Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Darkarath]

That would have literally just been more talents.

The thing is: They could have added all the hero talents as just normal talents and affixed them to the end, just without a name. We've literally had Black Arrow as a talent before. But they didn't, because it's gonna lead to eventual talent tree bloat.

Why is one okay, but the other isn't?

If you don't like Dark Ranger BM, pick Pack Leader. If you care so much about performance, it wouldn't have mattered to you anyway even if it was just a "normal" talent.

Exactly. Talent tree bloat will happen with both systems. Hero Talents do not solve that problem, glad that we are on the same page.

Potentially, though, they will add more problems as we are messing with class fantasy here.

Yeah I don't get it, we finally get stuff like Dark Ranger and now suddenly people want them to idk, give every class a light and void hero spec in Midnight instead of adding to these TWW concepts?

I certainly will not want that. The point that I was trying to make is that they are going to keep adding new talent tiers, not new Hero Talents specs as some are claiming.

Keep adding Hero Talents for existing Hero specs? Maybe. But the problem of eventual talent bloat remains. So nothing changes and this supposedly evergreen system will make the same mistakes that normal talents did.

Again, if this is their plan for talents until TLT is done, It is as good and as valid as any other plan. The execution is bad, though, that is my criticism, not that they are trying new stuff.

The point is that all the above points you have right there, are fully applicable to the current and past talent systems. These Hero Talents are appropriately limited to give little nuances to your current specs without continually stretching/building upon them like jenga bricks. You only pick one micro-tree and more trees can be added if players don't like certain ones, since the trees don't affect each other and don't need massive overhauls each expansion. More than likely tuning will be straightforward as far as I can tell, reason being... levels and gear can do most of it passively. How many times do you think they really need to touch these things, once they've made each tree as good as they can be? At that rate they'll just move on to make the next few trees until the majority of players are satisfied with their choices. Simple as that

Exactly, they are making the same mistakes of past talent trees. But potentially worse for the reasons already exposed.

They touch every skill in the game constantly in one way of another. They are continuously balancing them. Hero Talents are not isolated and no, you cannot add more without affecting the others.

A new skill "A" of a Hunter could interact with an old skill "B" of a Mage and make an overpowered combination for whatever situation. Hero Talents are more and more complicated than what a regular new tier of talents would have been. If you keep adding new ones the amount of possible insane combinations between them would be uncontrollable.

[Nymrohd]

That would have literally just been more talents.

The thing is: They could have added all the hero talents as just normal talents and affixed them to the end, just without a name. We've literally had Black Arrow as a talent before. But they didn't, because it's gonna lead to eventual talent tree bloat.

Why is one okay, but the other isn't?

If you don't like Dark Ranger BM, pick Pack Leader. If you care so much about performance, it wouldn't have mattered to you anyway even if it was just a "normal" talent.

People get so, so hung up on the names.

Honestly I think the only spec that is really fucked thematically is Marksmanship. As you said, BM has a more bland option readily available and I think the same is true for every spec except maybe Monk but then again, non-Pandaren monk never made thematic sense anyway.

[Makorus]

Exactly. Talent tree bloat will happen with both systems. Hero Talents do not solve that problem, glad that we are on the same page.

Potentially, though, they will add more problems as we are messing with class fantasy here.



I certainly will not want that. The point that I was trying to make is that they are going to keep adding new talent tiers, not new Hero Talents specs as some are claiming.

Keep adding Hero Talents for existing Hero specs? Maybe. But the problem of eventual talent bloat remains. So nothing changes and this supposedly evergreen system will make the same mistakes that normal talents did.

Again, if this is their plan for talents until TLT is done, It is as good and as valid as any other plan. The execution is bad, though, that is my criticism, not that they are trying new stuff.

Wait, hold on, how will talent bloat happen with Hero Talents, assuming they are gonna add more hero talents in Midnight and TLT.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what people are talking about. No one is talking about adding more talents to existing hero specs, i.e. Dark Ranger, but adding more hero specs. So instead of choosing between Packleader and Dark Ranger, you choose between Packleader, Dark Ranger and Zookeeper.

I don't see how that would result in any bloat whatsoever, and I don't see how there would be any issues with balancing either because realistically, they wouldn't have to touch any of the old trees.

Honestly I think the only spec that is really fucked thematically is Marksmanship. As you said, BM has a more bland option readily available and I think the same is true for every spec except maybe Monk but then again, non-Pandaren monk never made thematic sense anyway.

For all we know, Sentinel might be thematically bland as well. As I said, the name doesn't really matter in the slightest if the actual gameplay doesn't really help with the thematic. Prime example: Shado-Pan. Yeah, name is obviously Pandaren-centric, but the gameplay doesn't really support that. It could be called Striker for all we know.

There's very few thematically-cohesive specs that limit you to a certain race/faction/archetype. Mountain Thane is quite Dwarf-centric, obviously Dark Ranger.

[Lady Atia]

The point is that all the above points you have right there, are fully applicable to the current and past talent systems. These Hero Talents are appropriately limited to give little nuances to your current specs without continually stretching/building upon them like jenga bricks. You only pick one micro-tree and more trees can be added if players don't like certain ones, since the trees don't affect each other and don't need massive overhauls each expansion. More than likely tuning will be straightforward as far as I can tell, reason being... levels and gear can do most of it passively. How many times do you think they really need to touch these things, once they've made each tree as good as they can be? At that rate they'll just move on to make the next few trees until the majority of players are satisfied with their choices. Simple as that.

But what do you do if you are happy with your choice in TWW but now with Midnight they release Void Hunter and it's just better for raiding and you have to switch from Dark Ranger to Void Hunter in raid and NOW you are unhappy?

[Makorus]

But what do you do if you are happy with your choice in TWW but now with Midnight they release Void Hunter and it's just better for raiding and you have to switch from Dark Ranger to Void Hunter in raid and NOW you are unhappy?

You always had to do that. You had to do it with talents. You had to do it with specs if you played something like Warlock or Arcane. And if you didn't play at a level where it matter whether you played Affliction or Demonology, then it won't matter if you play Dark Ranger or Void Hunter.

There's nothing you can do about that.

[Lady Atia]

You always had to do that. You had to do it with talents. You had to do it with specs if you played something like Warlock or Arcane. And if you didn't play at a level where it matter whether you played Affliction or Demonology, then it won't matter if you play Dark Ranger or Void Hunter.

There's nothing you can do about that.

Yes there is .... just build upon the specs already introduced and use a revamped glyph system to give people the cosmetics they want instead of having them tied to talents?

Like, I always loved the way diablo does it with their sets, enabling multiple valid play styles but if they aren't even gonna give us 3 tier sets at once with fated, I doubt we will get more than 2 hero specs, or 6+ as some of you think.

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Besides that, they stated they always want to give us a new talent point per level, just adding new hero specs that you can spec into instead of the TWW ones wouldn't give us that at all.

[Makorus]

Yes there is .... just build upon the specs already introduced and use a revamped glyph system to give people the cosmetics they want instead of having them tied to talents?

Like, I always loved the way diablo does it with their sets, enabling multiple valid play styles but if they aren't even gonna give us 3 tier sets at once with fated, I doubt we will get more than 2 hero specs, or 6+ as some of you think.

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Besides that, they stated they always want to give us a new talent point per level, just adding new hero specs that you can spec into instead of the TWW ones wouldn't give us that at all.

So they add Dark Arrow and most of the related talents to the normal BM/Marksmanship spec and you still have to pick them because they are still the best option. And then what?

Also, the new Hero Talents are not gonna be "TWW Hero Talents PLUS Midnight Hero Talents", it's going to be "TWW Hero Talents OR Midnight Hero Talents"

Where did they state that they "always want to give us a new talent point per level"? I mean, you can still get a Midnight Hero Talent point so you can use the Midnight Hero talent gradually as you level.

[Ersula]

Exactly. Talent tree bloat will happen with both systems. Hero Talents do not solve that problem, glad that we are on the same page.

Potentially, though, they will add more problems as we are messing with class fantasy here.

This is like saying adding Evoker or Augmentation is bloat. I compare hero talents trees to D&D 5e subclasses & they've never had to prune those. If they just keep adding Hero trees indefinately, I don't believe they'll have to prune them. They might prune the basic spec & class trees, because honestly they're overcomplicated imopo.

- Some are uninspired.

- Some add unwanted complexity.

Do you see how these issues compliment each other? For the most part your preferred spec has two options, a simple, unobtrusive one, & a dynamic, complex one. Grovekeeper, Celestial, Rider, etc all the ones that summon some sort of helper keep your rotation completely the same.

My guess is that the current Hero Talents trees will probably be reduced in Midnight, mixing some together and leaving mostly the active skills, while a new tier of talents will be added (Void Talents or whatever name they come up with).

Adding more Hero Talents as they are now would be a true nightmare. We can only have one active at a time, but they have to follow all the possible combination effects of new and past Hero Talents skill trees, making it impossible to balance.

See, adding them as regular talents makes this problem worse: If these new abilities are added to the basic talent trees as new branches you get builds that double-dip halfway into each: That's bloat. And I don't think anything short of a natural disaster is going to stop hero talents being the law of the land for the entirety of the worldsoul saga.

Besides that, they stated they always want to give us a new talent point per level, just adding new hero specs that you can spec into instead of the TWW ones wouldn't give us that at all.

They want to but that doesn't mean they will. Legion onward level cap increase didn't come with a new row of talents. Especially when they said they plan on doing another leveling squish in 14.0 - Seems to me the current plan is to have the TWW model up still going at that point. Only you'll get one point in both class & spec trees from 10 to 50 instead of alternating levels, then all your hero tree points from 50 to 60.

[Lady Atia]

So they add Dark Arrow and most of the related talents to the normal BM/Marksmanship spec and you still have to pick them because they are still the best option. And then what?

Also, the new Hero Talents are not gonna be "TWW Hero Talents PLUS Midnight Hero Talents", it's going to be "TWW Hero Talents OR Midnight Hero Talents"

Where did they state that they "always want to give us a new talent point per level"? I mean, you can still get a Midnight Hero Talent point so you can use the Midnight Hero talent gradually as you level.

1) They literally created the Hero Specs so they don't have to add to the original two trees for now.

2) Yeah and that's the problem lol. Also they NEVER said that. All they said is that the TWW HERO SPECS will be evergreen. Please link me the interview this "they will do infinite new hero specs down the line" bullshit comes from.

3) Both during Dragonflight and TWW interviews lol. And no, getting Midnight Hero Spec talent tree points during leveling would automatically make the Midnight talents either better than the TWW ones, or useless since you would still just use your old talent tree??

Last but not least, if they just add lets say void and light infused on top we will be a Void infused Blood Elf Dark Ranger Beastmaster or what?^^

[Darkarath]

Wait, hold on, how will talent bloat happen with Hero Talents, assuming they are gonna add more hero talents in Midnight and TLT.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what people are talking about. No one is talking about adding more talents to existing hero specs, i.e. Dark Ranger, but adding more hero specs. So instead of choosing between Packleader and Dark Ranger, you choose between Packleader, Dark Ranger and Zookeeper.

I don't see how that would result in any bloat whatsoever, and I don't see how there would be any issues with balancing either because realistically, they wouldn't have to touch any of the old trees.

Ok maybe I did not explain myself clearly enough, let me try one more time.

First: They are going to add new talent tiers in Midnight and in TLT in one way or another. They might expand current talent trees, current hero talent trees, or take a new form. Every expansion has added talents in or way or another and we have no reason to believe that that is going to change.

So talent bloat and probably skill bloat will happen no matter what eventually.

Second: I did understand you perfectly. My point is that we will have in TWW 39 Hero Talent Trees. 39. If you keep adding more Hero Talent Trees every expansion, at least they should add one more per class or the amount of shit that they will get would be quite a thing to behold. So I believe that there are 13 classes so in Midnight we will have 52 Hero Talent Trees, right? Quite the number. And here is the problem IMO.

For each new Hero Talent Tree that they add, they will have to test how it combines with the 39 old Hero Talent Trees + The 12 new Hero Talent Trees. They will have to test how every skill reacts and behaves with each other and watch out for possible overpowered combinations in every possible aspect of the game. That without taking in account the amount of confusion that it will add to the game, as it is already nearly impossible to know what a certain spec can do depending on which talents it has. Try to keep up with all the new hero skill effects that would be added to the game.

Third: It is just impossible. They are way more convoluted that just a new tier of talents, and they are dissapointing lots of players because their classes will not have the fantasy that they wanted, or because they added the fantasy that they wanted but it is not what they expected. It is a lose-lose situation for them, and it will be a fucking nightmare to balance. When did we have this same exact situation? That is right, Shadowlands.

But I get it, they try, but they will fail again. As long as they are giving options in talents and as long as there are not a limit to the amount of active skills that we can have, skill bloat and talent bloat will happen. I say follow the FFXIV route.

Completely remove specs and talents. Each class has a certain kit and that's it. Make every class fun and with awesome skill effects. They can easily make every spec into their own class. In such a way they can add 2 classes every expansion as FFXIV does. We will not need talents with such a variety. Hell, WoW has quite a number of classes + specs already, and most players just choose the talents that they see in a certain website and never look back.

[Makorus]

1) They literally created the Hero Specs so they don't have to add to the original two trees for now.

2) Yeah and that's the problem lol. Also they NEVER said that. All they said is that the TWW HERO SPECS will be evergreen. Please link me the interview this "they will do infinite new hero specs down the line" bullshit comes from.

3) Both during Dragonflight and TWW interviews lol. And no, getting Midnight Hero Spec talent tree points during leveling would automatically make the Midnight talents either better than the TWW ones, or useless since you would still just use your old talent tree??

Last but not least, if they just add lets say void and light infused on top we will be a Void infused Blood Elf Dark Ranger Beastmaster or what?^^

1.) Right. My point is that the argument you have against them (I have to play something I don't want to, because it's better, and this wouldn't have happened if there were no normal talents) is inherently wrong. Your argument given (Oh, just add nothing and get cosmetic glyphs) is laughable.

2.) They literally call Hero Talents an evergreen concept in every blogpost. How would that even work down the line? Are they gonna keep adding on to trees, when most concepts are already stretched to their limits? Yeah, Slayer is such an amazing concept, I am sure they can add five more rows to that. And them just continuing to exist as is is not evergreen.

3.) How? You hit 71. You get another spec point. You unlock the first talent of the new Midnight specs. You can continue using the fully-upgraded TWW spec or if there is a Midnight spec you fancy, you can try using that. Alternatively, the Void supresses you and you can't access the old TWW Hero Talents until after you finish that story.

And no, once again, it is not on top. Right now, you choose between "Dark Ranger" and "Packleader". In Midnight, you will choose between "Dark Ranger", "Pack Leader", "Void Hunter" and "Light Hunter".

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Ok maybe I did not explain myself clearly enough, let me try one more time.

First: They are going to add new talent tiers in Midnight and in TLT in one way or another. They might expand current talent trees, current hero talent trees, or take a new form. Every expansion has added talents in or way or another and we have no reason to believe that that is going to change.

So talent bloat and probably skill bloat will happen no matter what eventually.

Second: I did understand you perfectly. My point is that we will have in TWW 39 Hero Talent Trees. 39. If you keep adding more Hero Talent Trees every expansion, at least they should add one more per class or the amount of shit that they will get would be quite a thing to behold. So I believe that there are 13 classes so in Midnight we will have 52 Hero Talent Trees, right? Quite the number. And here is the problem IMO.

For each new Hero Talent Tree that they add, they will have to test how it combines with the 39 old Hero Talent Trees + The 12 new Hero Talent Trees. They will have to test how every skill reacts and behaves with each other and watch out for possible overpowered combinations in every possible aspect of the game. That without taking in account the amount of confusion that it will add to the game, as it is already nearly impossible to know what a certain spec can do depending on which talents it has. Try to keep up with all the new hero skill effects that would be added to the game.

Third: It is just impossible. They are way more convoluted that just a new tier of talents, and they are dissapointing lots of players because their classes will not have the fantasy that they wanted, or because they added the fantasy that they wanted but it is not what they expected. It is a lose-lose situation for them, and it will be a fucking nightmare to balance. When did we have this same exact situation? That is right, Shadowlands.

But I get it, they try, but they will fail again. As long as they are giving options in talents and as long as there are not a limit to the amount of active skills that we can have, skill bloat and talent bloat will happen. I say follow the FFXIV route.

Completely remove specs and talents. Each class has a certain kit and that's it. Make every class fun and with awesome skill effects. They can easily make every spec into their own class. In such a way they can add 2 classes every expansion as FFXIV does. We will not need talents with such a variety. Hell, WoW has quite a number of classes + specs already, and most players just choose the talents that they see in a certain website and never look back.

1.) During the Deep Dive panel, they outright said that they do not want to add more talents to the tree, and they can hardly include more talents in the current Hero Talents tree because they already ran out of ideas for the individual trees.

2.) I don't think you understand how class balance works if you think that they go "Myess, how does Fire Mage and Elemental Shaman work together". They test interactions with PI and Aug but I would suppose that's about it. Also, Hero Talents are so simple and 90% of them are just passive and don't fundamentally change the playstyle that saying that there is gonna be "confusion" is just disingenious.

3.) You keep harping on about Covenants but you don't understand why people didn't like Covenants.

[doledippers]

They are way more convoluted that just a new tier of talents, and they are dissapointing lots of players because their classes will not have the fantasy that they wanted, or because they added the fantasy that they wanted but it is not what they expected. It is a lose-lose situation for them, and it will be a fucking nightmare to balance. When did we have this same exact situation? That is right, Shadowlands.

But I get it, they try, but they will fail again. As long as they are giving options in talents and as long as there are not a limit to the amount of active skills that we can have, skill bloat and talent bloat will happen. I say follow the FFXIV route.

Completely remove specs and talents. Each class has a certain kit and that's it.

first of all, it would be SIGNIFICANTLY harder to balance these if they were just stuck at the bottom of the existing talent trees, and it would also be significantly more convoluted. you have it completely backwards. The current trees were designed and balanced around having that many points. The second you add even 1 more talent point, they need to all be completely rebalanced and repathed. It's the exact same scenario that played out in WOTLK and Cata, it is not sustainable to continually add new talent points onto existing trees. Atleast for TWW, this alleviates that problem. What they intend to do going forward with them is another story (and stop acting like you know what theyll do, no one does).

as for "just make the game FF14", yeah, how about fuckin no. Go play FF14 if you want everybody who plays a certain class to be the exact same.

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2.) I don't think you understand how class balance works

they dont understand it whatsoever. as i mentioned if you put 10 new talents at the bottom of every existing spec tree you have to completely rebalance and redo the pathing on every single spec tree, rather than what you have to do with hero talents, which is just tune the knobs on the self contained hero talents. it's so much easier to balance hero talents than it would be +10 on spec trees

[Teriz]

3.) How? You hit 71. You get another spec point. You unlock the first talent of the new Midnight specs. You can continue using the fully-upgraded TWW spec or if there is a Midnight spec you fancy, you can try using that. Alternatively, the Void supresses you and you can't access the old TWW Hero Talents until after you finish that story.

Okay, but if you don’t want to spec into the new midnight hero talents, what do you do with those additional talent points?

[Makorus]

Okay, but if you don’t want to spec into the new midnight hero talents, what do you do with those additional talent points?

Use them for the Midnight tree regardless.

[Teriz]

Use them for the Midnight tree regardless.

Hmmm, I suppose I’m not seeing a difference between adding new talents to an existing hero talent tree and/or adding a new hero talent tree.

[Darkarath]

1.) During the Deep Dive panel, they outright said that they do not want to add more talents to the tree, and they can hardly include more talents in the current Hero Talents tree because they already ran out of ideas for the individual trees.

2.) I don't think you understand how class balance works if you think that they go "Myess, how does Fire Mage and Elemental Shaman work together". They test interactions with PI and Aug but I would suppose that's about it. Also, Hero Talents are so simple and 90% of them are just passive and don't fundamentally change the playstyle that saying that there is gonna be "confusion" is just disingenious.

3.) You keep harping on about Covenants but you don't understand why people didn't like Covenants.

1) Ok, they have added new talents in some way in every expansion but in Midnight and TLT you think that they will not. I hope that you are right. But facts tell me otherwise.

2) Not every player has been playing the game forever or know what every class does. WoW is a VERY complicated game for the regular player out there. Hero Specs just add to that with very little gain (apparently). And they HAVE to test how skills interact with each other. This is a multiplayer game in case that you did not notice. We have a very clear example of overpowered combinations in DF with the addition of Augmentation Evokers. That could happen every time you add a Hero Talent tree.

3) Sadly I was there. I understand it perfectly. They mixed player power and class fantasy. Simple as that, and it is happening all over again, even if we will be able to change our talents in a second, the problem will remain.

first of all, it would be SIGNIFICANTLY harder to balance these if they were just stuck at the bottom of the existing talent trees, and it would also be significantly more convoluted. you have it completely backwards. The current trees were designed and balanced around having that many points. The second you add even 1 more talent point, they need to all be completely rebalanced and repathed. It's the exact same scenario that played out in WOTLK and Cata, it is not sustainable to continually add new talent points onto existing trees. Atleast for TWW, this alleviates that problem. What they intend to do going forward with them is another story (and stop acting like you know what theyll do, no one does).

as for "just make the game FF14", yeah, how about fuckin no. Go play FF14 if you want everybody who plays a certain class to be the exact same.

Who said that new talents should be at the bottom of the talent tree? Nobody talked about that. Man you brought that literally out of nowhere. That would be stupid. I also did not say that they should add more talents. I said that they WILL add them, as they have always done. I did NOT say that that is my desire.

If you think that every class play the same in FFXIV you probably have not played it. BTW I am not a pro FFXIV. I play and love WoW, not FFXIV. I just see things of that game that would make WoW infinitely better IMO.

[Makorus]

Hmmm, I suppose I’m not seeing a difference between adding new talents to an existing hero talent tree and/or adding a new hero talent tree.

Because if you add to an existing hero talent, you have a tree with 20 options, that all have to be balanced around eachother, while if you add a second tree, you have one tree that is already balanced, and another set of talents that you have to balance once and then never again.

[Auxis]

I've secured tomorrow and the day after as sick leave from work. I hope the servers are stable when they come back online.

Edit: omg if they have an extended extended maintenance I might actually lose my shit :[

[doledippers]

I've secured tomorrow and the day after as sick leave from work. I hope the servers are stable when they come back online.

Edit: omg if they have an extended extended maintenance I might actually lose my shit :[

well theres gonna be maintenance from 7am to 3pm PDT , been on the launcher since friday

[Auxis]

well theres gonna be maintenance from 7am to 3pm PDT , been on the launcher since friday

Eh that's not that bad all things considered. Norm for a patch maint.

I mean, like, when they pull the "Maint is gonna take another few hours, folks, because of <blah>." card.