Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Teriz]

I mean, what other ideas do you think Blizzard could do?

Undermine, if it doesn't appear in TWW.

[Raetary]

The cosmology is not going anywhere, Metzen is literally the guy who pioneered it.

The only thing we can desperately hope for is that under Metzen they'll at least try to incorporate it into the story more organically, rather than hamfisting it in like they did in SL and DF.

[Daniri]

Metzen worked on the Chronicle which established the six cosmic forces in the first place.

It's where the concept was taken that people take issue with. The way we talked about the cosmic forces in 2016 is nothing like the way we talk about them now. I have no idea if Metzen wants to dial it back and wouldn't bet on it, but what the Chronicle established is not the problem.

[Varodoc]

Chronicle legit gave us a new Pantheon (The Void Lords), which implied the existence of potential other pantheons that were out there as well.

At no point of Chronicles were the Void Lords referred to as a "pantheon". That is modern Danuser terminology you are using now to incorrectly do historical revisionism for an agenda's sake.

[Varodoc]

They don't need to be expressed as a pantheon directly, but that is what they represent. They are a group of Gods that rule over the Void and embody it. That's a Pantheon.

No, that is not a pantheon in Chronicles lore.

In Chronicles lore, there is only one pantheon, the Titan Pantheon.

In Chronicles and, really, any kind of lore predating Shadowlands, "pantheon" is not a generic, all-encompassing term that you can apply to any given group of Divine beings. It is a capitalized noun group referring to a single, specific, precise group of people.

Before the Shadowlands lore, there was never "a pantheon". There was only "The Pantheon", which was the Titan group. Nothing more.

The Void Lords were literally not a pantheon of anything in Pre-SL lore.

[Ersula]

They're not going to drop level increases. They can't.

Right, they never would. Even though they serve no real purpose: That's the definition of a "formality."

No, that is not a pantheon in Chronicles lore. In Chronicles lore, there is only one pantheon, the Titan Pantheon.

In Chronicles and, really, any kind of lore predating Shadowlands, "pantheon" is not a generic, all-encompassing term that you can apply to any given group of Divine beings. It is a capitalized noun group referring to a single, specific, precise group of people.

Before the Shadowlands lore, there was never "a pantheon". There was only "The Pantheon", which was the Titan group. Nothing more.

The Void Lords were literally not a pantheon of anything in Pre-SL lore.

They literally give us no information about any of the cosmic forces outside of order & discord in Chronicles. Giving more context for existing information is not a retcon. If you're trying to say the Titan's were intended to be the overlords of all cosmic forces, that's not true: They literally stuck a picture of the Titans onto the Order domain in the illustration of the cosmology in Chronicles 1. They elaborated on the cosmology because they had to: The Cosmology in Chronicles 1 is just one sphere we recognize & five mystery boxes.

"Void Lords are in charge of the Void Domain" is not some wild headcanon. It's literally the only thing we knew about the Void.

[Varodoc]

They literally give us no information about any of the cosmic forces outside of order & discord in Chronicles..

Yes, they did, and this is the problem with this New gen. of writers and readers compared to the Old ones, across all media.

You think that everything needs to be revealed in minute details and there should be no mystery anymore. You are wrong.

Chronicles already gave us all the information we needed about the Cosmos. Chronicles already gaev all the information required to understand and enjoy the story. No more additions were required.

You don't need to know anything about Life, Death, Light, and Void besides the fact that they are represented, respectively, by Naaru, Void Lords, Old Gods, Wild Gods, and Undead/Val'kyr, and that the Void Lords want to consume everything. You don't need to know anything more, and a good writer would have left it at that

But we live in an age where the new generation of consumers and writers don't understand the meaning of "mystery" and "unknown".

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Yeah cause back then we only really knew about 1 group of Cosmic gods. We're not in 2010 anymore.

1) The Chronicles series was 2016-2018.

2) Even back in 2010, we already knew that there were other Divine beings besides the Titans. The Old Gods, Naaru, Wild Gods, Elementals, Val'kyr/Spirit Healers were all otherworldly beings that were already known by the playerbase. What are you even saying?

[Varodoc]

I beg you to never read a DC or Marvel comic...

Warcraft is not DC or Marvel. I did not become interested in Warcraft because I want DC or Marvel. Still I expect this post to fall on deaf ears again, given your obsession with turning Warcraft into Dragon Ball Z, DC, and Marvel (which has never been what Warcraft was).

much of these beings were still tethered to the Mortal realm yes?

Completely wrong.

In 2010, we already knew that the Naaru had their own afterlife that they could send souls to, that the Old Gods existed across the stars (read Harbinger Skyriss' quotes from the Arcatraz, the appearance of an Old God was even present in an Outland quest), that the Elemental Lords had their own separate pocket dimensions, that the Wild Gods dwell in the pocket realm of the Emerald Dream, that the Val'kyrs/Spirit Healers are linked to the Shadowlands (which was just a ghostly palette swap of Azeroth back in WotlK). We even knew the existence of the Void Lords, like Dimensius in TBC who was already confirmed the Void Lord who destroyed the Ethereal homeworld. The only thing Chronicles did was recontextualize the Old Gods as the creations of the Void Lords like Dimensius.

Even in WC1, when the setting was just a generic rip-off of Warhammer, we knew the existence of otherworldly beings called "Daemons" who could sometimes manifest on Azeroth (the concept would be developed in later games into the Demonic Burning Legion).

[Ersula]

But we live in an age where the new generation of consumers and writers don't understand the meaning of "mystery" and "unknown".

You can't rely on the same mystery forever. Shadowlands did not dispel the mystery around the cosmic forces....Legion did. We were traveling across the universe & brofisting with Ammonthul. Not only that but the Titans need our help to solve a problem they created. At that point, all mystery surrounding the existing cosmos & Titans was completely gone.

The First Ones & the minutia of the lore itself is not the problem: The way the story is being told is. You can't be complaining that "writers don't understand the meaning of mystery" when you, right now, are complaining about the new mystery they introduced (The First Ones.)

[Foolicious]

No, that is not a pantheon in Chronicles lore.

In Chronicles lore, there is only one pantheon, the Titan Pantheon.

In Chronicles and, really, any kind of lore predating Shadowlands, "pantheon" is not a generic, all-encompassing term that you can apply to any given group of Divine beings. It is a capitalized noun group referring to a single, specific, precise group of people.

Before the Shadowlands lore, there was never "a pantheon". There was only "The Pantheon", which was the Titan group. Nothing more.

The Void Lords were literally not a pantheon of anything in Pre-SL lore.

Thats just twisting language for your own agenda dude. Pantheon isn't some made up word. It has a clear definition and can be used for more than the titans. Yes there is "the" pantheon, but that doesn't mean there aren't a dozen other ones.

[Varodoc]

You can't rely on the same mystery forever. Shadowlands did not dispel the mystery around the cosmic forces....Legion did. We were traveling across the universe & brofisting with Ammonthul.

No we were not "brofisting with Aman'thul", that is your historical revisionism to push an agenda. Aman'thul and the other Titans appeared literally in the final fight of the expansion, to assist the player in fighting the ultimate champion of Sargeras, himself a nascent Titan.

Aman'thul was not a quest giver, like the Primus in Shadowlands. You were not having casual conversations with Aman'thul, like all the Stay awhile and listen convos with the Primus in SL.

Also, while many planets were visited in Legion, practically all of them were random planets either destroyed or invaded by the Legion, which did not actually mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

The only planet that was actually interesting and relevant for the larger picture and wider implications was Elunaria, and it was just one appearance in one raid fight.


No one cared about Random Planet #12 that had to be defended by General DoomBob in the Legion invasions of 7.3 that were literally just a farming scenario with no story.

Thats just twisting language for your own agenda dude. Pantheon isn't some made up word. It has a clear definition and can be used for more than the titans. Yes there is "the" pantheon, but that doesn't mean there aren't a dozen other ones.

This was the only Pantheon before Shadowlands.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Pantheon


There was not a single other Pantheon or group explicitly called "pantheon" besides that one.

There were not a "dozen other Pantheons" before Shadowlands.

Nowhere in the Chronicles is it even alluded to that there are "dozen other Pantheons".

The Chronicles also never referred to the Titans as the "Pantheon of Order". It simply called them "The Pantheon". It was Danuser lore that first referred to them as "Pantheon of Order" instead of "The Pantheon"; a subtle retcon and downgrading, for those few who are able to read between the lines.

Warcraft WAS inspired a ton by Lovecraft, real life mythologies and religions, as well as DC and Marvel, so yes there can be, will be, and have been cosmic connections to the story. Also, fans will want to explore more of a fictional verse. That's why such mysteries exist in the first place.

No, you are wrong.

The reason why the most beloved franchises are those written by Older gens (like Lord of the Rings and ASOIAF) is because these Old gen. understood that mystery is important and not everything should be explored.

Also, we knew about all of this, sure, but much of it was never expanded upon

It did not need to be expanded upon.

[Raetary]

Thats just twisting language for your own agenda dude. Pantheon isn't some made up word. It has a clear definition and can be used for more than the titans. Yes there is "the" pantheon, but that doesn't mean there aren't a dozen other ones.

Can't believe i'm supporting Varodoc here, but we are talking about fiction and not real life etymology.

"Pantheon" has its own meaning, history and connotations in the real world, but in the context of the Warcraft universe "Pantheon" is (or rather, was) specifically the name of the collective that are the Titans.

Voidy is right, there was only 'The Pantheon' up until it wasn't anymore.

[Varodoc]

Which, again, the Pantheon were the only cosmic gods we knew of at the time.

Why is that a problem?

I literally want you to find a valid reason why it's a problem for the setting and storyline if the Titans remain the "only Cosmic Gods" that we know of.

[Varodoc]

The Titans literally empowered the Heroes and required our help in order to defeat Argus.

Why is that a problem and how does that diminish the Titans?

Legion definitely "ruined" the mystery of the Titans there.

How does the Titans featuring in the Argus fight "ruin their mystery"?

Even before they were actually called the Pantheon of Order by the devs

I haven't found anything of the sort.

My point is that back then, we knew very little about the greater cosmology,

Which is par for the course. You're supposed to know very little about the greater cosmology, otherwise there's no point in even calling it "greater cosmology" anymore if you know everything about it.

so the idea of there being different pantheons was unknown at the time

Yeah, because the idea didn't exist and the different pantheons didn't exist until Danuser came along, that should be obvious.

However, you seem to take issue with WoW expanding upon everything, and that is where I'm confused.

I don't have an "issue" with WoW expanding the setting.

I had no issue back in WC3, when the setting expanded the cosmology with the Burning Legion and the Twisting Nether/Outland.

I had no issue back in TBC, when WoW expanded the cosmology with the Naaru and their dimensional vessels.

I had no issue with Chronicles itself expanding on the Void and retroactively recontextualizing the Old Gods as being of the Void (Before Chronicles, the Old Gods were not associated to the Void Lords like Dimensius).

I am simply one of a few who understand that there are limits and boundaries to everything, including the expansion of a setting's cosmology. Chronicles was a good stopping point for the expansion of the setting's cosmology. We didn't need to know anything more than what was stated on Chronicles.

You, unfortunately, seem to think that everything must be expanded to no end. By this virtue, you will have to update your username when the Zero Ones are introduced in 30.0.

[huth]

Right, they never would. Even though they serve no real purpose: That's the definition of a "formality."

Of course they wouldn't. Because contrary to your misled belief, they in fact do serve a very important purpose. Unless you want to start The Last Titan with >100% crit.

[Nibelheimy]

Can't believe i'm supporting Varodoc here, but we are talking about fiction and not real life etymology.

"Pantheon" has its own meaning, history and connotations in the real world, but in the context of the Warcraft universe "Pantheon" is (or rather, was) specifically the name of the collective that are the Titans.

Voidy is right, there was only 'The Pantheon' up until it wasn't anymore.

I'm normally fully on the other side of the fence battling against Varodoc here, but he is right.

[epigramx]

Yes, public hates this unethical decision and it clearly doesn't work, that's why more and more publishers are doing it

That doesn't mean much. Children entered the online-gaming market en masse in the past few years (because ~10 years ago small children were not on the internet 24/7 as much) [e.g. phone-gaming and tablet-gaming for children is massive on pay2win nonsense].

For games for adults like WoW (more or less for adults) I think it's way more insulting than it's often implied to be that unethical (or much more NOTICED(kids are more naive and they can be more easily fooled on tablet/phone gaming)).

[Ersula]

Of course they wouldn't. Because contrary to your misled belief, they in fact do serve a very important purpose. Unless you want to start The Last Titan with >100% crit.

But the same time they raise the level cap they almost always nerf scaling anyway: They don't actually need to do both. Also, remember when they just set raidbosses as two levels above the actual levelcap?

[Pyrophax]

But the same time they raise the level cap they almost always nerf scaling anyway: They don't actually need to do both. Also, remember when they just set raidbosses as two levels above the actual levelcap?

It is still true, but raid bosses +3, dungeons +2

[Nibelheimy]

Idc if the story improves now Danusers gone the fact remains that Shadowlands doesn't need people to explain how terrible it was for the game, how it ruined decades of lore and turned a beloved franchise into a joke for many of its players. Link the clip of nobbel loosing faith in it.

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Sure you are...

No offence to the guy, but normally I close out of the forums and eye roll on his regular tirades and don't come back for days on end. What sort of reply is this?