Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ielenia]

Which is irrelevant. Blizzard has made it clear that Yrel's force is a threat. They made that clear by having an entire race flee their home world to escape that threat.

No, they did not. Again, we have one side of the tale.

The same could have been said of Night Elves or Worgen before they were put into the Alliance.

How are those two even remotely comparable? Worgens are human, and used to be Stormwind's allies before the nation isolated itself, and the night elves had an intense dislike of the orcs who killed Cenarius, a dislike shared by the humans who had their lands ravaged by the same orcs.

And they're not reaching into WoD just to pull out those races. They're reaching into WoD to pull a popular character as an expansion antagonist.

Yrel is so highly unlikely to be an expansion antagonist it's safe to say she's not going to be. Again, it makes absolutely no sense due to her story in Warlords of Draenor.

You can't see a scenario where someone becomes so fearful of the Void that they believe that the light is the only salvation and everything else needs to be eradicated so that the light dominates everything else? There's real life examples of formerly good people doing exactly what Yrel would be doing via their insane religions convictions. People do evil stuff in the name of religion constantly and throughout history.

This isn't "real life". This is a fictional story being told, and by being a story it needs a logical structure, and making a character that we spent an entire expansion building up to be a good, caring leader-- again, that Velen would be proud of-- and making them an expansion's BBEG goes against said logical structure.

And the Horde champion experienced Yrel going psycho town themselves. That's Blizzard's way of telling you that yes, that plucky Draenei you knew back in WoD is crazy now.

Except: no. No, they did not. You're ignoring that we entered a devastated Gorgrond area, what was once a lush forest became desolate, and the draenei army's leader points out how the orcs brought ruin to the land. What you're doing here is akin to saying that the Alliance is evil because they invaded Dazar'alor without knowing the context and how the Horde invaded Stormsong Valley first and gleefully tortured and killed innocent civilians in Brennadam.

They would be a threat if they sought to force others into their religion by the sword. That is what Yrel is doing.

That is what the Mag'har claim Yrel is doing. There's a huge difference.

Well again, the pressing issue is that we also saw Yrel's zealotry first hand.

Except, we haven't. Again, we have zero background context on the situation aside from one side.

[Gurahk]

is it though? The orcs do this stuff all the time and the maghar have embraced mass industrialization which we already know ruins the world around it like the goblins and gnomes do.

Like assuming they don’t pull a secret third cause every thing in points to it being the orcs over the goats given that the light has never been shown to have negative effects on any one or anything that wasn’t a demon or undead.

The scorched area in revendreth says hi.

[huth]

The scorched area in revendreth says hi.

That was a retaliation strike, though. Even the Venthyr acknowledge that.

[Gurahk]

Except: no. No, they did not. You're ignoring that we entered a devastated Gorgrond area, what was once a lush forest became desolate, and the draenei army's leader points out how the orcs brought ruin to the land. What you're doing here is akin to saying that the Alliance is evil because they invaded Dazar'alor without knowing the context and how the Horde invaded Stormsong Valley first and gleefully tortured and killed innocent civilians in Brennadam.

Brennadam was a list minute change in the beta. Quillboars were supposed to be the ones to invade, however due to a feedback of "lack of faction war" in the story, they changed it hastily. There's also a problem of Blizzard changing the story depending on which faction does the quest. The war of the thorns is a famous example.
Anyways I'm not entering the Yrel discussion properly, just wanted to point this out.

[Teriz]

No, they did not. Again, we have one side of the tale.

The Burning Legion and the Old Gods have a side too. Doesn't make them any less evil.

Again, which is why Yrel having a "side" is irrelelvant to the fact that she's doing evil stuff.

Yrel is so highly unlikely to be an expansion antagonist it's safe to say she's not going to be. Again, it makes absolutely no sense due to her story in Warlords of Draenor.

It makes perfect sense given what we saw during BFA.

Except: no. No, they did not. You're ignoring that we entered a devastated Gorgrond area, what was once a lush forest became desolate, and the draenei army's leader points out how the orcs brought ruin to the land. What you're doing here is akin to saying that the Alliance is evil because they invaded Dazar'alor without knowing the context and how the Horde invaded Stormsong Valley first and gleefully tortured and killed innocent civilians in Brennadam.


That is what the Mag'har claim Yrel is doing. There's a huge difference.

You need to play the scenario again. Yrel herself rolled up in the presence of the Horde Champion (aka the player) and gave the Orcs the ultimatum to surrender to the light or be eradicated. So no, it isn't just a Mag'har claim, we witnessed it ourselves.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The scorched area in revendreth says hi.

I mean it’s the realm of death so I’d say that falls into it having negative effects on undead.

[Gurahk]

That was a retaliation strike, though. Even the Venthyr acknowledge that.

Right, but it still shows that the light can have a damaging effect on the environment. We don't know what happened to Draenor, for all we know it could've been decaying because of timey-wimey shenanigans.
(For real now I'm out, willing to discuss anything else about the future of DF!)

[Teriz]

is it though? The orcs do this stuff all the time and the maghar have embraced mass industrialization which we already know ruins the world around it like the goblins and gnomes do.

Ruins the world to the point where the entire planet would begin to die? Doubtful.

Several naaru converging on a world and pouring massive energies into it? Possibly.

Like assuming they don’t pull a secret third cause every thing in points to it being the orcs over the goats given that the light has never been shown to have negative effects on any one or anything that wasn’t a demon or undead.

at this point there really isn’t any way to justify any of the alliance siding with Yrel if they come to make war after years of peace even if that peace is none sense, Turalyon has already chosen his wife over following orders, Velan became disillusioned on argus by listening to Illidan, Khadgar would rather watch the horde burn the world then grow a pair.

I suppose we'll see in that regard.

no shot they would kill Yrel after letting sylvnas slide, in all likely hood Xera would just assume direct control over her after she has a faith shaken and then we’d free her and kill Xera.

I disagree. I think Yrel dying for her beliefs would be a fitting end to her tragic story.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ruins the world to the point where the entire planet would begin to die? Doubtful.

we don’t actually know what the world “dying” means for all we know the orcs were mass polluting water ways like the goblins, pumping mass smog into the are killing birds and what not and clear cutting forest.

The goblins and gnomes have been able to destroy large areas and the orcs out number both of them by a huge margin.

Several naaru converging on a world and pouring massive energies into it? Possibly.

I mean it’s possible but there’s just no precedent for it any where in wow.

Like Azeroth has had Elune pumping light into it forever had the humans take up the light on mass, had the sun well relit with the light, had the goats bring a bunch of Narru and then the light forged show up, place is absolutely crawling in the light with no negative effects.

Hell even having multiple old gods corrupting the world doesn’t actually kill the planet so why would the Narru.

[The Stormbringer]

I disagree. I think Yrel dying for her beliefs would be a fitting end to her tragic story.

But... but... how am I supposed to have my space-goat waifu if they kill her off?!

[Teriz]

we don’t actually know what the world “dying” means for all we know the orcs were mass polluting water ways like the goblins, pumping mass smog into the are killing birds and what not and clear cutting forest.

The goblins and gnomes have been able to destroy large areas and the orcs out number both of them by a huge margin.

I mean it’s possible but there’s just no precedent for it any where in wow.

Like Azeroth has had Elune pumping light into it forever had the humans take up the light on mass, had the sun well relit with the light, had the goats bring a bunch of Narru and then the light forged show up, place is absolutely crawling in the light with no negative effects.

Hell even having multiple old gods corrupting the world doesn’t actually kill the planet so why would the Narru.

And it could very well be that neither side are actually killing the planet. The lore speculates that Draenor could actually be dying because of the time traveling that Garrosh did back in WoD with Kairoz.

Either way, it doesn't justify the genocide done by the Draenei on AU Draenor.

[Ielenia]

The Burning Legion and the Old Gods have a side too. Doesn't make them any less evil.

Uh, no. We had several sides. We had the orcs' side, the night elves' side, the draenei's side, the Titans' side, etc.

Again, which is why Yrel having a "side" is irrelelvant to the fact that she's doing evil stuff.

Except it is very relevant for your claim that "it's a fact she's doing evil stuff".

It makes perfect sense given what we saw during BFA.

Again, it doesn't, because we have only one side of the story, and an incomplete side at best. We have no context. For all we know, the orcs could've broken their peace first, or started to go back to their days of waging war, etc, which could've forced the draenei's hands to avoid another war. Also, we have no actual evidence of "forced conversion" aside from a claim without evidence from one of the Mag'har.

You need to play the scenario again. Yrel herself rolled up in the presence of the Horde Champion (aka the player) and gave the Orcs the ultimatum to surrender to the light or be eradicated. So no, it isn't just a Mag'har claim, we witnessed it ourselves.

You can't "play it again", but I watched the video of the entire quest chain. This is what she says:
Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."
Yrel: "Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation."
Yrel: "It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way."

Not to mention it's the so-called "evil side" that says "stop this bloodshed", while the "oppressed side" is the one that says "I want another exarch head to mount on my wall":

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And it could very well be that neither side are actually killing the planet. The lore speculates that Draenor could actually be dying because of the time traveling that Garrosh did back in WoD with Kairoz.

Either way, it doesn't justify the genocide done by the Draenei on AU Draenor.

It could be the timeline just falling apart which would put the goats in the wrong but if the orcs were destroying the planet making them change there ways or stoping them by force would be perfectly justified just like opposing the legion is.

[Ielenia]

Ruins the world to the point where the entire planet would begin to die? Doubtful.

Several naaru converging on a world and pouring massive energies into it? Possibly.

"Ruins the world to the point where the entire planet would begin to die" is just as doubtful as your claim about "several naaru converging on a world to pour massive energies into it."

Arguably, your claim about the naaru is even more doubtful considering we have no evidence of the Naaru doing exactly that in the recruitment scenario since we see no Naaru doing that in the final siege, but we know that the orcs' industrialization does ruin the land.

I disagree. I think Yrel dying for her beliefs would be a fitting end to her tragic story.

As "fitting" (and I'd use a lot of quotes here) as Arthas' "fitting end" in Shadowlands.

- - - Updated - - -

Brennadam was a list minute change in the beta. Quillboars were supposed to be the ones to invade, however due to a feedback of "lack of faction war" in the story, they changed it hastily. There's also a problem of Blizzard changing the story depending on which faction does the quest.

Well, independently if this was planned from the beginning, or a last minute addition, the point is that this is part of the lore now, unfortunately.

- - - Updated - - -

Either way, it doesn't justify the genocide done by the Draenei on AU Draenor.

Except... is there any actual evidence of genocide?

[CopyX1982]

Did I just wade through several pages of people bickering about lore again? I think I did.

Why exactly ARE you all arguing about Yrel? I literally couldn't be assed to read it all.

Blizzcon is gonna be very intriguing though, WoW is on such a good roll right now.

[Darkarath]

That is literally the case of the death knight as I explained: Frost and Unholy were no longer tank specs, changing their role completely and Blood was no longer a DPS spec, changing its role completely.

Again, not comparable IMO, as Unholy and Frost were also DPS specs, and with the old talent system many crazy stuff was allowed. Hybrid classes were kind of a thing back then. Nowadays, as I have explained, Blizzard would be pissing off a portion of the playerbase for no reason at all.

To this day, there has not been in WoW a spec that changed its role (DPS, Tank, Healer) completely. They have certainly been changed in many ways, though.

[Nightshade711]

You can't "play it again", but I watched the video of the entire quest chain. This is what she says:
Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."
Yrel: "Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation."
Yrel: "It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way."

Not to mention it's the so-called "evil side" that says "stop this bloodshed", while the "oppressed side" is the one that says "I want another exarch head to mount on my wall":

Damn I forgot about some of that.
If that’s the case then the Draenei do have justification for everything.

The fact that they’re actually sparing the Orcs allowing some to convert instead of just slaughtering them all in spite of everything that the Orcs have done is interesting.

(Especially after WoD when the Orcs should’ve been irredeemable)

[Ielenia]

Again, not comparable IMO, as Unholy and Frost were also DPS specs,

That's not he point, though. The point is that there were those who played those specs for those specific roles (blood DPS, and frost and unholy tanking) which suddenly were forced to either switch roles, or switch specs.

[Darkarath]

That's not he point, though. The point is that there were those who played those specs for those specific roles (blood DPS, and frost and unholy tanking) which suddenly were forced to either switch roles, or switch specs.

Well, I think that the situation is not comparable, honestly, but I understand your point of view. I mean people played Retribution Paladin as an offtank in the old days, but It has always been a DPS spec.

What is relevant here is that if in 11.0 Blizzard changes current DPS specs to support ones, It would get a lot of hate. Unnecessary confrontation with your playerbase when they can create new specs and hype everyone.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

You can't "play it again", but I watched the video of the entire quest chain. This is what she says:
Yrel: "I have come to offer you one last chance to embrace the Light."
Yrel: "Your people are choking the life from this world... dooming the land to desiccation."
Yrel: "It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash. But... very well. We will settle this your way."

Not to mention it's the so-called "evil side" that says "stop this bloodshed", while the "oppressed side" is the one that says "I want another exarch head to mount on my wall":

I mean it can simply mean that during or since the conflict that Yrel and the light crusade started, some exarch's heads were already taken, and gerayah being mad says that after hearing that the High Exarch herself appeared.

This conflict doesn't happen when we just get there, a lot of orcs could already be tortured and killed if they didn't join the light.

She speaks about the land, but she doesn't care about the land, she cares only about converting to the light itself and crusade that she leads, why would orcs converting to light solve the land from its self destruction?


Still the thread derailed to lore land, so i end my pov on that with this post.