Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Reive]

they shouldn't add more talents in midnight.

[Lady Atia]

That's the thing about inspiration, you can't count on it happening. Just because these aren't creative doesn't mean they can never think of better ideas in the future. Honestly some players won't want a hero tree that radically changes their rotation.

As for talents, I'm assuming we won't be getting more from 80-100, just more trees. That seems to be the whole point of hero talents; if you keep giving people additional abilities, you then eventually have to take them away, but like subclasses in D&D 5e, you can just keep giving players an infinite selection of alternative kits. Say, for example, by 13.0, Hunters have Dark Ranger, Packleader, Sentinal, Farstrider, Sharpshooter & Cannoneer. Then by the time the worldsoul saga is over, they'll be a level squish & they'll either keep doing this or design something entirely new.
They have directly addressed that power creep & pruning is a problem. I guess maybe they haven't realized hero talents are their perfect out for this, but its a pretty safe bet that purpose is the entire reason they were created.

Since TBC, they've given players new abiltities so they can feel more powerful, but then a few expansions later realized they then had to take abilities away. Then the solution was "borrowed power:" New abiltiies you would only have for the duration of an expansion. Hero Talents is a third option: Add new abilities for players to play with, but you just have to choose between which ones you want: Variety over addition.

Idk, everything you said is your own interpretation because they never said they would do what you think they will do, the only thing that's for sure is that the hero specs are planned to be evergreen (atleast for the WSS). Going deeper makes far more sense than adding even more hero specs although they can't even design the ones from TWW properly because some classes just don't have enough stuff to make good, interesting hero specs with lore relevance. Also adding even more hero specs would be a balancing nightmare aswell.

[Nightshade711]

As for talents, I'm assuming we won't be getting more from 80-100, just more trees. That seems to be the whole point of hero talents; if you keep giving people additional abilities, you then eventually have to take them away, but like subclasses in D&D 5e, you can just keep giving players an infinite selection of alternative kits. Say, for example, by 13.0, Hunters have Dark Ranger, Packleader, Sentinal, Farstrider, Sharpshooter & Cannoneer. Then by the time the worldsoul saga is over, they'll be a level squish & they'll either keep doing this or design something entirely new.
They have directly addressed that power creep & pruning is a problem. I guess maybe they haven't realized hero talents are their perfect out for this, but its a pretty safe bet that purpose is the entire reason they were created.

Since TBC, they've given players new abiltities so they can feel more powerful, but then a few expansions later realized they then had to take abilities away. Then the solution was "borrowed power:" New abiltiies you would only have for the duration of an expansion. Hero Talents is a third option: Add new abilities for players to play with, but you just have to choose between which ones you want: Variety over addition.

I could see them doing some interesting things with this new system too if they wanted.

Like in Midnight they could do a set of void themed hero talents for everyone.

[Ersula]

Idk, everything you said is your own interpretation because they never said they would do what you think they will do, the only thing that's for sure is that the hero specs are planned to be evergreen (atleast for the WSS). Going deeper makes far more sense than adding even more hero specs although they can't even design the ones from TWW properly because some classes just don't have enough stuff to make good, interesting hero specs with lore relevance. Also adding even more hero specs would be a balancing nightmare aswell.

This is a speculation thread. I am speculating. Secondly, you really think being forced to add bigger bedrock talents to every spec is better for balancing then adding a new selection of mini-gimmicks? Because I don't.

[Jastall]

I feel that where the hammer is going to land when it comes to Hero Talents is less so relative power, and more so that some are just not that interesting thematically or visually.

Take the Deathbringer and Rider of the Apocalypse hero talents for instance. Why would the casual player choose Deathbringer for any reason besides it potentially being tubed higher, or marginally better for M+ or whatever, when Rider lets you have mounted combat and generally look badass?

Tuning can easily change hero talents from awful to meta in a heartbeat. But a hotfix is not going to make a visually unimpressive hero talents into an amazing one.

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You can easily tell that there were some standout ideas that simply ooze flavour and theming from every pore, and then a bunch of hastily cobbled together ideas made to fill the quota of a hero spec for every spec.

Deathbringer could have cool scythe visuals that make it satisfying to pilot, but in general I agree with your points. Dark Ranger is a fantasy people want to play. Pack Leader, well, isn't. Slayer is kind of nondescript where Mountain Thane has a clear identity, even if one too tied to one race for me to feel entirely comfortable with everyone having it.

That said, to be fair there's wins and misses in terms of flavor with everything Blizzard adds; not every race, class or spec is equally popular after all. But I do think some of the selections are really kind of low-effort and they could have done better.

[Enrif]

Deathbringer could have cool scythe visuals that make it satisfying to pilot, but in general I agree with your points. Dark Ranger is a fantasy people want to play. Pack Leader, well, isn't. Slayer is kind of nondescript where Mountain Thane has a clear identity, even if one too tied to one race for me to feel entirely comfortable with everyone having it.

That said, to be fair there's wins and misses in terms of flavor with everything Blizzard adds; not every race, class or spec is equally popular after all. But I do think some of the selections are really kind of low-effort and they could have done better.

I’m a main blood dk, so I will not even have the choice of rider. So I’m stuck with sanlayn or deathbringer. Deathbringer seems my choice so far.

But this brings actually a problem with hero specs up, that is probably not addressed yet: what if both hero specs don’t fit what I want for my character? Is there an option to opt out of hero specs, because either would be mismatch to what I want from my character? And if there is a option to opt out, what will the player get on the power side for not choosing a hero spec?
Example unholy dk:with sanlayn you get bloody effects and blood beasts, with rider you get the four horseman. I can see people who play unholy for the undead minion master fantasy. Both hero specs fail to deliver that and pull the fantasy away from that.

[Lady Atia]

I’m a main blood dk, so I will not even have the choice of rider. So I’m stuck with sanlayn or deathbringer. Deathbringer seems my choice so far.

But this brings actually a problem with hero specs up, that is probably not addressed yet: what if both hero specs don’t fit what I want for my character? Is there an option to opt out of hero specs, because either would be mismatch to what I want from my character? And if there is a option to opt out, what will the player get on the power side for not choosing a hero spec?
Example unholy dk:with sanlayn you get bloody effects and blood beasts, with rider you get the four horseman. I can see people who play unholy for the undead minion master fantasy. Both hero specs fail to deliver that and pull the fantasy away from that.

No, you can't opt out and get generic boni instead lol.

[Teriz]

Idk, everything you said is your own interpretation because they never said they would do what you think they will do, the only thing that's for sure is that the hero specs are planned to be evergreen (atleast for the WSS). Going deeper makes far more sense than adding even more hero specs although they can't even design the ones from TWW properly because some classes just don't have enough stuff to make good, interesting hero specs with lore relevance. Also adding even more hero specs would be a balancing nightmare aswell.

Thank you. I simply don't get why Blizzard would bring in something iconic like Keeper of the Grove or Dark Ranger as a hero tree and not continue them throughout WSS.

Also when you hit 12.0 where do you go hero talent tree-wise after you've flushed KotG and Dark Ranger? Again, those are some pretty huge Warcraft concepts.

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Im not going to write paragraphs about my problems with the system, but after seeing the blizzcon preview of mountain thane, and then readinf the pack leader tree. Its hard to imagine its going to look any good. I have a hard time imagining some of these looking good at all, and wish they didnt emphasise on the visual quality so much ich of them at the time. Maybe when we can start seeing some of them visually they will pleasantly surprise.

TBH, as an Evoker player I'm very excited about our hero talent trees. Supposedly Scalecommander: Bombardment has Black dragons flying overheard attacking the target with fireballs. That's pretty sick if true.

[Sondrelk]

TBH, as an Evoker player I'm very excited about our hero talent trees. Supposedly Scalecommander: Bombardment has Black dragons flying overheard attacking the target with fireballs. That's pretty sick if true.

I look forward to Hover being an even more satisfying ability to press honestly. If Devoker is retooled to be more interesting to play then that would be a bonus as well.

[Nibelheimy]

I’m a main blood dk, so I will not even have the choice of rider. So I’m stuck with sanlayn or deathbringer. Deathbringer seems my choice so far.

But this brings actually a problem with hero specs up, that is probably not addressed yet: what if both hero specs don’t fit what I want for my character? Is there an option to opt out of hero specs, because either would be mismatch to what I want from my character? And if there is a option to opt out, what will the player get on the power side for not choosing a hero spec?
Example unholy dk:with sanlayn you get bloody effects and blood beasts, with rider you get the four horseman. I can see people who play unholy for the undead minion master fantasy. Both hero specs fail to deliver that and pull the fantasy away from that.

This is a concern I have as well. For some specs like Blood DK it will only enhance the spec, but I hear the concerns of Destruction Warlocks who feel like they're missing out on anything relevantly themed.

[Teriz]

I look forward to Hover being an even more satisfying ability to press honestly. If Devoker is retooled to be more interesting to play then that would be a bonus as well.

Honestly, both Scalecommander and Flameshaper do a very good job of making Devoker a lot more interesting. Those trees are looking quite impressive.

[Annihilas]

Covenants prove otherwise. This lesson should have been learned by now.

Class fantasy is purely cosmetic. The visuals and sounds of skills, the armor sets, the legendary weapons (as in Legion).

Class fantasy is NOT having a skill that does 200% shadow damage in 10 seconds and every time it ticks it has a 15% chance of shooting and arrow from you ass that does 300% damage.

What matters is how a skill looks and feels. How it looks and how it feels has to match class fantasy. The rest are just numbers.

So Fire spec and Frost spec being separate specs that are good for different things, is bad because one does better damage in thing 1 than in thing 2? You're acting as if the game wasn't always like this... also the hero specs don't have that many fantasy altering parts to them compared to covenants or spell effects. You seem to be speaking very disingenuously here to be quite honest.

[Makorus]

So Fire spec and Frost spec being separate specs that are good for different things, is bad because one does better damage in thing 1 than in thing 2? You're acting as if the game wasn't always like this... also the hero specs don't have that many fantasy altering parts to them compared to covenants or spell effects. You seem to be speaking very disingenuously here to be quite honest.

For every fantasy-altering hero talent, there's like 8 that don't.

People get so hung up over "But my hunter isn't a dark ranger " when the problem with that isn't hero talents, but Dark Ranger.

[Annihilas]

Where did they say that? I'd very much like to know how they plan to accomplish that, because some of the hero talent trees are already stretching the class concept or is coming out extremely bland (like Demon Hunters) because of the lack of design space. I don't see a scenario where we have 6 hero talent trees per class. Some can barely handle 3.

I'm pretty sere ion or somebody stated something to that effect?

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This is a speculation thread. I am speculating. Secondly, you really think being forced to add bigger bedrock talents to every spec is better for balancing then adding a new selection of mini-gimmicks? Because I don't.

Same, I do not think it is easier to keep growing base trees either! Been there, done that, it would be utter insanity to keep trying the same damn thing without at the very least trying something new. It is totally premature to think this an irreparable mess when we only saw the first versions of these talents and we haven't had the chance to actually play them, nor have we seen their iterations. We may very well see massively iterated versions by the time we get our hands on these for testing. People are straight up being obnoxious and super fuciking unconstructive, the youtube baiters are not much better!

[Darkarath]

So Fire spec and Frost spec being separate specs that are good for different things, is bad because one does better damage in thing 1 than in thing 2? You're acting as if the game wasn't always like this... also the hero specs don't have that many fantasy altering parts to them compared to covenants or spell effects. You seem to be speaking very disingenuously here to be quite honest.

I do not understand the point that you are trying to make.

I did not say that different specs are bad. I said that Hero Talents, as they are now, do not seem like a good addition to the game for a variety of reasons, such us:

- Some are uninspired.

- Some do not fulfill the class fantasy that players want.

- Some add unwanted complexity.

- Some players might not like any Hero spec, and they will have to play one either way. The option of playing the spec that are currently playing will not be available.

- Some players will feel forced to play the best Hero spec and not the one that they enjoy fantasy wise. This is Covenants all over again. Not as bad as they were but a similar situation.

I'm pretty sere ion or somebody stated something to that effect?

Link to such declarations please? If it is true, Hero Talents will be a bigger problem than regular talents.

My guess is that the current Hero Talents trees will probably be reduced in Midnight, mixing some together and leaving mostly the active skills, while a new tier of talents will be added (Void Talents or whatever name they come up with).

Adding more Hero Talents as they are now would be a true nightmare. We can only have one active at a time, but they have to follow all the possible combination effects of new and past Hero Talents skill trees, making it impossible to balance.

[Nymrohd]

- Some players might not like any Hero spec, and they will have to play one either way. The option of playing the spec that are currently playing will not be available.

I'd say this is the crux. Before adding the cross spec Hero Talents, there should have first been some pure spec Hero Talents that just focus on the base class fantasy of the spec. This would have made TWW more boring since they would not have been able to trot out things like Dark Ranger which less face it, they needed it. TWW seems to have some very interesting systems but the impact is not strong for marketing and will only show up in gameplay imo.

If we started with a simple Master Marksman Hero Talent and then Midnight added the Dark Ranger and Sentinel it wouldn't matter because you could just stay a Marksman.

[Sondrelk]

I'd say this is the crux. Before adding the cross spec Hero Talents, there should have first been some pure spec Hero Talents that just focus on the base class fantasy of the spec. This would have made TWW more boring since they would not have been able to trot out things like Dark Ranger which less face it, they needed it. TWW seems to have some very interesting systems but the impact is not strong for marketing and will only show up in gameplay imo.

If we started with a simple Master Marksman Hero Talent and then Midnight added the Dark Ranger and Sentinel it wouldn't matter because you could just stay a Marksman.

This strikes me as a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing to me honestly. The same argument would have been prevalent if we got what you said, and only had to assume the actual interesting hero talents would come.

Also, some specs are not all that clear cut in what they are supposed to actually be about. Unholy DK could focus on either minions or diseases, but not likely both.

[Makorus]

I'd say this is the crux. Before adding the cross spec Hero Talents, there should have first been some pure spec Hero Talents that just focus on the base class fantasy of the spec. This would have made TWW more boring since they would not have been able to trot out things like Dark Ranger which less face it, they needed it. TWW seems to have some very interesting systems but the impact is not strong for marketing and will only show up in gameplay imo.

If we started with a simple Master Marksman Hero Talent and then Midnight added the Dark Ranger and Sentinel it wouldn't matter because you could just stay a Marksman.

That would have literally just been more talents.

The thing is: They could have added all the hero talents as just normal talents and affixed them to the end, just without a name. We've literally had Black Arrow as a talent before. But they didn't, because it's gonna lead to eventual talent tree bloat.

Why is one okay, but the other isn't?

If you don't like Dark Ranger BM, pick Pack Leader. If you care so much about performance, it wouldn't have mattered to you anyway even if it was just a "normal" talent.

People get so, so hung up on the names.

[Lady Atia]

I do not understand the point that you are trying to make.

I did not say that different specs are bad. I said that Hero Talents, as they are now, do not seem like a good addition to the game for a variety of reasons, such us:

- Some are uninspired.

- Some do not fulfill the class fantasy that players want.

- Some add unwanted complexity.

- Some players might not like any Hero spec, and they will have to play one either way. The option of playing the spec that are currently playing will not be available.

- Some players will feel forced to play the best Hero spec and not the one that they enjoy fantasy wise. This is Covenants all over again. Not as bad as they were but a similar situation.



Link to such declarations please? If it is true, Hero Talents will be a bigger problem than regular talents.

My guess is that the current Hero Talents trees will probably be reduced in Midnight, mixing some together and leaving mostly the active skills, while a new tier of talents will be added (Void Talents or whatever name they come up with).

Adding more Hero Talents as they are now would be a true nightmare. We can only have one active at a time, but they have to follow all the possible combination effects of new and past Hero Talents skill trees, making it impossible to balance.

Yeah I don't get it, we finally get stuff like Dark Ranger and now suddenly people want them to idk, give every class a light and void hero spec in Midnight instead of adding to these TWW concepts?

[Annihilas]

I do not understand the point that you are trying to make.

I did not say that different specs are bad. I said that Hero Talents, as they are now, do not seem like a good addition to the game for a variety of reasons, such us:

- Some are uninspired.

- Some do not fulfill the class fantasy that players want.

- Some add unwanted complexity.

- Some players might not like any Hero spec, and they will have to play one either way. The option of playing the spec that are currently playing will not be available.

- Some players will feel forced to play the best Hero spec and not the one that they enjoy fantasy wise. This is Covenants all over again. Not as bad as they were but a similar situation.

The point is that all the above points you have right there, are fully applicable to the current and past talent systems. These Hero Talents are appropriately limited to give little nuances to your current specs without continually stretching/building upon them like jenga bricks. You only pick one micro-tree and more trees can be added if players don't like certain ones, since the trees don't affect each other and don't need massive overhauls each expansion. More than likely tuning will be straightforward as far as I can tell, reason being... levels and gear can do most of it passively. How many times do you think they really need to touch these things, once they've made each tree as good as they can be? At that rate they'll just move on to make the next few trees until the majority of players are satisfied with their choices. Simple as that.