Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

Genius in principle, not in execution.

Nobody's even played it yet. We don't know its execution. Somehow everyone's already convinced its as bad as covenant abilities, even though it's already infinitely better than that because you're not locked into a single one.

Talents trees will become bloated no matter what. I guess that they have a plan and it will last until TLT is done, which is a lot of years, so good job, but I cannot even imagine how bloated with skills we will be by then.

IMO WoW needs less skills, not more.

Until they solve the problem of having to add more skills each expansion just to spice things up a bit, skill bloat will be a problem. Maybe a system similar to D3 in which we can just select a number of active skills will make things easier and more manageable, but I guess that something like that would imply a full revamp of the combat system.

The idea is they'll be adding more hero trees periodically instead of making any trees longer: Probably one new tree per class per expansion. So new abilities, but not an increase in overall total abilities at any given time.

[Cheezits]

When do we think we're getting another leveling event?

[Gurahk]

Genius in principle, not in execution.

I main a Vengeance DH and the Aldrachi Reaver is one of the more simple Hero Talents tree IMO, yet it adds a bunch of stuff that I will need to pay attention to.

Frankly, just reading the wall of text of some talents makes me lose interest.

Talents trees will become bloated no matter what. I guess that they have a plan and it will last until TLT is done, which is a lot of years, so good job, but I cannot even imagine how bloated with skills we will be by then.

IMO WoW needs less skills, not more.

I don't think you understand how it works, they'll add more hero specs that you can spec into, not more talents. It's not gonna bloat the skillset because the talents aren't gonna increase, you'll only get sidegrades.

[doledippers]

When do we think we're getting another leveling event?

probably prepatch

[Woggmer]

Considering the new Saga model it's really rough that Sylvanas wasn't the final boss of BFA because that would've worked perfectly leading up to Zovaal.

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DF followed the Exiles Reach model for "you dont need to know anything to enjoy this" but they ignored a ton of racial and class order lore at its expense. The second they had the Exiles Reach characters in the first camp I figured that was how the expansion would go.

I think it was intentional that the Earthen Ring was used so little for that reason. Kirin Tor squeezed by because Kalec belongs to it (at the start of DF)

LOL what if the dev talk was something like "we are not going to do the Earthen Ring because new players will be confused which elemental people are good and which ones are bad"

If all of it was to avoid confusion, then they're going to create a huge influx of confusion for newer players and need their hands held to understand the lore. New player starts WoW for the first time, "So I guess I pick one of two sides and they're fighting against each other... seems reasonable enough." Plays through Dragonflight as the starter experience, "Wait... I thought they were fighting each other.. they're not? I'm so lost."

And this problem hasn't sunk into the minds of the veterans because they've been through this story so many times that they're sick of it... but for new people, they're just going to be more confused.

[Cheezits]

If all of it was to avoid confusion, then they're going to create a huge influx of confusion for newer players and need their hands held to understand the lore. New player starts WoW for the first time, "So I guess I pick one of two sides and they're fighting against each other... seems reasonable enough." Plays through Dragonflight as the starter experience, "Wait... I thought they were fighting each other.. they're not? I'm so lost."

And this problem hasn't sunk into the minds of the veterans because they've been through this story so many times that they're sick of it... but for new people, they're just going to be more confused.

That is not the lore in Exiles Reach, which they are railroaded through.

[Darkarath]

Nobody's even played it yet. We don't know its execution. Somehow everyone's already convinced its as bad as covenant abilities, even though it's already infinitely better than that because you're not locked into a single one.The idea is they'll be adding more hero trees periodically instead of making any trees longer: Probably one new tree per class per expansion. So new abilities, but not an increase in overall total abilities at any given time.

It is better than Covenants but share some of its problems. Mainly having to play the hero spec that is better and not the one that you would like fantasy wise. Tying player power and class fantasy is a recipe for failure.

The idea that they will be adding more Hero Talents trees in the future (of which I have not seen any comment about, a link would be appreciated), would make the problem bigger and bigger. A true nightmare to balance both in PvE and PvP just for the sheer amount of possible combinations.

And I am pretty sure that before the Worldsoul Saga is done they will add at the very least another tier of talents, with whatever name they decide to give them.

So you see, Hero Talents will just have the same exact problems that they intent to solve. Potentially more, as you are adding visuals and class fantasy to the mix, a very delicate topic.

[Enrif]

Tying player power and class fantasy is a recipe for failure.

That never made sense. Classes are power+ fantasy. Specs are power + fantasy.

It is the core of RPGs to match power and fantasy.

[Lady Atia]

Nobody's even played it yet. We don't know its execution. Somehow everyone's already convinced its as bad as covenant abilities, even though it's already infinitely better than that because you're not locked into a single one.The idea is they'll be adding more hero trees periodically instead of making any trees longer: Probably one new tree per class per expansion. So new abilities, but not an increase in overall total abilities at any given time.

Where have they said that? Because if you do it that way, you will also have the problem that the new hero tree would either be OP or not used at all in their respective expansions compared to the older ones. Besides that, they were already struggling to add 3 hero specs per class, do you really think they can pump out 2-4 more?

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That never made sense. Classes are power+ fantasy. Specs are power + fantasy.

It is the core of RPGs to match power and fantasy.

That only works in RPG's without any logs/dmg meter/minmaxbullshit. As long as you are able to min max it's a horrible idea to force fantasy into power, see covenants. And as long as you have to min max in order to play the highest PVE content for cosmetic rewards it will always feel shit to tie fantasy to power.

Diablo for example, has no extra cosmetic rewards from pushing higher difficulties afaik, so it works there because you can just play your fantasy build in lower difficulties without loosing out on cosmetics. That's different with WoW.

[Darkarath]

That never made sense. Classes are power+ fantasy. Specs are power + fantasy.

It is the core of RPGs to match power and fantasy.

Covenants prove otherwise. This lesson should have been learned by now.

Class fantasy is purely cosmetic. The visuals and sounds of skills, the armor sets, the legendary weapons (as in Legion).

Class fantasy is NOT having a skill that does 200% shadow damage in 10 seconds and every time it ticks it has a 15% chance of shooting and arrow from you ass that does 300% damage.

What matters is how a skill looks and feels. How it looks and how it feels has to match class fantasy. The rest are just numbers.

[Enrif]

That only works in RPG's without any logs/dmg meter/minmaxbullshit. As long as you are able to min max it's a horrible idea to force fantasy into power, see covenants. And as long as you have to min max in order to play the highest PVE content for cosmetic rewards it will always feel shit to tie fantasy to power.

Diablo for example, has no extra cosmetic rewards from pushing higher difficulties afaik, so it works there because you can just play your fantasy build in lower difficulties without loosing out on cosmetics. That's different with WoW.

Covenants prove otherwise. This lesson should have been learned by now.

Class fantasy is purely cosmetic. The visuals and sounds of skills, the armor sets, the legendary weapons (as in Legion).

Class fantasy is NOT having a skill that does 200% shadow damage in 10 seconds and every time it ticks it has a 15% chance of shooting and arrow from you ass that does 300% damage.

What matters is how a skill looks and feels. How it looks and how it feels has to match class fantasy. The rest are just numbers.

We have power and fantasy since Vanilla, and even in DF. You all probably saw charts similar to this


The same talking points about covenant/hero specs apply 1 to 1 to specs and classes.

"Why do i have to play Beast Master Hunter. I would rather play windwalker monk. Just decouple power from class fantasy"

It is the exact same excuse people bring up for Covenant and Hero Specs.

And to note: except for the top 1% of players, no one really cares about the stuff, they just follow guides to their favorite class. And they still play that class even if it isn't the best choice. Because basing all your choices simply on power, but not on things like fantasy and play style, will in the end make you feel miserable. Good luck, you played yourself, sacrificing your own enjoyment in exchange for power that you don't even enjoy. Why do you play this game? It is not a job and you are not a professional that needs to care about 1% shit. Enjoy what is FUN for a change.

[Darkarath]

We have power and fantasy since Vanilla, and even in DF. You all probably saw charts similar to this


The same talking points about covenant/hero specs apply 1 to 1 to specs and classes.

"Why do i have to play Beast Master Hunter. I would rather play windwalker monk. Just decouple power from class fantasy"

It is the exact same excuse people bring up for Covenant and Hero Specs.

And to note: except for the top 1% of players, no one really cares about the stuff, they just follow guides to their favorite class. And they still play that class even if it isn't the best choice. Because basing all your choices simply on power, but not on things like fantasy and play style, will in the end make you feel miserable. Good luck, you played yourself, sacrificing your own enjoyment in exchange for power that you don't even enjoy. Why do you play this game? It is not a job and you are not a professional that needs to care about 1% shit. Enjoy what is FUN for a change.

Man is funny that you are making exactly the same points that Blizzard did when they were trying to convince us about how Covenant's choice would be awesome. We all know how that turned out, right? I guess that there are people that enjoy making the same mistakes over and over again.

[Makabreska]

I don't think you understand how it works, they'll add more hero specs that you can spec into, not more talents. It's not gonna bloat the skillset because the talents aren't gonna increase, you'll only get sidegrades.

IF that's how it's gonna be, then great! Didn't think about this possibility.

[Teriz]

Nobody's even played it yet. We don't know its execution. Somehow everyone's already convinced its as bad as covenant abilities, even though it's already infinitely better than that because you're not locked into a single one.The idea is they'll be adding more hero trees periodically instead of making any trees longer: Probably one new tree per class per expansion. So new abilities, but not an increase in overall total abilities at any given time.

Where did they say that? I'd very much like to know how they plan to accomplish that, because some of the hero talent trees are already stretching the class concept or is coming out extremely bland (like Demon Hunters) because of the lack of design space. I don't see a scenario where we have 6 hero talent trees per class. Some can barely handle 3.

[Dracullus]

I don't think you understand how it works, they'll add more hero specs that you can spec into, not more talents. It's not gonna bloat the skillset because the talents aren't gonna increase, you'll only get sidegrades.

I think it will be just more talents for 12.0 and 13.0 before inevitable hard reset after Last Titan. Would be awkward to get points for 10-80 levels and then nothing 80-100.

[Teriz]

I think it will be just more talents for 12.0 and 13.0 before inevitable hard reset after Last Titan. Would be awkward to get points for 10-80 levels and then nothing 80-100.

I agree. Also if players like certain talent trees like Dark Ranger, I doubt Blizzard is going to force them to spec out of them after TWW. Like if you're level 80 and loving Scalecommander, I doubt they're going to make another Evoker hero talent tree called "Destroyer" that you have to spec into from 81-90.

I believe a more likely scenario is that these trees are the trees they stick with going forward and they simply add more talents to them over time or redo them entirely if they're not working out.

I could also see them start to raise levels in increments of 5 like they did with Cataclysm and WoD.

[Cheezits]

Interesting that of all the new talents, Evoker is probably the one that has been the most successfully received. But they did the smart thing by focusing on parts of the class that aren't found in other classes (Red, Bronze, Flight).

[Teriz]

Interesting that of all the new talents, Evoker is probably the one that has been the most successfully received. But they did the smart thing by focusing on parts of the class that aren't found in other classes (Red, Bronze, Flight).

Yeah, if you're an Evoker player and you're not happy with your hero talents, I don't know what to tell you. Even the most boring one; Chronowarden looks better than 80% of the hero talents in other classes. Scalecommander and Flameshaper are easily in the top bracket.

[Ersula]

Where did they say that? I'd very much like to know how they plan to accomplish that, because some of the hero talent trees are already stretching the class concept or is coming out extremely bland (like Demon Hunters) because of the lack of design space. I don't see a scenario where we have 6 hero talent trees per class. Some can barely handle 3.

Barely handle? What does that even mean? I thought it was just easy to assume they'd add more options rather than lengthening the existing talent trees, because when you keep lengthening your talent trees you eventually have to prune them. Whereas if you just keep adding hero tree options you don't have to do that, like D&D does with its subclasses.

It is better than Covenants but share some of its problems. Mainly having to play the hero spec that is better and not the one that you would like fantasy wise. Tying player power and class fantasy is a recipe for failure.

Except that is how the game has always worked. It's been better recently but for most of the game's life some dps specs were totally irrelevant. How many people literally change mains depending on what class is projected to do well in the following season? A lot.

if you do it that way, you will also have the problem that the new hero tree would either be OP or not used at all in their respective expansions compared to the older ones. Besides that, they were already struggling to add 3 hero specs per class, do you really think they can pump out 2-4 more?

Considering the hero trees are extremely situational? Considering some of the hero specs we've seen are just very general dps or utility increases with very little creativity? I don't think those things will be an issue.

[Teriz]

Barely handle? What does that even mean? I thought it was just easy to assume they'd add more options rather than lengthening the existing talent trees, because when you keep lengthening your talent trees you eventually have to prune them. Whereas if you just keep adding hero tree options you don't have to do that, like D&D does with its subclasses.

Uh look at Pack Leader and the DH hero tree. They're uninspired and legit terrible. You're telling me Blizzard is going to come up with MORE talent trees when many of the trees in the initial group looks bland and are stretching the concept?

Also again what happens when you like a hero tree? What if you like Dark Ranger? Is that tree simply going to stop getting talents at level 80 and you gotta start speccing into a new hero tree? What happens to your old DR talents? Do they just disappear?

Again, it makes more sense to simply expand the existing hero trees going forward and make them better. If you like Dark Ranger now, you can keep being a Dark Ranger until Blizzard stops supporting WoW.