Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Varodoc]

We still don't know why he helped the Jailer, considering the Jailer's endgame was complete universal destruction and subjugation. He may be secretly good in some weird roundabout way or have some 90000 IQ evil plan. He just acts/looks like a simple villain.

I wish that the Jailer's endgame was just complete universal destruction and subjugation. But since 9.2 ending cinematic, the Jailer was actually a misunderstood, """"morally grey""", """"complex"""" villain who just wanted to unite everyone against the REAL!!! villain.

We don't know what Denathrius' endgame really is, and it wouldn't surprise if he was using the Jailer as a pawn for whatever he's cooking in the background. Even so, I don't see what good could come from Denathrius succeeding in his plans. He seems to be a complete troll who revels in chaos, hence why he sent his agents to infiltrate every other Cosmic field and just stir up trouble across the Cosmos.

I want Blizzard to turn Denathrius into the Warcraft version of Tzeentch God of Schemes. The ultimate schemer, who just wants to stir up chaos for fun and enjoyment.

They even have the perfect set-up, ironically thanks to Danuser: Denathrius' agents embedded in every Cosmic force, ready to stir up trouble.

Like the Old Gods, Denathrius shouldn't have any ulterior motive, besides chaos in itself. Stirring up chaos through his schemes and his vast network of double agents.

Ideally we would end the Worldsoul saga with Denathrius and Knife N'Zoth as unresolved loose threads out there, that can be used for storylines AFTER the Worldsoul saga.

[Ersula]

Nope. Pure evil villains are the best.

Either or is fine. What I think audiences have an accute eye for is, "are you giving this character a relatable or noble backstory because its important to the story itself, or did you take a screenwriting class & are making them rounded in the strictest sense for masturbatory purposes?" It's not hard for audiences to pick up on that because the story never addresses the moral ambiguity in a meaningful way. This is especially true of the Jailer because we, the audience, were never privy to this moral dilemma. It reminds me of the Eye-patch Lady in Doctor Who, who's given an actual motivation... two whole years after her character was killed off at the end of her season. Pro-writing tip: A story arc is really only an arc if the writer actually knows how its supposed to end before you publish it.

We still don't know why he helped the Jailer, considering the Jailer's endgame was complete universal destruction and subjugation. He may be secretly good in some weird roundabout way or have some 90000 IQ evil plan. He just acts/looks like a simple villain.

The idea is that the people who helped the Jailer would be given cushy administrative roles in his new world order.

I want Blizzard to turn Denathrius into the Warcraft version of Tzeentch God of Schemes.

So, Male Azshara.

[Woggmer]

I see...

How strange, the Progenitor stuff and the Jailer stuff definitely felt like Metzen influenced additions.

I mean, the concept of the Jailer.. as in a being that oversees all the souls of the damned into a hellish nightmare realm.. is something more in line with Metzen, but I don't think he would ever connect the Jailer to the Lich King. He'd consider him an entirely separate being.

[Ersula]

Universe subjugation IS his end goal. His motive isn't morally grey either tbh. Fearing the 7th power is one thing, but his resolve afterwards was totally malevolent.

If he earnestly believes that subjugation is the only way the known universe will survive, isn't that good, not evil? Are good & evil dependent on retrospect? If not, would allowing the universe to be destroyed & all life within extinguished for the sake of free will be the good option?

I don't agree with the premise but isn't it wild Wrathion did this whole thing first in MoP/WoD & had zero consequences? Wild.

[Woggmer]

They are separate entities. There can be a connection lore wise but that's it

When I say a separate being, I mean like he would have the Jailer have no connection to the Lich King in any fashion or have the Helm of Domination be what opens the veil between the Shadowlands and Azeroth. He'd stick to the old lore of the Lich King, while trying to incorporate the Jailer as a different person with his own lore.

[Jolly Roger]

The multiverse was introduced before SL. And the split afterlives were cool regardless of story execution.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, Sylvanas was only team Jailer since BFA, and even then she was on said team with the mind set of being a co worker with the Jailer, and not a slave to him.

Our Arthas was directly tossed into the maw so did that auto port the others there?
Garrosh was supposedly a hero in other realities so when did he end up in revendreth?

Also her seeing him as a partner makes it even worse
She started associating with him in legion and he was never lying to her he was always "I shall remake reality you shall all serve" saying he's an equal partner is like saying the supervisor at an Amazon warehouse is a partner of bezos

- - - Updated - - -

I really hope hero talents don't get ditched like literally every power system halfway through the expansion since Legion

While messy they seem a bit like a first step towards support specs. They can't rework existing specs to support without pissing players off and they can't make new specs for a few classes without pissing people off so why not just slowly introduce more and more abilities to every spec.

The PI change in oracle is also a great example of providing a better alternative to problem abilities

[Makabreska]

I really hope hero talents don't get ditched like literally every power system halfway through the expansion since Legion

While messy they seem a bit like a first step towards support specs. They can't rework existing specs to support without pissing players off and they can't make new specs for a few classes without pissing people off so why not just slowly introduce more and more abilities to every spec.

The PI change in oracle is also a great example of providing a better alternative to problem abilities

Almost guarantee they wont get ditched. They are literally an extension of current talent trees we used to get from Vanilla to WotLK, separated from the main section to not mess with it's balance.

[huth]

Almost guarantee they wont get ditched. They are literally an extension of current talent trees we used to get from Vanilla to WotLK, separated from the main section to not mess with it's balance.

If you think about them mechanically, they're pretty obviously an attempt to avoid the nincompoopery we had with the first two talent systems after expansions added more points.

[Woggmer]

I really hope hero talents don't get ditched like literally every power system halfway through the expansion since Legion

While messy they seem a bit like a first step towards support specs. They can't rework existing specs to support without pissing players off and they can't make new specs for a few classes without pissing people off so why not just slowly introduce more and more abilities to every spec.

The PI change in oracle is also a great example of providing a better alternative to problem abilities

What I can expect is that if they build from the Hero Talents into later expansions, they can pretty much replace the class talent trees, but keep the spec talent trees in another window.

All the class related talents like interrupts, heals, and basic abilities that should've been baseline to the main class, will become baseline. With the Hero Talents taking their place and expand them even further.

[Ersula]

If you think about them mechanically, they're pretty obviously an attempt to avoid the nincompoopery we had with the first two talent systems after expansions added more points.

This. It's supposed to be the solution to the Borrowed Power dilemma which in turn was the solution to adding new abilities every expansion, but then also having to prune abilities to avoid bloat: A new selection of abilities but as part of a kit you can only have one of at a time.

Expect at least one new Hero Talent Tree per class every expansion. They just started with this amount so everyone would have at least 2 options. Which is partly why people complaining about the current selection seems so annoying: I'm sure they'll add Farstrider to Hunter in Midnight.

I also suspect they will also experiment with not raising the level cap in Midnight & The Last Titan for the sake of talent points. They might expand the beginner talent trees or Hero talent trees slightly if they raise the level cap after that.

All the class related talents like interrupts, heals, and basic abilities that should've been baseline to the main class, will become baseline. With the Hero Talents taking their place and expand them even further.

No, see, that will cause ability bloat. And the three trees fit perfectly into the tree window; at 10.0 the UI seemed weird because there's so much negative space, and now we know why. I doubt they plan on lengthening any of the trees, because by the time that would feel necessary, they'll just do another level squish.

[Nize]

Hero Talents are more of a solution towards the problem the old talent system had, which was a never-ending power creep boost as each expansion went on.

Hero Talent suites can be added every expansion without the power creep dilemma. You can only choose one, after all. It's actually a pretty damn good solution. We'll see if it spawns its own set of problems, but for World Soul Saga, it'll do well.

[Nightshade711]

Hero Talents are more of a solution towards the problem the old talent system had, which was a never-ending power creep boost as each expansion went on.

Hero Talent suites can be added every expansion without the power creep dilemma. You can only choose one, after all. It's actually a pretty damn good solution. We'll see if it spawns its own set of problems, but for World Soul Saga, it'll do well.

I think one problem with hero talents could just be bloat, if they just keep adding new ones each expansion. Unless any new ones would apply to every spec in a given class I suppose.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I would argue that the voice actor of Denathrius did the heavy lifting. At its core he is just a Vampire edgelord you can find in any franchise. The voice actor gave him that campy over the top twist that was really fun.

this 100%, Denathrius as a character has nothing special: it's just another fruity/sexy scheming vampire-type
now the voice acting though... *chef's kiss*

[Dracullus]

I think one problem with hero talents could just be bloat, if they just keep adding new ones each expansion. Unless any new ones would apply to every spec in a given class I suppose.

Whole thing is designed to last to level 100/Last Titan. It's imposible to add stuff together and borrowed power system (constant base + added layer from current expansion that vanish after expac is done) failed, so next logical thing to try is hard reset every X expansion.

Level squish + total class/talents revamp + hopefully world revamp should be enough to avoid BfA situation.

[huth]

Whole thing is designed to last to level 100/Last Titan. It's imposible to add stuff together and borrowed power system (constant base + added layer from current expansion that vanish after expac is done) failed, so next logical thing to try is hard reset every X expansion.

Level squish + total class/talents revamp + hopefully world revamp should be enough to avoid BfA situation.

That's just borrowed power with a longer term of lease. Literally.

[Dracullus]

That's just borrowed power with a longer term of lease. Literally.

Yes and no. First, it's important if something happens every ~10 years instead of every 2. Second, you can mask losing power with starting new saga/big revamps/stuff like that which you can't do with every expac.

But biggest difference between Legion/BfA and this situation is that you don't really grind anything here, whole thing is available as soon as you reach max level. So next reset will be something more like pruning after MoP/WoD.

[Makabreska]

That's just borrowed power with a longer term of lease. Literally.

By that logic new talent rows we got in BC and WotLK were also borrowed power, because Cata pruned talent trees hard.

Peeps need to stop having this allergic reaction to "borrowed power" buzzword the moment they hear something might get removed/be temporary. Some were screaming it really hard when they learned about Onyx Annulet.

This is not Legion/BfA/SL situation anymore.

[huth]

By that logic new talent rows we got in BC and WotLK were also borrowed power, because Cata pruned talent trees hard.

Peeps need to stop having this allergic reaction to "borrowed power" buzzword the moment they hear something might get removed/be temporary. Some were screaming it really hard when they learned about Onyx Annulet.

This is not Legion/BfA/SL situation anymore.

Well, yes. That's kinda the point. Things haven't actually changed much. The whole complaint about "borrowed power" was stupid from the start.

[Nymrohd]

Every expansion needs to offer new play styles and abilities to classes so that people whose main focus is gameplay (likely the significant majority of players) have something to be excited for.

The thing is, the new talents do not need to be in a vertical power system. They can also be horizontal. Adding mutually exclusive options allows people to try new things or stick to what they already love. Additional levels could just offer blanket power gains.

So with Hero Talents the option would be to just add more options instead of extending them. The main issue then is that the initial batch would need to be much more abstract themed. But that would mean that each class would at best have One Hero talent that has a strong theme.

[Polybius]

Afrasiabi was fired in the summer of 2020, roughly around when the SL beta started. In an interview for 9.1, they stated that they didn't figure out the actual story for the patch beyond vague ideas of "fight Sylvanas, go deeper into Maw" until the end of 2020/start of 2021, so after 9.0's launch. I think it's safe to say that 9.1 onwards is wholly on Danuser and the team under him, and it's yet another reminder that they make all this up as they go and don't have some intricate master plan that mysteriously goes totally awry over and over again.

There’s strong evidence of this from the BFA ptr. I’m sure there are Wowhead articles with constant changes in dialogue.

- - - Updated - - -

Every expansion needs to offer new play styles and abilities to classes so that people whose main focus is gameplay (likely the significant majority of players) have something to be excited for.

The thing is, the new talents do not need to be in a vertical power system. They can also be horizontal. Adding mutually exclusive options allows people to try new things or stick to what they already love. Additional levels could just offer blanket power gains.

So with Hero Talents the option would be to just add more options instead of extending them. The main issue then is that the initial batch would need to be much more abstract themed. But that would mean that each class would at best have One Hero talent that has a strong theme.

Curious if they’ll add more talents to each Hero spec as the xpac progresses.