such a weak plotline imo and it didn't deserve a raid.