Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

Do you think frostbolt fires a literal crossbow bolt? It's a magic projectile; they're all just magic projectiles. That it was some sort of unique bullet from the Jailer was some wild headcanon when Sylvanas has been shooting magic at people since forever.
Yes it is. "Affects the nearest ally within 25 yds, preferring damage dealers, if you do not have an ally targeted." I believe it's the only ability in the game with a tooltip describing a mechanic like this. You saying they programmed an entirely new mechanic into an ability if that's not how it's intended to work?

I mean, that was not my point. No one who even remotely cares about playing Augmentation just randomly presses Prescience without targeting anyone, and no one will use new-PI without targetting someone unless they are trolling.

Yeah, it's a failsafe, but it existing definitely doesn't mean it's the way to plasy it.

[Alanar]

Sure, but survival currently doesn't even use dw, we are stuck with a 2hander. And no, BM is way way way more fitting than SV for DR, Blizzard actually agrees with that too.

(But to be fair, I would be up for opening dw transmog for hunters aswell as the return of the range slot so that BM can actually transmog both Sylvanas daggers aswell as her bow)

Surv could easily be a dw spec or a talent for it. Surv can lean into that and also in the dark hound aspect. You would literally hit two flies there. Meh looking at the interview and how he described the fantasy, he had no clue man. That was pretty painfull.

Bm is the least fitting for dark ranger tbh, and it seems many are saying this as well. Been hot topic in the feedback thread as well. As of transmog, ye that would be a cool thing, I just dont see them doing any of that. We cant even use the quiver and cloak together.

[Makorus]

Surv could easily be a dw spec or a talent for it. Surv can lean into that and also in the dark hound aspect. You would literally hit two flies there. Meh looking at the interview and how he described the fantasy, he had no clue man. That was pretty painfull.

Bm is the least fitting for dark ranger tbh, and it seems many are saying this as well. Been hot topic in the feedback thread as well.

Dark Ranger literally was a pet hero in WC3. You had skeletons from Black Arrows + Charm. When the talent was added in Legion, it was partially pet based as well.

No one associates Dark Rangers with melee. Yeah, there are some Dark Rangers that use melee, but no one actually associates it with that. It's the whole fanwank of "omg Anduin is a priest but he uses armour????" all over again. Just because one NPC does something doesn't mean it's a common thing. Yeah, Dark Rangers use melee weapons, just like every Hunter pre-Cataclysm did. Realistically, most Rangers would carry a melee weapon on them. That does not change the fact that Dark Rangers are mainly range based.

Granted, the association with pet builds isn't as clear as MM either, but at least there is history there.

[Lady Atia]

Dark Ranger literally was a pet hero in WC3. You had skeletons from Black Arrows + Charm. When the talent was added in Legion, it was partially pet based as well.

No one associates Dark Rangers with melee. Yeah, there are some Dark Rangers that use melee, but no one actually associates it with that. It's the whole fanwank of "omg Anduin is a priest but he uses armour????" all over again. Just because one NPC does something doesn't mean it's a common thing. Yeah, Dark Rangers use melee weapons, just like every Hunter pre-Cataclysm did. Realistically, most Rangers would carry a melee weapon on them. That does not change the fact that Dark Rangers are mainly range based.

Granted, the association with pet builds isn't as clear as MM either, but at least there is history there.

This. Again, the best way to handle this would be to bring back the "ranged slot". Paladins and co can just get cool librams and other stuff that was actually planned anyways, they even did a blog post but never continued to work on that stuff. That way, BM and MM Dark Rangers can have both dual wield weapons aswell as their bow again, just like basically every NPC out there.

[Alanar]

Dark Ranger literally was a pet hero in WC3. You had skeletons from Black Arrows + Charm. When the talent was added in Legion, it was partially pet based as well.

No one associates Dark Rangers with melee. Yeah, there are some Dark Rangers that use melee, but no one actually associates it with that. It's the whole fanwank of "omg Anduin is a priest but he uses armour????" all over again. Just because one NPC does something doesn't mean it's a common thing.

Granted, the association with pet builds isn't as clear as MM either, but at least there is history there.

Idk why you felt the need to expres your opinion here as its some kind of fact. No one, means literally you.

Many feel it has two sides and shown in game. I cant deny its been a very aspect of the dark ranger, I would be lying. The dark ranger as an archtype, is not perse a pet class. Summoning dark minions was the necromancer part, that doesnt seem to be returning so much. Bm is all about your pets and is built around that fantasy. Dark ranger simply isnt, so no. Daggers/one handers have been a thing since wrath and it continued with Nathanos and Sylvanas in shadowlands. I rarely saw a bow, its simply an aspect that is very much discussed as well here as well as the official feedback thread for it. So, saying no one is kinda dumb. Hence many are saying surv/mm would have been a better match and I agree with that more tbh.

Look the discussion what heroes/nps do, players cant. Is such a sad thing, because its obvious people want what npcs are wearing/using. Its the only reference we have in game, what people think is cool and want. The abillity defile for example was aksed for years, cus of Arthas. Well, we got it in mop. They could, instead said no, its Arthas hes a hero hes special so you cant get it.

[Makorus]

Idk why you felt the need to expres your opinion here as its some kind of fact. No one, means literally you.

Many feel it has two sides and shown in game. I cant deny its been a very aspect of the dark ranger, I would be lying. The dark ranger as an archtype, is not perse a pet class. Summoning dark minions was the necromancer part, that doesnt seem to be returning so much. Bm is all about your pets and is built around that fantasy. Dark ranger simply isnt, so no. Daggers/one handers have been a thing since wrath and it continued with Nathanos and Sylvanas in shadowlands. I rarely saw a bow, its simply an aspect that is very much discussed as well here as well as the official feedback thread for it. So, saying no one is kinda dumb. Hence many are saying surv/mm would have been a better match and I agree with that more tbh.

Look the discussion what heroes/nps do, players cant. Is such a sad thing, because its obvious people want what npcs are wearing/using. Its the only reference we have in game, what people think is cool and want. The abillity defile for example was aksed for years, cus of Arthas. Well, we got it in mop. They could, instead said no, its Arthas hes a hero hes special so you cant get it.

What are you waffling about?





More examples of Sylvanas using a bow: https://youtu.be/jSJr3dXZfcg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTtSlQfSsQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYNCCu0y-Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9HVy1vgws and literally every Sylvanas cinematic excluding the Makgora.

Yeah, Dark Rangers having a melee weapon was a thing in Wrath because Hunters HAD to equip a melee weapon. But they never not had a bow. Yeah, even the Dark Rangers patrolling Undercity, they had daggers out, but they literally used bows in combat.

Beast Mastery Dark Ranger is a reach but it has foundation in WC3 and fulfills the "summons skeletons to fight" archetype of Dark Rangers. Survival Dark Ranger is copium based on characters having a close range weapon and offers nothing in regards to the Dark Ranger fantasy.

[Varodoc]

The Dark Ranger Hero talent tree is based on the WC3 Neutral Hero, the Dark Ranger (of which Sylvanas was the playable representative in the campaign, like Arthas for Death Knight, Jaina for Archmage, or Thrall for Farseer).

The WC3 Dark Ranger uses Bow. Therefore, the WoW Dark Ranger Hero talent, based on the WC3 Dark Ranger Neutral Hero, uses Bow.

It's fairly straight-forward and simple to understand.

[Ersula]

The Dark Ranger Hero talent tree is based on the WC3 Neutral Hero, the Dark Ranger (of which Sylvanas was the playable representative in the campaign, like Arthas for Death Knight, Jaina for Archmage, or Thrall for Farseer).

The WC3 Dark Ranger uses Bow. Therefore, the WoW Dark Ranger Hero talent, based on the WC3 Dark Ranger Neutral Hero, uses Bow.

It's fairly straight-forward and simple to understand.

This is true, but there is also some HoTS sylvanas influence in there: Plus the idea that they're *Dark Hounds* points to Nathanos, rather than Skeletons like in W3.

Above everything else it is about game mechanics. And they devised the mechanics in that way. And we would have been more disapointed if Withering Fire & Black arrow weren't there.

This new hero tree doesn't change anything for people who don't or can't integrate it into their preferred spec. We haven't seen Sentinel or Pack Leader but I doubt it's going to turn players into a Night Elf or Orc, respectively. With all the forms of Dark Ranger customization they've been given, between transmogs, pets & customization options, it comes off as extremely spoiled for people roleplaying as Dark Rangers to say this ruins their emersion. Again, showing the "Class Skin" people will never be happy with anything WoW could give them.

[Varodoc]

This is true, but there is also some HoTS sylvanas influence in there: Plus the idea that they're *Dark Hounds* points to Nathanos, rather than Skeletons like in W3.

Above everything else it is about game mechanics. And they devised the mechanics in that way. And we would have been more disapointed if Withering Fire & Black arrow weren't there.

This new hero tree doesn't change anything for people who don't or can't integrate it into their preferred spec. We haven't seen Sentinel or Pack Leader but I doubt it's going to turn players into a Night Elf or Orc, respectively. With all the forms of Dark Ranger customization they've been given, between transmogs, pets & customization options, it comes off as extremely spoiled for people roleplaying as Dark Rangers to say this ruins their emersion. Again, showing the "Class Skin" people will never be happy with anything WoW could give them.

They can't give Dark Ranger a skeleton minion, because that's already copyrighted by Unholy Death Knights.

How do you think the Unholy Death Knight community would react if they saw Hunters going around with a Skeleton minion? Obviously they would be annoyed and see it as theft against their class fantasy, like the Warlocks when Demon Hunters were introduced.

Dark Rangers in WC3 were a mix of Necromancy and Hunter. The Necromancy part in WoW is already taken by Unholy Death Knight, who can summon a wild variety of Undead creatures (ghoul, geist, skeleton, val'kyr, gargoyle, abomination, zombie, plague eruptor).

The Dark Rangers in WoW are left with the Hunter aesthetic of WC3 DR, hence why they get black arrows and darkhound, which is already a tameable Hunter pet. This is irrespective of Nathanos SOMETIME using Melee weapon (he also uses Bow a lot; in fact, that's his main weapon in the fight, he only goes melee against Tyrande).

[Ersula]

Bm is all about your pets and is built around that fantasy. Dark ranger simply isnt

Besides the W3 concept being a "Ranger meets the diablo 2 necromancer," even in classic, Nathanos is always seen with his dire hounds. The Dark Rangers in Hillsbrad have Spider pets. There's an entire storyline about the care & breeding of them as animal companions.They could still add a Dark Ranger hero class in the future, if they were so inclined. The Hunter Hero Tree would probably be renamed to "Gloomstalker" or something.

Necromancer is also still possible. I would enjoy Death Knight pet customization because DK pets are only sometimes skeletons. Half the classes in BG3 have a undead minion themed subclass. So I don't think you can overdo a vague concept like "animals" or "the undead"

[Raetary]

Imo, they shouldn't have themed the talents after archetypes at all.

For one, we get arguments like above, pointless back and forths on what constitutes them (spoiler, the answer is all of it, because in a franchise as old as warcraft, its in-universe archetypes are not very one dimensional) but it also degrades them and forces the player into one that they maybe don't actually want to play as.

If one talent tree sucks, whether that's because of the actual numbers or because you don't like the gameplay, it means you will have to pick the other despite it very likely clashing with the fantasy you want to play as.

Oh Pack leader is terrible? Well, buckle up my animal-loving tree hugger! time to embrace the dark arts!
And that's assuming you are playing BM, as MM you basically have to choose a clashing archetype if your chosen race isn't an elf, human or forsaken.
People are already making fun of that lunacy.

The trees should've been designed to dive into more general aspects of our classes, rather than forcing a racial archetype into them.

I mean, most of the trees seem to do exactly that, from the few that we have seen and all the ones that have rather generic names.
Which makes the ones that don't stand out quite a bit.

[Nathanyel]

Paladins and co can just get cool librams and other stuff that was actually planned anyways, they even did a blog post but never continued to work on that stuff.

That should be purely cosmetic customization, though, not an actual gear slot. As for MM/BM, they don't need a melee weapon anymore, ranged weapons can now be used at any distance.

[Lady Atia]

That should be purely cosmetic customization, though, not an actual gear slot. As for MM/BM, they don't need a melee weapon anymore, ranged weapons can now be used at any distance.

What's wrong with making it a gear slot? It can just be a stat stick like trinkets but with an actualy cosmetic attached to it.

[Alanar]

What are you waffling about?

Beast Mastery Dark Ranger is a reach but it has foundation in WC3 and fulfills the "summons skeletons to fight" archetype of Dark Rangers. Survival Dark Ranger is copium based on characters having a close range weapon and offers nothing in regards to the Dark Ranger fantasy.

I am waffeling about things we have seen in game. Not very hard to understand. The bow says nothing about what I am talking bout here. The dark ranger fantasy isnt only warcraft 3 or Nathanos. Close combat is defo a part that was very much pressent in the later additions in wow. That you find it offers nothing is your right to think that. I dissagree tho.
I think even what you listed, we have like 3 cinematics in a row, including in game events with these characters that all showed dagger or axe combat. Its the combination that is appealing and that is far from reaching. Thats why people started saying why not surv/mm instead of bm. Bm is reaching and a dark ranger is not perse about their pets in the way a bm work. With surv/mm you have both appeals available(introduce dw, so melee and range with. You can still continue with the dark hound fantasy of Nathanos. No losses there, just more fitting. You also might want to check out the actual feedback thread. There is some good stuff there and people seem to care. Mmo-champion is just mmo-champion and has more doomsayers in general. Its worth the look if you care.

Lets be clear, I am not talking about dominion magic or anything like that. Since we have people here who believe it will then be a jailer champion archtype. Not worth discussing that.

The skeletons are missing in its new form, there is nothing that makes me think about a fantasy of summoning skeletons perse. Maybe they will add something like that later as an oldschool /nod. Right now its all about dark hounds and that has no foundation from warcraft3 no. Thats pure Nathanos. The only nod right now is black arrow, which has been in wow before for a long time. This was even part of surv. Kinda ironic.

- - - Updated - - -

Imo, they shouldn't have themed the talents after archetypes at all.
.

That was expected when you introduce a system that has all these famous archtypes added to it. Hero talents are a hallow form of what people actually wanted with it.

I mean how many times people compared it to class skins and what they wanted from it. When we had a good idea of what it was the excitement settled down rather fast.

[Murlocos]

Imo, they shouldn't have themed the talents after archetypes at all.

For one, we get arguments like above, pointless back and forths on what constitutes them (spoiler, the answer is all of it, because in a franchise as old as warcraft, its in-universe archetypes are not very one dimensional) but it also degrades them and forces the player into one that they maybe don't actually want to play as.

If one talent tree sucks, whether that's because of the actual numbers or because you don't like the gameplay, it means you will have to pick the other despite it very likely clashing with the fantasy you want to play as.

Oh Pack leader is terrible? Well, buckle up my animal-loving tree hugger! time to embrace the dark arts!
And that's assuming you are playing BM, as MM you basically have to choose a clashing archetype if your chosen race isn't an elf, human or forsaken.
People are already making fun of that lunacy.

The trees should've been designed to dive into more general aspects of our classes, rather than forcing a racial archetype into them.

I mean, most of the trees seem to do exactly that, from the few that we have seen and all the ones that have rather generic names.
Which makes the ones that don't stand out quite a bit.

Fully agree with all this. This is very much feeling like the Covenant class fantasy issue stirred up again as well as dredging up the gripes with some of the Legion Order Halls. They've stuck themselves in this awkward middle ground where they're sometimes evoking existing racial class fantasies, but doing so in a way that forces it on races that don't make sense or even harshly clash with the base class/spec fantasy. At the same time, you're also getting these really generic new ones like Colossus or Slayer that evoke no identity at all and therefore carry no expectations, it's just a gameplay feature. There's no consistency to the fantasies here.

I understand class skins may be seen as a pipe dream feature like player housing by players and maybe even some developers, but hero talents as they stand now are just poking the bear and making it angrier. The PvP readability excuse that keeps getting brought up with stuff like the Observer pet getting removed either feels like a weird cover for some broader technical reason they don't want more spell cosmetics, or someone very high up is extremely insistent they never happen. Just add a toggle to disable them client-side if it's that sacrosanct.

I'll just say semi-related too, it's a little disheartening to see Season of Discovery have some fun with more race-specific quests for some classes while retail seems to be marching towards further homogenization and sameyness between every race/class combo.

[Hugnomo]

Don't know if you all saw it, but apparently Steve Danuser has indeed left Blizzard, all the way back to November last year. Just saw a spanish wow website report on it.
I guess that makes sense with how Metzen has been very clearly in charge of the narrative direction of the game. And personaly, even though I tend to not be so negative as most, I do think there were glaring narrative missteps in the past few expansions under his watch. So I wish him the best of luck. And hope for a return to form for wow under Metzen's leadership.

[milkmustache]

I'll just say semi-related too, it's a little disheartening to see Season of Discovery have some fun with more race-specific quests for some classes while retail seems to be marching towards further homogenization and sameyness between every race/class combo.

I really, really hope that this is something that comes back in the Saga. If we're going to break down the faction lines and blur faction identity (which is fine, I think it's partially necessary), then racial and class identity should take a waaaaay bigger seat at the table. It's great for worldbuilding and delivering stories that aren't one dimensional and directly tied to a singular narrative in the story.

[Raetary]

Don't know if you all saw it, but apparently Steve Danuser has indeed left Blizzard, all the way back to November last year. Just saw a spanish wow website report on it.
I guess that makes sense with how Metzen has been very clearly in charge of the narrative direction of the game. And personaly, even though I tend to not be so negative as most, I do think there were glaring narrative missteps in the past few expansions under his watch. So I wish him the best of luck. And hope for a return to form for wow under Metzen's leadership.

Can confirm, his Linkedin has the same info.

Danuser really is gone.

[Alanar]

Besides the W3 concept being a "Ranger meets the diablo 2 necromancer," even in classic, Nathanos is always seen with his dire hounds. The Dark Rangers in Hillsbrad have Spider pets. There's an entire storyline about the care & breeding of them as animal companions.They could still add a Dark Ranger hero class in the future, if they were so inclined. The Hunter Hero Tree would probably be renamed to "Gloomstalker" or something.

Necromancer is also still possible. I would enjoy Death Knight pet customization because DK pets are only sometimes skeletons. Half the classes in BG3 have a undead minion themed subclass. So I don't think you can overdo a vague concept like "animals" or "the undead"

There are many overlaps, I agree a skeleton isnt hurting the dk class at all and summoning one through black arrow would only please people. The necromancy part doesnt really seem to be the focus, even tho its mentioned in the description. There are a few abillities that do shadow damage.

Gloomstalker sounds like a fitting spec name indeed. There is so much you can do there. Pigeonholding the archtype doesnt make much sense either, as of blizzard they draw inspiration from many things.

Dark rangers got some more exposure, but that seems to be missing as well. What we got and was explained in the interview, was a little hollow, but it was warcraft 3 and vanilla. Back arrow (warcraft3+wow) and dark hounds Nathanos. Where did wailing arrow come from again? Was that HoTs?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Can confirm, his Linkedin has the same info.

Danuser really is gone.

Hopefully things can go back up to mediocre now.