Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

And again, if you're affliction and you love affliction, and you wanted to summon a pitlord?
What then?
This is the main point I'm trying to make. The system locks asked for class-fantasies behind gameplay mechanics.

You were never gonna be able to summon a pitlord as affliction. They're totally different "fantacies" but a warlock player will still be able to do both by the flip a a switch... the "change spec" button.

[Echil46]

Here's a story for you.
There was once a lock who wasn't a Night Fae. He signed up for a m+, they did it in time and nobody said shit.
THE END

That story is true in 99% of cases (if you know how to play your class).
And if you want to push to the extreme, you won't care about fantasy anyway, because every little detail of your spec is already predetermined.

I don't recall using any condescending tone in whaterver i said. I'm sharing, and discussing. Now if you're not open to discussion and wanna just say "there it is, the end, discussion is over" then so be it. I mean, i think you're wrong to assume it doesn't matter just because you havn't encountered it much. I disagree, and that's fine if we have different opinions. Just don't go all "that's what it is, discussion over, and anyway, if i'm wrong that's because you can't play your class".

I think it's wishful thinking to say meta doesn't matter, quite the opposite. From the hundred apply you get when you create a group in M+, you will pick those you think are better, or fit better. And meta play its role in it.

[Makorus]

And again, if you're affliction and you love affliction, and you wanted to summon a pitlord?
What then?
This is the main point I'm trying to make. The system locks asked for class-fantasies behind gameplay mechanics.

I don't know if you think you have a point, because you don't?

There was no reality where they would add a talent to let you summon a Pitlord as Aff, and Hero Talents existing didn't really stop that from happening either.

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I don't recall using any condescending tone in whaterver i said. I'm sharing, and discussing. Now if you're not open to discussion and wanna just say "there it is, the end, discussion is over" then so be it. I mean, i think you're wrong to assume it doesn't matter just because you havn't encountered it much. I disagree, and that's fine if we have different opinions. Just don't go all "that's what it is, discussion over, and anyway, if i'm wrong that's because you can't play your class".

I think it's wishful thinking to say meta doesn't matter, quite the opposite. From the hundred apply you get when you create a group in M+, you will pick those you think are better, or fit better. And meta play its role in it.

Sure, but Meta doesn't really apply to the key levels of the majority of the people who are complaining right now.
And for the people where it does matter, they've already come to terms with the fact that you can't use all the talents you want to use, sadly.
People here are acting like you are gonna get kicked out of LFR or a Heroic Dungeon for picking the option thats 0.5% worse lmao

[Villager720]

So not being able to pick a talent that summons a pit lord when its a normal talent = good

Not being able to pick a talent that summons a pit lord when its a hero talent = bad

Gotcha.

Perhaps the pit lord talent analogy wasn't the best; so, fair.
What I've been trying to note though is that many hero talents prevent full classes from having access to asked for class fantasies and potentially make players feel "forced" into a fantasy they don't gel with for the meta.
We can argue in circles about the nuances of "but other existing talents work similarly", but those are just one spell or talent at the end of the day.

These new Hero Specs are labeled "Far Seer", "Dark Ranger", "San'layn" and are being sold to players as "play these heroes!". My concern is that players won't get what they wanted (for the myriad of reasons I've now noted previously) and it'll be a drag on expansion morale.

Maybe I'm wrong. Guess we'll have to see.
But look at the chatter around hero talents thus far, and it hasn't been awesome. I recall similar concerns about Covenants and those concerns being disregarded and labeled "doom-saying" or from "the complainer class of players".
I hope we're wrong this time.

[Tartys]

That's pretty much why I think it's a fake out. It's too much exactly what Ronin did. Khadgar is gonna teleport everyone to safety & leave himself behind, then Dalaran crashes & everyone assumes he's dead only so he can Gandalf the White at some point later into the Saga.

I hope so, but also look like as Khadgar a sacrife like that... but I will not surprise if he left an hologram, something like Sindragosa did, that can help us/guide us...

At the end of Shadowlands he sound like he was at the end of his life...

[Makorus]

Perhaps the pit lord talent analogy wasn't the best; so, fair.
What I've been trying to note though is that many hero talents prevent full classes from having access to asked for class fantasies and potentially make players feel "forced" into a fantasy they don't give with for the meta. We can argue in circles about the nuances of "but other existing talents work similarly", but those are just one spell or talent at the end of the day.
These new Hero Specs are labeled "Far Seer", "Dark Ranger", "San'layn" and are being sold to players as "play these heroes!". My concern is that players won't get what they wanted (for the myriad of reasons I've now noted previously) and it'll be a drag on expansion morale.
Maybe I'm wrong. Guess we'll have to see.
But look at the chatter around hero talents thus far, and it hasn't been awesome.

But would it be any different if, for example, they added the "Riptide spawns a Farseer that copies your abilities" talent to Resto? I mean, Holy already has a talent like that with Naaru, is that okay?

I think people are just getting a bit hung up on the names more than anything.

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I hope so, but also look like as Khadgar a sacrife like that... but I will not surprise if he left an hologram, something like Sindragosa did, that can help us/guide us...

At the end of Shadowlands he sound like he was at the end of his life...

Yeah, his appearance in Shadowlands was pretty much: "Damn, cool, the Shadowlands, epic to see this before I will die very soon(TM)"

[Villager720]

But would it be any different if, for example, they added the "Riptide spawns a Farseer that copies your abilities" talent to Resto? I mean, Holy already has a talent like that with Naaru, is that okay?

I think people are just getting a bit hung up on the names more than anything.

Maybe! But I think that an issue that comes from Blizzard shouting "Play a Dark Ranger!".
/shrug

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Yeah, his appearance in Shadowlands was pretty much: "Damn, cool, the Shadowlands, epic to see this before I will die very soon(TM)"

I kinda assumed we'd see him interact with Medivh again before he died, per their exchange in Kara 2.0.
It'll feel kinda weird if we don't ever get that.

[Rageonit]

I don't recall using any condescending tone in whaterver i said. I'm sharing, and discussing. Now if you're not open to discussion and wanna just say "there it is, the end, discussion is over" then so be it. I mean, i think you're wrong to assume it doesn't matter just because you havn't encountered it much. I disagree, and that's fine if we have different opinions. Just don't go all "that's what it is, discussion over, and anyway, if i'm wrong that's because you can't play your class".

I think it's wishful thinking to say meta doesn't matter, quite the opposite. From the hundred apply you get when you create a group in M+, you will pick those you think are better, or fit better. And meta play its role in it.

I guess this tone happens after the same exact discussion happens over and over and over. Maybe I had it too many times.
I do hundreds (sometimes dozens) of M+ runs every season and here are a few facts of life for 99% of random group invites:
- if anything matters, it's your class, nothing else; if people hear "DH is the best tank this season", anything purple will get an instant invite;
- nobody ever checks your spec or talents; most people don't check anything other than: colour of your class (helps if it's meta) and your score;
- if you're meticulous and want to know who you're inviting, you open raider.io and check parses. Parses good = invite, and still nobody cares about your spec, talents, covenants or whatever.

Hero Talents will mean fuck all for invites. If hunter is meta and if mage is meta - and you play, dunno, a druid - you will have to reroll your class to have it easy. Because everything green and light blue will get an instant invite, and you won't. That's how meta works for most people. Why? Because they don't know anything about classes & how to play them - they just hear "hunter good".

[Makorus]

Maybe! But I think that an issue that comes from Blizzard shouting "Play a Dark Ranger!".
/shrug

I think the issue is Dark Ranger rather than the system. Dark Ranger is just too big of a thing, and there's a reason that's the only example people ever use. It shouldn't have been a hero talent.

[Villager720]

I think the issue is Dark Ranger rather than the system. Dark Ranger is just too big of a thing, and there's a reason that's the only example people ever use. It shouldn't have been a hero talent.

Absolutely, it is by far the most egregious. But there are others that also feel sort of "racial" like Sentinel and Mountain Thane.
Imagine a world where a vulpera or nightborne or troll or blood elf warrior has the aesthetics of a dwarven Mountain King. Cause we're barreling toward it.

[Enrif]

Naaru are the titan keepers for Light.

since when? Naaru are not titan keepers.

Besides, we know that elune is above naaru in hierarchy. calling her a naaru isn't wrong until we know her actual status. for all she could be a light lord (as opposed to the void lords). Naaru is still a good way to call it until proven what she is.

[Murlocos]

I've said my piece on hero talents before, so I'll just say that the new push for battlegrounds as the mainstay of rated PvP makes me hope they reevaluate their stance of PvP optics being a primary roadblock against more variety in class cosmetic options. The impact of spell recognition is a lot less pronounced in an 8v8 objective game than it is in a 3v3 one-life deathmatch.

[Villager720]

since when? Naaru are not titan keepers.

Besides, we know that elune is above naaru in hierarchy. calling her a naaru isn't wrong until we know her actual status. for all she could be a light lord (as opposed to the void lords). Naaru is still a good way to call it until proven what she is.

Agree on the "Naaru are not titanic". Dunno where that notion came from.
But, we really think Eonar started a close relationship with a "mega-naaru" and became devoted to life?

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I've said my piece on hero talents before, so I'll just say that the new push for battlegrounds as the mainstay of rated PvP makes me hope they reevaluate their stance of PvP optics being a primary roadblock against more variety in class cosmetic options. The impact of spell recognition is a lot less pronounced in an 8v8 objective game than it is in a 3v3 one-life deathmatch.

Honestly, just as they tune spells separately now for pvp/pve, they should consider "standardizing" spell visuals in pvp.
If I want to rock green fire as a warlock, itll look green to me - but in pvp everyone else sees it as the standard red. Solves this cosmetic issue really quickly imo.

[Makorus]

I've said my piece on hero talents before, so I'll just say that the new push for battlegrounds as the mainstay of rated PvP makes me hope they reevaluate their stance of PvP optics being a primary roadblock against more variety in class cosmetic options. The impact of spell recognition is a lot less pronounced in an 8v8 objective game than it is in a 3v3 one-life deathmatch.

Just do what every other MMO with a PvP mode does and add an option that replaces all the models with generic models. And it's not like Blizzard can't do it, because there's literally toys that change the appearances of other people. Add a dude in the little room before the match starts that puts an effect on you.

[Murlocos]

Honestly, just as they tune spells separately now for pvp/pve, they should consider "standardizing" spell visuals in pvp.
If I want to rock green fire as a warlock, itll look green to me - but in pvp everyone else sees it as the standard red. Solves this cosmetic issue really quickly imo.

That's the obvious solution and why I think it's just a strained cover for them not wanting to expend art resources on it. Similar to how lore and story concerns are suddenly a primary reason for them halting new race/class combos as soon as they got to the ones that required a lot more art assets.

I hope that all of the hubbub over hero talents helps them realize how popular the demand for this is.

[Echil46]

I guess this tone happens after the same exact discussion happens over and over and over. Maybe I had it too many times.
I do hundreds (sometimes dozens) of M+ runs every season and here are a few facts of life for 99% of random group invites:
- if anything matters, it's your class, nothing else; if people hear "DH is the best tank this season", anything purple will get an instant invite;
- nobody ever checks your spec or talents; most people don't check anything other than: colour of your class (helps if it's meta) and your score;
- if you're meticulous and want to know who you're inviting, you open raider.io and check parses. Parses good = invite, and still nobody cares about your spec, talents, covenants or whatever.

Hero Talents will mean fuck all for invites. If hunter is meta and if mage is meta - and you play, dunno, a druid - you will have to reroll your class to have it easy. Because everything green and light blue will get an instant invite, and you won't. That's how meta works for most people. Why? Because they don't know anything about classes & how to play them - they just hear "hunter good".

I understand. And i agree, a lot of the players don't care enough to look at your spec before they invite you. But i've played enough feral / survival / frost 2h / arms / Elem or Assa to have had my fair share of "can you go the meta spec", even in +15. Even if its a more subtle "oh, you're playing arms ? " or "hey, can i have the innerv" when cats didn't have them in Nathria. That's surreal to have meta slaves, even more at that level of keys. So saying the meta isn't a big factor in some part of the game is false, because at some level the meta is ALL people have, because they're not good enough players, nor do they have enough experience to judge things by themselve.

But the real issue, i suppose and that was talked a lot before, is how they're linking player power to class fantasy. I "should" be able to summon a pit lord, see my dmg increase a lot because of it, and not seeing the dude next to me summoning a snail do 5% more damage with a much lesser complex rotation.

It's like, i love playing shaman enhance, but if a fury war can be more successful doing less, i feel bad. Regardless of how much i like the spec, it kinda feel bad.

[Ersula]

Elune is god tied to life plane.

Naaru are the titan keepers for Light.

You mean titans. The keepers work for the Titans. The cosmology used a picture of Xe'ra & Norgannon to represent the sphere of light & order respectively.

Though I would point out there is a lot of overlap between light & life. Or say, apparently the Eternal Ones are also Titans, or at least The Primus is.

[Cheezits]

Ironically the dark ranger thing is an actual issue as it is a Sylvanas thing, and the higher ups mandate sylvanas because she prints money, so despite it being the number one issue to players it likely won't go away.

It is still not as bad as Covenants because those locked your zone, quest, mounts and armor. This is just a spell and undead dogs.

[Rageonit]

I understand. And i agree, a lot of the players don't care enough to look at your spec before they invite you. But i've played enough feral / survival / frost 2h / arms / Elem or Assa to have had my fair share of "can you go the meta spec", even in +15. Even if its a more subtle "oh, you're playing arms ? " or "hey, can i have the innerv" when cats didn't have them in Nathria. That's surreal to have meta slaves, even more at that level of keys. So saying the meta isn't a big factor in some part of the game is false, because at some level the meta is ALL people have, because they're not good enough players, nor do they have enough experience to judge things by themselve.

I mean, it's as big of an issue as you make it. "Oh, you're playing arms?" is an innocent question, and "Hey, can I have innerv" may simply mean that they didn't know the cat doesn't have it. If you read more into it, than you're probably... reading too much. Besides, it's your chance to prove them wrong and show that arms, too, can do the job.

Every player who succumbs to the meta is at fault that the meta is so widespread. More often than not, the "wrong spec" will be played by a new player (who may not even know what the meta is), and since they are probably guaranteed to do worse, it enforces the idea of "bad specs" (even though the very same spec would do well in proper hands - probably better than most meta specs in the wrong hands).

Long story short, every time you change your spec, talents or covenant just because some asshole is snarky about, you reinforce the meta slavery.

[allegrian]

How will LFR work during DF's season 4? Will we get LFR for a different raid each week?