Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Vakir]

That just means Sargeras changed his plans a bit once he saw Azeroths soul

Even if that's the reason, I still find it mostly homogenous and boring.

Like, I'm not gonna argue it's factual, but it discredits a lot of the intrigue for me. Every major antagonist in Warcraft, for now, is officially the same but with a different color scheme and theme.

[Cheezits]

Even if that's the reason, I still find it mostly homogenous and boring.

Like, I'm not gonna argue it's factual, but it discredits a lot of the intrigue for me. Every major antagonist in Warcraft, for now, is officially the same but with a different color scheme and theme.

I wouldn't say that. The all want Azeroth for different reasons.

Legion- Ally (to the point Sargeras was probably trying to destroy the titan prison on Azeroth)
Void- ?????
Zovaal- Energy source
Light- do they even want it?
Life- ????? (probably something as Elune is always meddling)

[Joshuaj]

A life pantheon definitely exists, but I don't think they have the origin that the Eternal Ones have for the reasons I stated.

Shadowlands feel like a formerly primal and unordered realm that was invaded and colonized. By the way Elune acts and work much more fluidly and interchangeably I doubt she's a robot.

Elune is basically doing her job, by spreading the influence of Life, even if it means working with other Pantheons. She seemingly gave Life to the Naaru, she worked with the Titans and gave Eonar a world tree (Elun'ahir), and her domain is seemingly either the core of the Dream or is linked to the Dream the same way Ardenweald is.

Also, I don't see the Titans being the creators of the Life Pantheon. There's nothing to go off that, and based off recent things, Eonar and Elune see eachother as good friends, likely because they're cousins with similar abilities and fondnesses.

One last thing, there IS a reason for why the Shadowlands feels orderly, and that's because it was made with that in mind. Death, Light, and Order are forces of structure. This is talked about in Zereth Mortis from the Oracle Saezurah.

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Even if that's the reason, I still find it mostly homogenous and boring.

Like, I'm not gonna argue it's factual, but it discredits a lot of the intrigue for me. Every major antagonist in Warcraft, for now, is officially the same but with a different color scheme and theme.

Why? Because everyone wants Azeroth and/or the Cosmos now? Wait until I tell you about what the OG Horde wanted, or what Garrosh wanted, or what the Scourge wanted.

I hate to break it to you, but every threat wants to either claim Azeroth or destroy it in their own way. This has been the case since 1994.

[Vakir]

Why? Because everyone wants Azeroth and/or the Cosmos now? Wait until I tell you about what the OG Horde wanted, or what Garrosh wanted, or what the Scourge wanted.

I hate to break it to you, but every threat wants to either claim Azeroth or destroy it in their own way. This has been the case since 1994.

The OG Horde is indistinguishable from the Legion at that point in the timeline. I'd say conquest with regards to Garrosh, driven by pride and frustration toward his race's place in the world, is at least more grounded and "worldly" in terms of being relatable which is why generally Garrosh is held up as WoW's best post-RTS antagonist.

Mmm, destruction is at least something else. It's still very cartoon villain, but Sargeras seemed like an interesting exception based on the motivations outlined that are generally discarded.

There's a way to make Satanic archetypes interesting, dare I say humanized, but it is what it is.

[Joshuaj]

I wouldn't say that. The all want Azeroth for different reasons.

Legion- Ally (to the point Sargeras was probably trying to destroy the titan prison on Azeroth)
Void- ?????
Zovaal- Energy source
Light- do they even want it?
Life- ????? (probably something as Elune is always meddling)

Legion- Obsession and defiling.

Void- Consumption and corruption

Death- Siphoning and chaining

Order- Imprisoning and "infusing"

Light- "Cleansing" and purifying

Life- Shrouding and Overgrowing

And (assuming there is a Disorder Pantheon) Disorder- Chaos and destruction.

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Those are the reasons I would imagine they want Azeroth. But the cause for said reasons are unknown outside of "she has a fuck ton of potential".

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The OG Horde is indistinguishable from the Legion at that point in the timeline. I'd say conquest with regards to Garrosh, driven by pride and frustration toward his race's place in the world, is at least more grounded and "worldly" in terms of being relatable which is why generally Garrosh is held up as WoW's best post-RTS antagonist.

Mmm, destruction is at least something else. It's still very cartoon villain, but Sargeras seemed like an interesting exception based on the motivations outlined that are generally discarded.

There's a way to make Satanic archetypes interesting, dare I say humanized, but it is what it is.

If you want an actual Satanic archetype, the Jailer fits that more than anything, even if he doesn't share the Satanic look.

[Vakir]

I wouldn't say that. The all want Azeroth for different reasons.

Eh, the why is generally ancillary in how it's presented. It's still the same overall presentation and usually the same motivations.

I can forgive it as the threat if it's the bombastic payoff around a 3 part grand finale that's meant to wrap shit up. Hopefully there's more to cover in "the next 20 years."

If you want an actual Satanic archetype, the Jailer fits that more than anything, even if he doesn't share the Satanic look.

I said can be interesting. Zovaal is the least interesting antagonist in the game's history.

[Ersula]

A life pantheon definitely exists, but I don't think they have the origin that the Eternal Ones have for the reasons I stated.

Shadowlands feel like a formerly primal and unordered realm that was invaded and colonized. By the way Elune acts and work much more fluidly and interchangeably I doubt she's a robot.

Then in what way are Elune & The Winter Queen sisters? They're siblings & Elune is in the Life Pantheon. These are things we know.

It might be explained if in the way its implied The Primus was originally a Titan & Winter Queen originally belonged to the Life pantheon, or maybe it was Elune that was a Titan and switched pantheons.

Or maybe The First Ones are simply the original 6; The first of each Pantheon, with the Primus as the First Eternal one, Aman-thul as the first Titan & Elune as the first of the Life Pantheon, etc.

Also I know its easy to call them robots but I don't think we should call them that if it's reductive. They are simply souls that exist in bodies that have to be created, just like all sentient life.

[milkmustache]

Then in what way are Elune & The Winter Queen sisters? They're siblings & Elune is in the Life Pantheon. These are things we know.

It might be explained if in the way its implied The Primus was originally a Titan & Winter Queen originally belonged to the Life pantheon, or maybe it was Elune that was a Titan and switched pantheons.

Or maybe The First Ones are simply the original 6; The first of each Pantheon, with the Primus as the First Eternal one, Aman-thul as the first Titan & Elune as the first of the Life Pantheon, etc.

Also I know its easy to call them robots but I don't think we should call them that if it's reductive. They are simply souls that exist in bodies that have to be created, just like all sentient life.

I never took The Winter Queen calling Elune her sister to be exactly literal, but rather based off the fact that their realms mirror each other, so they may have a developed relationship, without being beings of the same creation. I'm still 100% checked out on what Elune actually is. No clue, but I think it's bigger than we all think.

I do like your idea of the First Ones being the first of each Pantheon. I still think the Titans are above all the rest though.

[Joshuaj]

Then in what way are Elune & The Winter Queen sisters? They're siblings & Elune is in the Life Pantheon. These are things we know.

It might be explained if in the way its implied The Primus was originally a Titan & Winter Queen originally belonged to the Life pantheon, or maybe it was Elune that was a Titan and switched pantheons.

Or maybe The First Ones are simply the original 6; The first of each Pantheon, with the Primus as the First Eternal one, Aman-thul as the first Titan & Elune as the first of the Life Pantheon, etc.

Also I know its easy to call them robots but I don't think we should call them that if it's reductive. They are simply souls that exist in bodies that have to be created, just like all sentient life.

Why would the Primus be the first Eternal One? Wouldn't it make more sense if Zovaal was the first?

Also, if that were the case, the Primus would call himself a First One.

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I never took The Winter Queen calling Elune her sister to be exactly literal, but rather based off the fact that their realms mirror each other, so they may have a developed relationship, without being beings of the same creation. I'm still 100% checked out on what Elune actually is. No clue, but I think it's bigger than we all think.

I do like your idea of the First Ones being the first of each Pantheon. I still think the Titans are above all the rest though.

The sisters stuff is more than just a connected realms thing tho. They are literally 2 sides of the same coin in status as well.

Also, calling the Titans above the other Pantheons goes against the point of SL and DF and how they talk about the divine.

[Cheezits]

Why would the Primus be the first Eternal One? Wouldn't it make more sense if Zovaal was the first?

It's mostly the implied and suspicious link between him and Aman'thul. Also, if we are taking this literally, their "old" theme.

Also, if there was a chronology to which gods existed, I doubt that an Arbiter (Zovaal) existed first. Why would an Ordering god naturally appear in the primordial ooze of Death?

[Nymrohd]

It's mostly the implied and suspicious link between him and Aman'thul. Also, if we are taking this literally, their "old" theme.

Also, if there was a chronology to which gods existed, I doubt that an Arbiter (Zovaal) existed first. Why would an Ordering god naturally appear?

I'd assume the very first function that needed to be up and running in the Shadowlands was that of the Arbiter. Evident by how the place pretty much broke down without one.

[Cheezits]

I'd assume the very first function that needed to be up and running in the Shadowlands was that of the Arbiter. Evident by how the place pretty much broke down without one.

I still think that the realm wasn't so tidily organized and cycle based to start. Maldraxxus fits as something you would naturally expect from an Underworld... not so much the rest.

Primus is both the most natural Death god and Maldraxxus is the most natural death realm, to the idea that the realm is the corpse of some biorganism. I don't believe the "lol Primus is ebil" theory but there are some hints that something isn't clearcut with him.

[Ersula]

The sisters stuff is more than just a connected realms thing tho. They are literally 2 sides of the same coin in status as well.

Also, calling the Titans above the other Pantheons goes against the point of SL and DF and how they talk about the divine.

If they were only speaking figuratively about being sisters, why would the Winter Queen be so offended on a personal level that she didn't answer her calls? There was serious emotional investment there.

Why would the Primus be the first Eternal One? Wouldn't it make more sense if Zovaal was the first?

Why would someone who invented the cosmic order struggle so much at trying to undo it? If he made the other Eternal Ones why would the Primus know how to make weapons he could not?

[Nymrohd]

I still think that the realm wasn't so tidily organized and cycle based to start. Maldraxxus fits as something you would naturally expect from an Underworld... not so much the rest.

Primus is both the most natural Death god and Maldraxxus is the most natural death realm, to the idea that the realm is the corpse of some biorganism. I don't believe the "lol Primus is ebil" theory but there are some hints that something isn't clearcut with him.

My idea is that the cosmos was not just empty before the First Ones. There were places and beings around and the First ones displaced them to create their own multiverse. So there was something in the Shadowlands before Zereth Mortis started spitting afterlives and forging Eternals. After all we know that Marasmius predates the Winter Queen. Heck the original realm might not even have been connected to Death.

[Joshuaj]

I still think that the realm wasn't so tidily organized and cycle based to start. Maldraxxus fits as something you would naturally expect from an Underworld... not so much the rest.

Primus is both the most natural Death god and Maldraxxus is the most natural death realm, to the idea that the realm is the corpse of some biorganism. I don't believe the "lol Primus is ebil" theory but there are some hints that something isn't clearcut with him.

Here is the thing tho, Maldraxxus was made as the Progenitors answer to the whole "threat to the Shadowlands" problem, which implies they were already well into their Shadowlands development process prior to its creation.

Also, each Pantheon member embodies different aspects of Death in a primal sense.

[Cheezits]

My idea is that the cosmos was not just empty before the First Ones. There were places and beings around and the First ones displaced them to create their own multiverse. So there was something in the Shadowlands before Zereth Mortis started spitting afterlives and forging Eternals. After all we know that Marasmius predates the Winter Queen. Heck the original realm might not even have been connected to Death.

I absolutely forgot about Marasmius loredropping that the Winter Queen was not there to start. And this is coming from a FUNGUS, another natural death themed creature.

[Joshuaj]

My idea is that the cosmos was not just empty before the First Ones. There were places and beings around and the First ones displaced them to create their own multiverse. So there was something in the Shadowlands before Zereth Mortis started spitting afterlives and forging Eternals. After all we know that Marasmius predates the Winter Queen. Heck the original realm might not even have been connected to Death.

The Shadowlands existing before Zereth Mortis would go against the whole point of Zereth Mortis.

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I absolutely forgot about Marasmius loredropping that the Winter Queen was not there to start. And this is coming from a FUNGUS, another natural death themed creature.

That just means the Progenitors made Ardenweald before sending the Winter Queen there.

[Cheezits]

Here is the thing tho, Maldraxxus was made as the Progenitors answer to the whole "threat to the Shadowlands" problem, which implies they were already well into their Shadowlands development process prior to its creation.

Also, each Pantheon member embodies different aspects of Death in a primal sense.

That is the purpose of Maldraxxus when we visit, and what we are told... but it is the least associated with the cycle, and again, is very suspiciously "natural" in the way that one would expect life to resemble in a Death world. Fungi, bone minerals, etc.

[Joshuaj]

If they were only speaking figuratively about being sisters, why would the Winter Queen be so offended on a personal level that she didn't answer her calls? There was serious emotional investment there.
Why would someone who invented the cosmic order struggle so much at trying to undo it? If he made the other Eternal Ones why would the Primus know how to make weapons he could not?

The answer to your Primus question is simple. The First Ones aren't the "first members of each pantheon". That's silly.

Also, say I humor your Jailer question rq, you do realize he's against the Cosmic system of the Progenitors because of the 7th yeah?

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That is the purpose of Maldraxxus when we visit, and what we are told... but it is the least associated with the cycle, and again, is very suspiciously "natural" in the way that one would expect life to resemble in a Death world. Fungi, bone minerals, etc.

Those are aspects of Death, which the element of decay primarily takes from (funny enough lol). The place is supposed to look like a rotting corpse, because it embodies that aspect. It's gross, it's full of skulls, it's terrible, and it's the perfect place to house the military might of Death.

[Cheezits]

There being a prototype Primus in ZM does throw a wrench in the idea, but everything else I mentioned still stands. It just doesn't fit: aesthetically, probably to have it stand out in a meta fashion, but also in its incredibly non-mechanical operations.