Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Btw is this PTR particularly slow moving?

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I don't want to downplay how much effort went into it, but my primary issue with the Cata revamp is how inconsistent it was. The amount of effort that went into each zone both on geographical and questing levels, as well as their stories was so all over the place that I struggle to call it a full revamp. And yeah, Cata being the expansion where the narrative team and the quest designers just seemingly wanted to take the piss out of the story and throw in a bunch of silly references and jokes drag it down even further. The human zones are a perfect example of how messy it all is:

Elwynn: Aside from minor QoL changes to have you run back and forth across the zone less, it's basically just the vanilla version. Same geography, same quests, same enemies, the plot hasn't actually advanced at all from vanilla.
Westfall: Major changes across the board, questing is totally different and reflects the post-Wrath world. There are joke characters, but the overall story is serious.
Redridge: The meme bridge is fixed, but aside from that it's just a remix of the vanilla version. You're fighting the exact same enemies as before as if they were never dealt with, and the second half of the zone devolves into entire chunks of the Rambo script being copy-pasted. Calling it a Rambo reference downplays how lazy they got.
Duskwood: Geography is unchanged, questing and storylines are more or less the same aside from some updated worgen story.

Expectations and environment were absolutely a lot different when this content was being made, but I think these days there's more appetite for total change. We don't need to see Hogger get fought outside Westbrook Garrison again or having to fight the same elite orc and gnoll enemies in Redridge. A lot of the changed zones were just remixes rather than actually advancing the storyline there.

And let's face it, a massive difference in quality between Horde and Alliance questing. Cata Horde got some of the best zone storylines WoW has ever had.

[Varodoc]

With Dragonriding in the Old World, the Old World Revamp is now all but guaranteed, as I predicted.

Blizzard never updated Quel'Thalas and Draenei isles in Cataclysm, now they can rectify that mistake.

In Quel'Thalas, we will see the continuation of the conflict of ideology and methods between the Ren'dorei/Quel'dorei and the Sin'dorei.

In the Kingdom of Stormwind, we will see how the kingdom has been flourishing and prospering under Regent Turalyon's reign.

[Chickat]

You know I'd like to say so much more about this BUT this is ENTIRELY a lore discussion and not a future content discussion.

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Really they are going into Blizzcon with the Overwatch 2 disaster over their heads. And it absolutely is a disaster and they lied to our faces about it when they launched OW2 telling us it would have PvE when they had already decided the version of PvE promised would be killed.

Which is why they need at least one of their products to have something major to sell. I am hoping for WoW to have big news. I'll say it again, the next expac is likely to release during the 20th/30th anniversary. Part of me will always hope for Revamp which imo is the only thing BIG enough to show that the franchise has decades forward except for maybe Housing. But if it is not Revamp and it is just another "4-5 zones, 8 dungeons, 1 raid with 8-10 bosses" they don't need a convention for that.

HS just is not likely to have anything else than more of the same. HotS is dead. The Survival game is likely still way off. Arclight Rumble might be fun but the Blizzcon crowd is not the target audience. So they have WoW and Diablo 4. It IS possible that we get a Diablo 4 expansion reveal

I definitely think the Survival game is far along enough to at least show something. Even if its 3 years away, they have shown stuff that far off before.

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World revamp has the chance of crashing and burning harder than anything else if they lose the manpower to deliver it mid development.

Meh expansion is just meh expansion.

Meh EK and Kalimdor is meh game forever.

WoW needs big risks now more than ever. They wont win people over by having more of the same. I think the risk that its bad is worth it.

[Marlamin]

Btw is this PTR particularly slow moving?

Seems to be pretty bleeding-edge compared to what we usually get (which the kalimdor cup feedback blue post implying the same), so it might feel a bit slower but there's definitely a bunch of stuff being worked that aren't ready for testing just yet.

[Nymrohd]

Seems to be pretty bleeding-edge compared to what we usually get (which the kalimdor cup feedback blue post implying the same), so it might feel a bit slower but there's definitely a bunch of stuff being worked that aren't ready for testing just yet.

Yeah I expected it to be slow especially because of Augmentation but the dragonriding absolutely could have contributed to this. And the rifts seem to be fairly major if just because of the variety.

[Khaza-R]

I don't want to downplay how much effort went into it, but my primary issue with the Cata revamp is how inconsistent it was. The amount of effort that went into each zone both on geographical and questing levels, as well as their stories was so all over the place that I struggle to call it a full revamp. And yeah, Cata being the expansion where the narrative team and the quest designers just seemingly wanted to take the piss out of the story and throw in a bunch of silly references and jokes drag it down even further. The human zones are a perfect example of how messy it all is:

Elwynn: Aside from minor QoL changes to have you run back and forth across the zone less, it's basically just the vanilla version. Same geography, same quests, same enemies, the plot hasn't actually advanced at all from vanilla.
Westfall: Major changes across the board, questing is totally different and reflects the post-Wrath world. There are joke characters, but the overall story is serious.
Redridge: The meme bridge is fixed, but aside from that it's just a remix of the vanilla version. You're fighting the exact same enemies as before as if they were never dealt with, and the second half of the zone devolves into entire chunks of the Rambo script being copy-pasted. Calling it a Rambo reference downplays how lazy they got.
Duskwood: Geography is unchanged, questing and storylines are more or less the same aside from some updated worgen story.

Expectations and environment were absolutely a lot different when this content was being made, but I think these days there's more appetite for total change. We don't need to see Hogger get fought outside Westbrook Garrison again or having to fight the same elite orc and gnoll enemies in Redridge. A lot of the changed zones were just remixes rather than actually advancing the storyline there.

The idea behind Cataclysm was noble but as an endeavor it was a total failure.

Some zones advanced drastically, while others as you mentioned were just a re-telling of the vanilla storyline. Advancing the story was a fine idea but it required continual commitment. Haphazardly adding conflict to many zones and then never resolving it was a terrible idea in retrospect.

[Darkarath]

I really do not understand why people think that Dragonriding in old continents equals world revamp. IMO it guarantees that the world revamp will not happen, or that if it happens, it would be in a new map.

Is Outland getting revamped because it will have Dragonriding? No.

Why they would bother to do new races if they are going to revamp the zones? They would have to do new ones because there would be terrain changes that would affect the old ones. We could argue that they would do even more races for the new revamped zones, but I think that if that were to be the case they would just wait and do one set of races.

Draenor was made from scratch because they learned their lesson with Cataclysm. It is better to do something from zero. In such a way, you are not limited by past constrains (the amount of regions, their size, old quests that get messed up by phasing, confusion in general for players...). Blizzard will not erase old content again. In fact, they are reintroducing old content, as we have seen with Zul'Gurub and Naxxramas.

[Luck4]

When all is said and done Dragonflight will be remembered as one of WoW's best expansions. Haters be damned!

I already think Dragonflight is on par with WOTLK, LEGION, and MOP, but I'm waiting for it to be finished to praise it.

We never know when Blizzard will screw things up.

[Makabreska]

I really do not understand why people think that Dragonriding in old continents equals world revamp. IMO it guarantees that the world revamp will not happen, or that if it happens, it would be in a new map.

Cuz they keep saying that you need to change the old zones to accommodate DRing, conveniently forgetting that Dragon Isles have this big ass flat place called Ohn'ahran Plains, and you can DR there no probs.

[Luck4]

Seeing all this talk surrounding a World Revamp fills my heart with joy. I'm glad so many people here like this idea.

I'm in all for any Revamp at this point.

[Darkarath]

I already think Dragonflight is on par with WOTLK, LEGION, and MOP, but I'm waiting for it to be finished to praise it.

We never know when Blizzard will screw things up.

If they keep up the pace DF will be the best expansion, no question here. You can like or dislike the theme, but if you look at the amount and cadence of content, its quality, the amount of new stuff that they are trying... nothing comes even close, not even MoP. The key would be, at least for me, that we have a good 10.3 and an amazing 10.2.

10.2 needs to have a better zone than 10.1, a better raid, and what is more important, a new system or a revamped evergreen system. I believe that a new Timewalking evergreen system is in the works, and we have, of course, the Archeology revamp, which can be so much more than what it is. We will also have a new Brawler's Guild evergreen system, as Ion stated himself, but I do not see that as an important system unless they alter it greatly.

[Marlamin]

Based on things we've seen leak through the cracks over the last few expansions, the "revamp" I'm expecting at some point is them replacing a lot of the older models throughout the old world as well as updating terrain textures to not look as bad compared to modern terrain textures. Not expecting them to actively change any terrain geometry to the point where any dragon races they make now would no longer work. Happy to be proven wrong with a more involved revamp though, but haven't seen anything to support that just yet.

Cuz they keep saying that you need to change the old zones to accommodate DRing, conveniently forgetting that Dragon Isles have this big ass flat place called Ohn'ahran Plains, and you can DR there no probs.

There is truth to this, but it's not as involved as people think. Think about stuff like raising some ceilings here and there (some of them you easily hit with the current flying mounts even) as well as dealing with invisible walls/dismount zones better as dragonriding has far more inertia than any other movement thing in the old world had before.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Ohn'ahran Plains

Visually is one of the better places in the zones minus some of the mountains. I guess a flat green plains zone makes me happy.

Is Outland getting revamped because it will have Dragonriding? No.

True I don't think it matters in terms or revamp at all. Having said that, outside of us here how big is the revamp desire anyways.

[Khaza-R]

Blizzard is super modular in how they approach expansion features to begin with. DF added to old zones does mean much.

Even more so, the fact they are adding it to content like Outland that will likely never be updated is a sign its very much just meant to be a DF exclusive feature.

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Based on things we've seen leak through the cracks over the last few expansions, the "revamp" I'm expecting at some point is them replacing a lot of the older models throughout the old world as well as updating terrain textures to not look as bad compared to modern terrain textures. Not expecting them to actively change any terrain geometry to the point where any dragon races they make now would no longer work. Happy to be proven wrong with a more involved revamp though, but haven't seen anything to support that just yet.

I am absolutely no expert in this area but I imagine the real reason we see lot of asset updates is because the developers see it as a two for one deal. Meaning it has to have a current application to be worked on in the first place. In my opinion it why we don't see more specific but more impactful things like skyboxes being updated.

[Sondrelk]

Based on things we've seen leak through the cracks over the last few expansions, the "revamp" I'm expecting at some point is them replacing a lot of the older models throughout the old world as well as updating terrain textures to not look as bad compared to modern terrain textures. Not expecting them to actively change any terrain geometry to the point where any dragon races they make now would no longer work. Happy to be proven wrong with a more involved revamp though, but haven't seen anything to support that just yet.



There is truth to this, but it's not as involved as people think. Think about stuff like raising some ceilings here and there (some of them you easily hit with the current flying mounts even) as well as dealing with invisible walls/dismount zones better as dragonriding has far more inertia than any other movement thing in the old world had before.

I still stand by my old idea of just removing the old mountain barriers between certain zones. A new coat of paint in the form of better skyboxes, texture maps, and NPC models can do absolute wonders for even zones that looked horrid, like what we saw in BfA changing Darkshore.

Needing massive verticality for Dragonriding is certainly nice. And Dragonflight has definitely shown to have a great zone built around dragonriding. Though even with that it is really just Waking Shores. Thaldraszus is certainly also a good example of verticality, but nothing that really shows off the potential of Dragonriding. Ohn'ahran plains meanwhile is an actual plain, and Azure Span is basically just as flat, except tilted at a slight angle.

In the old world we don't have as much sheer verticality as we do in the Dragon Isles, but we do still have areas like Hyjal, Dun Murogh/Wetlands, and lest we forget Thousand Needles. That all effectively have a similar feel to zones made with Dragonriding in mind. All they really lack is the detail and size. Detail being part of the new coat of paint, and size being easily solved by simply merging zones into bigger ones with removing the mountain barriers.

[Marlamin]

Blizzard is super modular in how they approach expansion features to begin with. DF added to old zones does mean much.

Even more so, the fact they are adding it to content like Outland that will likely never be updated is a sign its very much just meant to be a DF exclusive feature.

While historically true, I'm expecting dragonriding in some form to keep existing going forward in 11.0 and beyond. A lot of work went into the system and they generally don't really drop systems, almost all systems we've historically had have lasted at least several expansions, some of which still around in some form today. Also....

[Chickat]

-New WoW expansion
-10.2 preview
-New HS expansion
-New Overwatch 2 Hero
-New Diablo 4 patch
-Surprise announcement

I think that could be a solid show.

10.2 will be out before Blizzcon, or very far into testing. If there is any patch content reveal it will be 10.3.

[Khaza-R]

While historically true, I'm expecting dragonriding in some form to keep existing going forward in 11.0 and beyond. A lot of work went into the system and they generally don't really drop systems, almost all systems we've historically had have lasted at least several expansions, some of which still around in some form today.Also....

Well that last tidbit is super juicy for future speculation. Thanks as always parrot friend.

While a revamp might not be imminent. Its also very possible the cataclysm maps will be concurrently available with the new content as well.

[Marlamin]

Well that last tidbit is super juicy for future speculation.

There's nothing juicy behind it at the minute, so it just means that 11.0 will (probably) have races in some shape/form which seems like a given.

[Chickat]

How do people see Avaloren going down once we go there?

Will it be a Greco-Roman inspired land?

Camelot inspired with WoW’s take on King Arthur, Excalibur, Holy Grail, Merlin, Morgan Le Fay?

A strictly advanced civilisation with a huge focus on titan architecture?

A wild, unkept wilderness?

Do you all see Khaz Algar being here or do you think that’s elsewhere? Under the Eastern Kingdoms?

Completely new races here that we’ve never been exposed to? Or much of the same we’ve already had.

The idea of Avaloren is one of the most exciting we’ve had in a while.

I think Avaloren would be the perfect opportunity to introduce a WoW variant of the Altmer from Elder Scrolls. Not necessarily an Elvish race, but a race of highly advanced beings, that are a lot more advanced and powerful than the current playable races, of which they look down on and seek to impose their laws and religion upon them.

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I see the announcement of Classic+ being here, and treated like a huge deal.

I would love an old world revamp in the style of what I outlined in an earlier post. Sadly, I don’t see it happening. I think both Tel’Abim or Avaloren are what’s likely, and I’d be happy with either.

It is the big WoW anniversary the following year, so either 2023 or 2024 blizzcon would make sense to have a big Warcraft announcement, or a few medium sized ones.