Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Plehnard]

Thrall looks super derpy in the short stories cover lol

Thrall got fat. Did he do a vacation in Kul'Tiras?
Alleria looks like an 80's pop band singer

[Hitei]

The overhype of Azsharah from some is always interesting to me. Shes done pretty much nothing in the lore to warrant being the top dog villain for the entire next "phase" of the franchise.

Being the literal queen of the world and personally responsible for probably the most significant event in the history of the planet... wasn't enough to warrant being a big villain?

[Jolly Roger]

i wonder if the emperor is supposed to be the replacement for light jihadi Turalyon. his overworked dad portrayal in the short story is completely incompatible with zealotry.
Yrel's Army needs a local supporter, but Turalyon won't do it.

so there is a storyline that has been slowly building
you have to pay attention to little things like a line of dialogue or specific pamphlets and wording BUT
the scarlet crusade is still alive and they will definitely try to align themselves with a light based empire

we still have calia meeting the fake heir they have
we still have the real identity of the menethil heir to be revealed

lets go on the final crusade

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The overhype of Azsharah from some is always interesting to me. Shes done pretty much nothing in the lore to warrant being the top dog villain for the entire next "phase" of the franchise. I feel like people still overhype her bc of a 10+ year old Knaak book. But every time she actually appeared in the game, she talked big talk, got soundly beaten and then ran off.

in game Jaina even called her the strongest sorceror on the planet
we only beat her because we had the power of a god

[Houle]

I can’t speak for the Knaak book as I’ve never read it. I can only speak for what I know, which is I find her incredibly interesting as far as Warcraft characters goes, she’s extremely charismatic, she feels like a more personal villain, and there’s layers to her character.

She’s infinitely more appealing as the primary antagonist as opposed to the god like entities such as Sargeras, Zovaal, the Void Lords etc. if that’s the kind of villain you’re into, then more power to you but it’s not what I’m after.

Oh no, in itself i would agree but...i dont see how her character is particularly layered or complex? Like, at all. Shes written as a typical by-the-book narcissist, with basically zero other character traits shown so far. Thats not a complex character. So far, shes got not mcuh more depth than Archimonde.

Being the literal queen of the world and personally responsible for probably the most significant event in the history of the planet... wasn't enough to warrant being a big villain?

"Big villain" doesnt equal "Main villain of the franchise". Shes a significant villain, no doubt. New "Sargeras-type" main villain? Nah.

And attributing the sundering solely to her is simply not accurate. She was part of why it happened, yes, but Sargeras, Neltharion, N'zoth and many others contributed to it just as much, if not more. Shes not the singular character most responsible for it.

in game Jaina even called her the strongest sorceror on the planet
we only beat her because we had the power of a god

Thats pretty much irrelevant.
We only beat the LK bc Tyrion got suddenly Light-boosted. We only beat Neltharion bc of the other aspects and the Dragon Soul. We only beat Archimonde bc Khadgar, Grom, Yrel and the combined armies of the Horde and Alliance were helping out. We only beat Kil bc Illidan, Velen and Khadgar were helping out. That argument can be made for A LOT of previous villains. Doesnt mean they are qualified to be the new big main villain of the franchise.

[Jolly Roger]

The whispers had several red herrings, though.

Azeroth has also been described as having died twice too. Can't remember where, but it was Xal'atath saying something like: "The Sundering, the Scouring, this world has seen so much upheaval".

yeah but then we found that she already died 3 times

the whispers are constantly shown to have connections to something we come up on and ppl keep denying them
the heart being a crater that was filled is also something that you can say fits multiple characters but you must use information we have now to see what can be the answers

jaina: theramore bomb was a crater but she didnt die 3 times
aszhara: heart line doesnt fit and she didnt die in palace
alleria: heart line DIDNT fit but she mentioned dying twice before
Xal: we know very little of her history
azeroth: crater line can fit but she ahs already died three times

with Alleria the reason the heart is a crater line now works is because we know that because she is essentially a void creature now that she harbors a fallen naaru that her relationship with her lightforged hubby is suffering and she is cutting herself off from her son and her oldest friend is now presumed dead. All of this can make someone think there is a HOLE in their heart and that doesnt include the constant whispers that we see she is now interacting with.

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dont trust the crown of light
anduin?? nah
turalyon?? nah
new arathi emperor?? definitely possible

[Vakir]

Oh no, in itself i would agree but...i dont see how her character is particularly layered or complex? Like, at all. Shes written as a typical by-the-book narcissist, with basically zero other character traits shown so far. Thats not a complex character. So far, shes got not mcuh more depth than Archimonde.



"Big villain" doesnt equal "Main villain of the franchise". Shes a significant villain, no doubt. New "Sargeras-type" main villain? Nah.

No, I wouldn't say Azshara is complex. She is a malignant narcissist. But what she does have that so many bigger bads don't have is charisma.

Anytime they go and try to make some world ending catastrophe they typically lack this or fuck up any semblance of the character's personality if they're elevated to that point. I think the only exception was Garrosh.

Azshara is in the Pantheon of villains that haven't been ruined yet next to like...Gul'dan, Denathrius, Garrosh, and Xal'atath. And I'm very worried about that last one. Kel'Thuzad was on that list too until his terrible new voice in Wrath which was traded for character assassination in Shadowlands.

The moment Arthas stopped doing things like: being a smarmy asshole to Uther before his death, humorously mistaking the Nerubians calling out about him vs. Anub'arak, trolling Kael about Jaina, calling Kel'Thuzad his friend, practically breaking the fourth wall before the last TFT mission, etc. he lost a ton of his humanity and draw as an antagonist and became another loot pinata with a cool design and not much else.

For that I can agree on Azshara being a candidate for THE future Big Bad over Extremely Large Void Being #837, but I say that knowing full well that it'll probably make her suck if they did.

[Jolly Roger]

That is the way I'm leaning, with Cheezits' post.



Possible, but I don't really see why she would be. Why would Xal'atath want to take her over? She's got a body already.

she has a dead body
meanwhile lines through the game make it seem like Alleria is being made into a vessel

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Thats pretty much irrelevant.
We only beat the LK bc Tyrion got suddenly Light-boosted. We only beat Neltharion bc of the other aspects and the Dragon Soul. We only beat Archimonde bc Khadgar, Grom, Yrel and the combined armies of the Horde and Alliance were helping out. We only beat Kil bc Illidan, Velen and Khadgar were helping out. That argument can be made for A LOT of previous villains. Doesnt mean they are qualified to be the new big main villain of the franchise.

it isnt irrelevent though

she was already a supremely powerful being before being boosted
half the names here are ppl that got killed
Arthas wouldnt have died if his sword wasnt broken
She is just literally insanely powerful and we have never killed her

[Raetary]

She is just literally insanely powerful and we have never killed her

Erm... we did.

N'zoth brought her back.

[Santandame]

No, I wouldn't say Azshara is complex. She is a malignant narcissist. But what she does have that so many bigger bads don't have is charisma.

Anytime they go and try to make some world ending catastrophe they typically lack this or fuck up any semblance of the character's personality if they're elevated to that point. I think the only exception was Garrosh.

Azshara is in the Pantheon of villains that haven't been ruined yet next to like...Gul'dan, Denathrius, Garrosh, and Xal'atath. And I'm very worried about that last one. Kel'Thuzad was on that list too until his terrible new voice in Wrath which was traded for character assassination in Shadowlands.

The moment Arthas stopped doing things like: being a smarmy asshole to Uther before his death, humorously mistaking the Nerubians calling out about him vs. Anub'arak, trolling Kael about Jaina, calling Kel'Thuzad his friend, practically breaking the fourth wall before the last TFT mission, etc. he lost a ton of his humanity and draw as an antagonist and became another loot pinata with a cool design and not much else.

For that I can agree on Azshara being a candidate for THE future Big Bad over Extremely Large Void Being #837, but I say that knowing full well that it'll probably make her suck if they did.

Also in response to @Houle

She’s not overly complex no, but I didn’t say she was. But there are layers. You can have layers to you but not be a complex character. She’s shown some level of care for her people. Attempting to protect them during the Sundering, whilst also willing Sharas’dal to let them breathe the water whilst they were drowning.

There’s no doubt that she’s a narcissist, but during the Highborne’s most catastrophic moment in history, she did attempt to save them - her thoughts weren’t entirely on protecting herself. There’s potential there to expand on that aspect of her character.

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Erm... we did.

N'zoth brought her back.

No we didn’t. She was unconscious.

[Sondrelk]

Also in response to @Houle

She’s not overly complex no, but I didn’t say she was. But there are layers. You can have layers to you but not be a complex character. She’s shown some level of care for her people. Attempting to protect them during the Sundering, whilst also willing Sharas’dal to let them breathe the water whilst they were drowning.

There’s no doubt that she’s a narcissist, but during the Highborne’s most catastrophic moment in history, she did attempt to save them - her thoughts weren’t entirely on protecting herself. There’s potential there to expand on that aspect of her character.

There is the simple explanation that her narcissism presents as a more broad sense of herself as a ruler. She doesnt care for her subjects as people, but rather as extensions of herself. She attempts to save the civilians because she doesnt want to just be a powerful mage, she wants to be Azshara, Empress of Kalimdor.

[Vakir]

Also in response to @Houle

She’s not overly complex no, but I didn’t say she was. But there are layers. You can have layers to you but not be a complex character. She’s shown some level of care for her people. Attempting to protect them during the Sundering, whilst also willing Sharas’dal to let them breathe the water whilst they were drowning.

There’s no doubt that she’s a narcissist, but during the Highborne’s most catastrophic moment in history, she did attempt to save them - her thoughts weren’t entirely on protecting herself. There’s potential there to expand on that aspect of her character.

I kinda always read it as similar to Cersei's love of her children and of her brother - she sees them as proxies, xeroxes, or extensions of herself. This is MY kingdom. These are MY subjects.

Which is truth in how narcissism tends to work.

I don't even mean "not complex" as a bad thing frankly. I'm fine with it. We want a fucking personality. I'd be down with Azshara if it also meant not screwing her up.

[Sondrelk]

No we didn’t. She was unconscious.

Or she died. No reason to assume she was just unconscious. The way she jolts back when grabbed by N'zoth very much seems to imply he brought her back to life.

[Santandame]

I kinda always read it as similar to Cersei's love of her children and of her brother - she sees them as proxies, xeroxes, or extensions of herself. This is MY kingdom. These are MY subjects.

Which is truth in how narcissism tends to work.

I don't even mean "not complex" as a bad thing frankly. I'm fine with it. We want a fucking personality. I'd be down with Azshara if it also meant not screwing her up.

That’s a great comparison, I agree with that actually.

Oh don’t get me wrong, she isn’t complex, but I don’t think any Warcraft character particularly is aside from Garrosh really and possibly Anduin. As you said, she has charisma and that’s what’s important.

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Or she died. No reason to assume she was just unconscious. The way she jolts back when grabbed by N'zoth very much seems to imply he brought her back to life.

What evidence do we have that she died? Even in her “death” animation she’s still alive. What evidence is there that N’Zoth has necromantic powers? The way she was jolted back to consciousness implies she was resurrected, sorry?

Just seems like some crazy mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion she died.

[Varodoc]

Queen Azshara is one of the most fascinating villains in Warcraft.

Self-centred, arrogant, power-hungry, and pure evil like Gul'dan.

But, unlike Gul'dan, she is a Lawful kind of villain. She rules through an empire. She wants to be exalted through law, order, monuments, an entire civilization of vanity and worship. She is actually a very rare type of villain in fiction. Not many villains who create an entire civilization/cult of personality around him/herself.

I look at the glory of the Kaldorei Empire as it is portrayed in Chronicles, a vast empire of metropolis and monuments, all this greatness, an entire civilization, created just to exalt one being. That is why Azshara is so badass.

I look forward to seeing more of Azshara and her empire.

[Sondrelk]

What evidence do we have that she died? Even in her “death” animation she’s still alive. What evidence is there that N’Zoth has necromantic powers? The way she was jolted back to consciousness implies she was resurrected, sorry?

Just seems like some crazy mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion she died.

The fact that her death animation comes right before the cinematic where she is struggling to breathe, then slumps over lifeless. Staying that way until N'zoth picks her up and somehow shocks her back with a sound cue that implies that Azshara had at the very least completely stopped breathing.

Also, it wouldnt be necromancy in this case, more like CPR given she would have been dead for maybe 30 seconds.

The way the cinematic is framed makes it clear that N'zoth at the very least woke Azshara back up, which wouldnt have been necessary if the implication was that she was just unconscious.

[Houle]

No we didn’t. She was unconscious.

Unconscious or not, she was beaten. Straight up. Doesnt matter if we "only beat her bc we had help", bc that applies to most big villains. Weve beaten villains 100x more powerful than her with "help". Thats not a feat for her, thats in line with how Blizz deals with most strong villains. In terms of raw power, shes not even close to being a candiate for "Main villain" atm. There nothing to argue here.

But as i said before, thats irrelevant, bc we are not arguing if shes "powerful" enough to be the main villain. We are arguing about wether or not she as a character is even interesting and important enough to fill that role. And id argue so far, shes neither. Granted, they might attempt to change that (which, as @Vakir has correctly pointed out, might even ruin her character like it did with many other villains before) but so far, i dont see it. So far, shes more like Gul'dan - a strong (but fightable) villain, not very complex but at least with personality and charisma. Someone whos strong enough to work as a threat, but still grounded enough to work on a more personal level. Gul'dan didnt become the main villain who usurped Sargeras. And chances are, neither will she.

And as much as i dislike the whole "cosmic" stuff from Chronicles and Shadowlands, its still there. The most likely canidate for a new "big bad" after Sargers (and thats even assuming were going to deal with him in TLT) is not Azsharah or Xal. Its not even the Void Lords anymore, after SL. Its the "threat"/seventh cosmic force/whatever the Jailer was trying to prepare for.

[Vakir]

Let's be real - even if the whole seventh force was groomed to be the next major antagonist, that doesn't mean they should commit to it. The entirety of the cosmology expansions of the last 5 years and the Zereth concepts makes the setting feel miniscule and answers questions we should never be privy to. It means creating bland lists of "next patches/expansions" that seem seem AI generated, like that garbage Preds made.

I don't think the main threat needs to be the most combat-powerful person in the present universe. Some of the better stories haven't involved that sort of thing.

[Santandame]

The fact that her death animation comes right before the cinematic where she is struggling to breathe, then slumps over lifeless. Staying that way until N'zoth picks her up and somehow shocks her back with a sound cue that implies that Azshara had at the very least completely stopped breathing.

Also, it wouldnt be necromancy in this case, more like CPR given she would have been dead for maybe 30 seconds.

The way the cinematic is framed makes it clear that N'zoth at the very least woke Azshara back up, which wouldnt have been necessary if the implication was that she was just unconscious.

Why wouldn’t it be necessary to wake her back up if she was unconscious? The implication from the cinematic wasn’t that we killed Azshara and N’Zoth has the power to resurrect her. The implication was she was terrified and it was to show the audience that she wasn’t best too pleased to be dragged off by N’Zoth because the two weren’t on the same page. It wasn’t a rescue. Which we learn of in the very next patch when we rescue her from being tortured, and she reveals to us that she had been working against N’Zoth the entire time.

There’s really nothing to indicate that we killed her. There’s no narrative purpose for us to kill her only for her to be resurrected 30 seconds later. None of that plays into or effects the story in any way.

She was unconscious.

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Unconscious or not, she was beaten. Straight up. Doesnt matter if we "only beat her bc we had help", bc that applies to most big villains. Weve beaten villains 100x more powerful than her with "help". Thats not a feat for her, thats in line with how Blizz deals with most strong villains. In terms of raw power, shes not even close to being a candiate for "Main villain" atm. There nothing to argue here.

But as i said before, thats irrelevant, bc we are not arguing if shes "powerful" enough to be the main villain. We are arguing about wether or not she as a character is even interesting and important enough to fill that role. And id argue so far, shes neither. Granted, they might attempt to change that (which, as @Vakir has correctly pointed out, might even ruin her character like it did with many other villains before) but so far, i dont see it. So far, shes more like Gul'dan - a strong (but fightable) villain, not very complex but at least with personality and charisma. Someone whos strong enough to work as a threat, but still grounded enough to work on a more personal level. Gul'dan didnt become the main villain who usurped Sargeras. And chances are, neither will she.

And as much as i dislike the whole "cosmic" stuff from Chronicles and Shadowlands, its still there. The most likely canidate for a new "big bad" after Sargers (and thats even assuming were going to deal with him in TLT) is not Azsharah or Xal. Its not even the Void Lords anymore, after SL. Its the "threat"/seventh cosmic force/whatever the Jailer was trying to prepare for.

I’m not arguing her power levels or whether we beat her. We clearly did. Just stating that she wasn’t killed.

[Houle]

Let's be real - even if the whole seventh force was groomed to be the next major antagonist, that doesn't mean they should commit to it. The entirety of the cosmology expansions of the last 5 years and the Zereth concepts makes the setting feel miniscule and answers questions we should never be privy to. It means creating bland lists of "next patches/expansions" that seem seem AI generated, like that garbage Preds made.

I don't think the main threat needs to be the most combat-powerful person in the present universe. Some of the better stories haven't involved that sort of thing.

Again, overall i agree - introducing the whole cosmic chart with Chronicles and then expanding it in SL hurt the lore more than it did good imho. It forced completely unecessary boundaries on practically every upcoming villain and story.

But fact is that its there now, and the roadmap for the upcoming expansions indicates that they not trying to move away from it, but are rather full-on committing to it.

[Vakir]

Again, overall i agree - introducing the whole cosmic chart with Chronicles and then expanding it in SL hurt the lore more than it did good imho. It forced completely unecessary boundaries on practically every upcoming villain and story. But the fact is that its there now, and the roadmap for the upcoming expansions indicates that they not trying to move away from it but rather full-on committing to it.

Honestly, the complete ignorance of the identity of the glowy feminine voice by two of our leads that should be intimately familiar with the concept of Azeroth plus the heavy acknowledgement of criticism and damage of SL at GDC, plus the leaving of Danuser and layoff of Golden gives me the vibes they're either doing a very broad strokes approach to the Worldsoul Saga, or are at least in a position to do so.

Like, clearly it happened, Anduin is PTSD-ridden over the zero confirmed people he killed, but we're still dealing with a team that has different priorities narratively from the one before it.

Danuser infamously said that 9.2 was the conclusion to Chapter 1 of the story dating back to WC3 and now Metzen comes in saying that the Worldsoul Saga is...meant to wrap up the last 20 years.

If there was ever a time to just discard that bullshit, it's now.