Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lahis]

I’m not arguing this point but can you show me where metzan says that.
Is it explicitly the light will be the main ally of the heroes?
Is there anychance the light is the main ally of the antagonist? Whoever they may be in midnight?

Light being the last boss of Void focused expansion called Midnight would be a curveball.

[milkmustache]

I’m not arguing this point but can you show me where metzan says that.
Is it explicitly the light will be the main ally of the heroes?
Is there anychance the light is the main ally of the antagonist? Whoever they may be in midnight?

Quick direct quote from the announcement at Blizzcon:

... You will make your stand with the forces of the Light and banish the Shadow forever.

I'm sure this will be far more nuanced, but yea, we're fighting with the Light this time around. I think if we see any direct Light antagonism, it will come in TLT.

[Varodoc]

Quick direct quote from the announcement at Blizzcon:



I'm sure this will be far more nuanced, but yea, we're fighting with the Light this time around. I think if we see any direct Light antagonism, it will come in TLT.

Which is the norm. The Light has regularly been an ally of the mortals, in TBC, in Wrath, in WoD, in Legion, and so on.

As per usual, people hyper-fixate on one outlier and blow it out of proportions. The track record shows us that the Naaru are allies.

I call this "recency bias", the dangerous counterpart of "nostalgia". One questline from 2018 is enough to make people forget about TBC and Wrath where the Naaru and, in general, the Light forces were the main ally.

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Oh, also, the fact that people would rather side with Mr. "Some of my fellow Moon Guard will brutally die, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" instead of the Prime Naaru is proof of how easily the masses are manipulated by good looks. Ew.

[milkmustache]

Which is the norm. The Light has regularly been an ally of the mortals, in TBC, in Wrath, in WoD, in Legion, and so on.

As per usual, people hyper-fixate on one outlier and blow it out of proportions. The track record shows us that the Naaru are allies.

I call this "recency bias", the dangerous counterpart of "nostalgia". One questline from 2018 is enough to make people forget about TBC and Wrath where the Naaru and, in general, the Light forces were the main ally.

Not to say that you're wrong, but there is a clear shift towards all cosmic forces being a bit suspect. I think as much as I'd like to see the Light partially become an enemy force, we'll mostly be battling alongside them, like, as you said, we have for most of the game's history.

That being said, I think we're moving towards an area where there's no clear good or bad status from the cosmic forces. Portions of the Light will be allies, but there will also be zealots that we'll have to fight as we have with the Scarlets, and maybe will with the Arathi. And I think that applies to all of them.

[Civciv]

Oh, also, the fact that people would rather side with Mr. "Some of my fellow Moon Guard will brutally die, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" instead of the Prime Naaru is proof of how easily the masses are manipulated by good looks. Ew.

Yeah I'm not gonna stan a 'you will do what I tell you' light being. I'd rather cheer for my king Illidan, period.

[Varodoc]

Yeah I'm not gonna stan a 'you will do what I tell you' light being. I'd rather cheer for my king Illidan, period.

Yet that is precisely what Illidan did as soon as he returned. "Now mortals, follow me, into the abyss". It kind of sounds like he's telling Me what to do.

I see that the six pack and 2007 nostalgia keep carrying Illidan well into the 2020s.

[milkmustache]

Yet that is precisely what Illidan did as soon as he returned. "Now mortals, follow me, into the abyss". It kind of sounds like he's telling Me what to do.

I see that the six packs and 2007 nostalgia keep carrying Illidan well into the 2020s.

Well... yeah. That's the point.

I don't see how the player is supposed to view what Xera is doing as a particularly great thing. Illidan has been a fan favorite character for a long time and Legion was his stage to shine. Rejecting forced empowerment from a Light being and instead brute forcing his way as he had been is completely on track.

Even if it doesn't make the most logistical sense, we're still the player characters who will most likely win at the end of the day. WoW has always been rule of cool, and Illidan is the posterboy for that.

[Civciv]

Yet that is precisely what Illidan did as soon as he returned. "Now mortals, follow me, into the abyss". It kind of sounds like he's telling Me what to do.

I see that the six pack and 2007 nostalgia keep carrying Illidan well into the 2020s.

I don't remember Illidan using fel to force us into killing Legion.

[Varodoc]

I don't remember Illidan using fel to force us into killing Legion.

I don't remember Xe'ra doing that either...

I remember her doing that to ILLIDAN, a neutral party that we are supposed to care about for whatever reason.

Regardless, I've reached the point where I'm tired of talking about characters like Illidan, Sylvanas, or Grommash. It is clear that nothing will change your mind as Illidan gets the benefit of 2007 Nostalgia, while Xe'ra doesn't.

I'll mention the only fact worth mentioning: The Light will be a Protagonist in Midnight, as stated by Metzen.

[Civciv]

I don't remember Xe'ra doing that either...

I remember her doing that to ILLIDAN, a neutral party that we are supposed to care about for whatever reason.

Regardless, I've reached the point where I'm tired of talking about characters like Illidan, Sylvanas, or Grommash. It is clear that nothing will change your mind as Illidan gets the benefit of 2007 Nostalgia, while Xe'ra doesn't.

I'll mention the only fact worth mentioning: The Light will be a Protagonist in Midnight, as stated by Metzen.

Good? Nothing personal against Light, Xe'ra was just annoying to most people.

[SilverLion]

Good? Nothing personal against Light, Xe'ra was just annoying to most people.

Tbf I personally can't stand Illidan either. I'm over SadBoys bad attitudes being justified in post because they have the social skills of a wet box. Not saying every character needs to be charismatic, but Illidan's mild emo behavior has bugged me since WC3. Xe'ra being a little tyrannical with the Light's edicts doesn't imply that the Light itself is bad. It implies the Naaru can misunderstand the mission. I think people got lost in the weeds. The Light itself is still a force for good, inherently. Problem is the mission of the Naaru and other Light Envoy types is to force others to join into the "chorus" when they may be perfectly fine outside it. It's the Naaru that are flawed, not the Light itself. We've gotten no lore indications as far as I can tell that the Light itself is somehow pulling the strings and the Naaru are just it's arbiters. It's far more likely that it's the other way around.

[Civciv]

Tbf I personally can't stand Illidan either. I'm over SadBoys bad attitudes being justified in post because they have the social skills of a wet box. Not saying every character needs to be charismatic, but Illidan's mild emo behavior has bugged me since WC3. Xe'ra being a little tyrannical with the Light's edicts doesn't imply that the Light itself is bad. It implies the Naaru can misunderstand the mission. I think people got lost in the weeds. The Light itself is still a force for good, inherently. Problem is the mission of the Naaru and other Light Envoy types is to force others to join into the "chorus" when they may be perfectly fine outside it. It's the Naaru that are flawed, not the Light itself. We've gotten no lore indications as far as I can tell that the Light itself is somehow pulling the strings and the Naaru are just it's arbiters. It's far more likely that it's the other way around.

Thats why I said 'nothing personal against light'. I just didn't like the way Xe'ra was acting. I agree with everything you said (except Illidan cuz I like him)

[Varodoc]

I don't think that the Naaru have some 30000 IQ masterplan to enslave everyone once the Void is defeated. I also think that people need to understand that Xe'ra was an outlier. As the Prime Naaru, she controlled the Light armies across the Universe, that made her even more dogmatic and ruthless than all the other Naaru.

She is an outlier. Pretty much every other Naaru is either Neutral or actually Friendly to mortals. A'dal and his group of Naaru were rebuilding Shattrath as a refuge for all the free races of Outland, and also their forces formed the Shattered Sun Offensive that saved the world at the end.

Nah, the Naaru are not evil, they were the only one giving some refuge to the people of Outland, which our precious Illidan was enslaving and massacring.

And you will see it again in Midnight, you will see that the Naaru are allies.

[SilverLion]

I don't think that the Naaru have some 30000 IQ masterplan to enslave everyone once the Void is defeated. I also think that people need to understand that Xe'ra was an outlier. As the Prime Naaru, she controlled the Light armies across the Universe, that made her even more dogmatic and ruthless than all the other Naaru.

She is an outlier. Pretty much every other Naaru is either Neutral or actually Friendly to mortals. A'dal and his group of Naaru were rebuilding Shattrath as a refuge for all the free races of Outland, and also their forces formed the Shattered Sun Offensive that saved the world at the end.

Nah, the Naaru are not evil, they were the only one giving some refuge to the people of Outland, which our precious Illidan was enslaving and massacring.

And you will see it again in Midnight, you will see that the Naaru are allies.

I didn't say the Naaru were evil. I said the Naaru might have misunderstood the mission. That's entirely different. I didn't say anything about enslaving anyone or high IQ plans. I very specifically worded things the way I did for a reason. I said the Naaru, at least a couple, believe in the Light's goal of unification. We know this exists because multiple Lightbearers and Voidwalkers have explained their philosophy. The Light sees only path to the "truth". The Void sees multiple paths and they're all "truth". This logic implies that the Light as a cosmic force wants everyone to join together, hence why i called it a chorus. But the Light has never actually given a mandate on how beings should join said chorus. And I believe based on Xe'ra and Yrel, that certain Naaru and Naaru aligned groups have misunderstood this to mean "force them". That's not the Naaru going evil. That's the Naaru not understanding mortals.

If you try to boil everything down to good and evil you're going to run into this problem.

[Alanar]

To each their own. I actually thought these were different and fun.

At least better than the 2939729398th kill or fetch quest.

To each their own indeed.

I personally thought the quests were clumsly done. The delay between interactions and not able to move your camera killed all the fun. I did this stuff in the past already, so I simply dont care.

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The Plunderlord set is actually really good showcase on how Tmog behaves on Mechagnomes. 3D bits that are attached to chest or belt will show up even if they cover up legs, because techincally they're part of the chest/belt slot (3D bist on sleeves don't show up for obvious reasons). 3D bits that come with leg slot, which includes all longcoats etc. won't show up at all on Mechagnomes.

And this is why they are called diapergnomes.

[Varodoc]

I didn't say the Naaru were evil. I said the Naaru might have misunderstood the mission. That's entirely different. I didn't say anything about enslaving anyone or high IQ plans. I very specifically worded things the way I did for a reason. I said the Naaru, at least a couple, believe in the Light's goal of unification. We know this exists because multiple Lightbearers and Voidwalkers have explained their philosophy. The Light sees only path to the "truth". The Void sees multiple paths and they're all "truth". This logic implies that the Light as a cosmic force wants everyone to join together, hence why i called it a chorus. But the Light has never actually given a mandate on how beings should join said chorus. And I believe based on Xe'ra and Yrel, that certain Naaru and Naaru aligned groups have misunderstood this to mean "force them". That's not the Naaru going evil. That's the Naaru not understanding mortals.

If you try to boil everything down to good and evil you're going to run into this problem.

And I neither mentioned you nor quoted you, so I don't know why you think My post was addressed at you.

[Eldryth]

DF says otherwise. And SL too, for that matter. You're confusing what you want the game to be with what it actually is.

Link isn't as non-negotiable as you think, either.

You can go back way further than that- the vast majority of the franchise outright opposes the faction war theme. Even before WoW, it was only fundamental for Warcraft 1 and 2. Warcraft 3 shifted the theme to both factions setting aside their hatred to defeat a common threat and find peace, and that theme has stuck throughout the entirety of WoW. Even the faction war expansions ultimately followed to it, with both of them ending with the good parts of the Horde teaming up with the Alliance to overthrow their Warchief.

That's not to say that faction war expansions can't work- it worked out great in MoP (not so much BFA) by treating Garrosh as an antagonist who threatens that peace. But it's far from necessary, and should be uncommon to avoid unsustainably repeating the same story over and over.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The faction conflict really just needs to go back to how it was in the shattering, fights happens people die the leaders at the top are against it but at the same time don’t actually have the power to put an end to all fighting nor do they want to disavow all of it as there are legit grievances and it would be political suicide.

The game could continue on like that for ever and have no problem with the conflict never ending just like the US and Russia have been doing in real life.

[Skildar]

The faction conflict really just needs to go back to how it was in the shattering, fights happens people die the leaders at the top are against it but at the same time don’t actually have the power to put an end to all fighting nor do they want to disavow all of it as there are legit grievances and it would be political suicide.

The game could continue on like that for ever and have no problem with the conflict never ending just like the US and Russia have been doing in real life.

They definitely should but the love and peace tone of Dragonflight in which Aspects acknowledge mistakes that aren't even ones and apologise to terrorists makes me quite sceptical we'll see deeper and more engaged/realistic storytelling :/

[Santandame]

I guess I am a rarity in this regards but I found WoD to be a mixed bag. Entry zones and Spires of Arak were exceptional. Gorgrond was a mess except maybe the Laughing Skull parts but those were cut short, Talador felt directionless with the Shattrath scenario making no sense and with Nagrand I just didn't get why Grommashar looked like a trash heap (and felt the Warsong were the worst represented of the clans)

You make an excellent point.

Gorgrond whilst useful for the bonus xp it randomly granted, was a mess partly because of the split between the lumber mill and sparring arena and also due to the zone feeling jarring in story due to the late rewrite in beta because of “orc fatigue”.

Talador, ironically the zone I was most excited for at launch was a huge let down story wise. As you said, what was the direction? The Auchindoun/Shadow Council storyline felt extremely rushed, only being one chapter. It just felt like a weird hodgepodge of random, unrelated, rushed storylines. The disappointing Shattrath event, the meh Gordunni Ogre storyline, the randomness of Khadgar’s tower and the Goren mine. A very bizarre zone when you think about it.

Nagrand was extremely lacking as the climax of the levelling experience. Most of the zone was reserved for apexis quests with no story content. The Warsong clan were poorly represented. We got very little of a Highmaul storyline prior to the raid. Again, a very bizarre zone.

Was WoD questing really as good as everyone makes out? Shadowmoon was great, as were Spires and Frostfire. Every other zone when you think about it were pretty poor.

Honestly? The best levelling content, for me at least, is BfA’s by a far margin. Legion coming in second.