Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Vakir]

I more assumed they are talking about the MoP Remix discussion, since that has very literally absolutely nothing to do with expansion speculation, at all.

Fair. I never assume the limits on failed reading comp, but it is pretty much 50/50 of that page's content.

Every time there's new lore or stuff people instantly assume there's a plot twist hiding somewhere. It's so weird.

In addition to what @Raetary said, I think it's also that peopls are just really desperate for things not to go the obvious route, since typically it's clear to everyone - and I don't mean "Reddit figured out WW zomg," I mean everyone.

Gotta love the story so far chunk on Alpha clarifying that it's Azeroth for example.

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But that's the thing, people don't know what dramatic irony is.
Thrall and Anduin, etc. are confused about the voices, so despite us, the player, having the information that the Song is Azeroth, people are convinced that there is a twist being set up because the characters don't immediately know it themselves.

It's a valid use of a device, it's just immensely weird someone didn't call it from at least relatively early on. Kinda makes the characters look like dummies. We got an actual shaman, albeit nerfed, the brightest mage of her generation, another brilliant mage among one of the best in his generation, a former speaker of Azeroth, aaaaand Anduin who I guess wouldn't have reason to know or care.

Someone really should've had at least an inkling. Kinda makes our heroes look like even bigger dummies than usual.

[Joshuaj]

It's a mystery in the narrative.
Nobody knows its Azeroth until Magni confirms it.

We know it from out-of-universe sourcing.

But that's the thing, people don't know what dramatic irony is.
Thrall and Anduin, etc. are confused about the voices, so despite us, the player, having the information that the Song is Azeroth, people are convinced that there is a twist being set up because the characters don't immediately know it themselves.

Additionally we have Void and Light presence, both of which do visions and whispers, so people just connect those dots despite having no real reason to, despite everything we know both from context, datamining and Blizzards own words contradicting that idea.

Well, the Players could canonically sort of assume it's Azeroth, as one of them wielded the HoA before, and they straight up know Azeroths voice VIA the Jailer fight.

Outside of that though, yeah no one knows shit about the Radiant Song.

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The Radiant Song was, funny enough, first talked about in the Exploring Azeroth books. It started occurring once the Jailer fell.

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Every time there's new lore or stuff people instantly assume there's a plot twist hiding somewhere. It's so weird.

"But but the Radiant song was the Void or the Light crystal at Hallowfall, I was sure of it"- some random theory guy, probably

[Ersula]

Every time there's new lore or stuff people instantly assume there's a plot twist hiding somewhere. It's so weird.

Blizzard leaves heaps of ambiguity in its storytelling & worldbuilding. For a competent writer, ambiguity is left in for some sort of revelation or twist. So a modern audience will be trained to anticipate ambiguity in this way. Even though its typical that for Blizzard games, this ambiguity is ultimately pointless and simply the result in its writers being terrified to commit anything to canonical lore.

[Enrif]

The blindness in this.

"Magni awoke with new insight into the Radiant Song. Azeroth has been trying to warn us that Khaz Algar, a titan installation from legend, is in danger. Dalaran will teleport to the island to defend it."

The Radiant Song is from Azeroth, like we've all been saying/pointing out the obvious.

That is the story blurb just after the introduction quests. Do you really believe that a twist, like that the song is not from azeroth, will be revealed then? At earliest it will happen after the Hallowfall storyline. But given that the focus of the first raid is on the nerubians, it will be either part of the max level campaign, or for the first major patch after launch.

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Because people have no media literacy and plot twists are like the one and only literary trope they know of.

And since the narrative contains some elements of mystery and has some vague details, people are jumping on the bandwagon.

The thing is, blizzard does plot twists. They always did. Doesn't matter if they are done good or bad.

Westfall, Hope is in reality Vanessa Van Cleef

Muradin survived the betrayal of Arthas.

Illidan survived!

Kael'thas returning after Tempest Keep to defile the Sunwell to summon Kil'jaeden.

There mus always be a Lich King!

BfA was totally a old god expansion with a veneer of faction conflict.

Iridikorn not being the actual big bad of DF but Fyrak.

The list can go on and on. That the radiant song is not actually Azeroth is a classic plot twist that would fit into the upcoming narrative of Void versus Light.

[Vakir]

That is the story blurb just after the introduction quests. Do you really believe that a twist, like that the song is not from azeroth, will be revealed then?

...? The perspective is third person omniscient. If it were meant to be inaccurate or ambiguous, the verbage would be "Magni believes that it may be Azeroth" or something to that effect.

The thing is, blizzard does plot twists. They always did. Doesn't matter if they are done good or bad.

The thing is, most of these are transparent as fuck or don't hold up to logic and were created for shock value, not with any actual grace.

The very moment you see Van Cleef has a daughter, you know it's Vanessa. But this comes so late in the zone that it's not a meaningful development, it's just giving us the first actual piece of information to solve the murders and it's a gigantic mallet over the head of a "clue." It's the perfect way to not do a mystery or twist.

Muradin is a flat out retcon 6 years later. To the point where he has a pool of blood that doesn't exist when you see it in Dragonblight.

Illidan surviving isn't a twist. There's dummied out dialogue in TFT's files of Arthas deliberately sparing him out of spite and the fight was meant to be an FMV that ran out of time and budget. The fact that everyone was confused that he was alive is a perfect example of Blizzard's poor history with their own stories, not a twist.

Kael returning wasn't a twist, you get them telling you about it immediately when you turn in his sphere via an event.

The Lich King twist is one, but it's completely inconsistent with the established story as a way for cheap drama, to the point where a Scourge uncontrolled did absolutely no damage of value over the course of most of Shadowlands before we finished the Burger King Crown.

BFA being an Old God expac was called by everyone from day 1. They also told us the first patch raid was going to be Azshara, so we can barely even put that down.

Fyrakk over Iridikron is a stretch considering that we didn't go into Dragonflight even having much of a direction in the first place to have our expectations subverted. He fucks off to do his own thing almost immediately after he's freed.

These are all weak examples and just reinforce that people usually know the story immediately and Blizzard is prone to Occam's Razor unless they pull something that works against logic, like the Lich King ending. The most recent confirmed twist we just got is that an NPC everyone knew was Xal ended up being Xal.

But all of the above is redundant to the fact that the journal entry is THIRD PERSON OMNISCIENT. It's like when people insisted the Jailer was a good guy when actual written promo materials called him "an ancient evil." Sometimes they're just giving it to you.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Every time there's new lore or stuff people instantly assume there's a plot twist hiding somewhere. It's so weird.

Modern Blizzard has been converged by Gen Ys and millenials who think being subversive is good. "Actually, the Light isn't intrinsically holy and good! It's actually just another materialistic magic property and can be used for evil! Actually, the Void can be good! Actually, Illidan wasn't an evil tyrant with concubines! He actually a good guy! Actually, there was this bald guy who was really behind the Lich King and behind everything that ever happened! Actually, Dreadlords didn't serve Sargeras, they served this bald guy! Actually, the souls of Man'ari aren't damned for eternity, they can just come back and be good again! Actually, the Titans are evil! Actually, the Titan World Soul of Azeroth isn't a Titan at all!" and on and on it goes. It's to be expected.

[Makabreska]

Modern Blizzard has been converged by Gen Ys and millenials who think being subversive is good. "Actually, the Light isn't intrinsically holy and good! It's actually just another materialistic magic property and can be used for evil! Actually, the Void can be good!.

Not sure about you, but I prefer when setting and story is not about white vs black.

[Vakir]

Modern Blizzard has been converged by Gen Ys and millenials who think being subversive is good. "Actually, the Light isn't intrinsically holy and good! It's actually just another materialistic magic property and can be used for evil!

The Scarlet Crusade...?

Actually, the Void can be good!

Shadow Priests...? Which were actually not Old God themed on release and consequently even less evil aligned?

Actually, Illidan wasn't an evil tyrant with concubines! He actually a good guy!

This is just course correction over an absolute trash characterization with TBC being just a loot pinata gathering. Same with Vashj and Kael in SL. Nobody liked this and it doesn't reflect Illidan's characterization over two games.

Did they over-correct, though? Yes.

The Jailer is hot garbage, though, yeah. But a bigger evil behind another evil isn't subversive, it's just lazy. It's saying "forget your old action figure and buy this new one."

Also, Gen Y and Millennials are the same thing. Metzen and Samwise are Gen X which was literally defined around rebellion and subversion. This was the "MTV generation." This was a post-Vietnam generation that got to watch government authority and media be distrustful and destructive.

Stick to JRPGs like Trials of Coldsteel the Hedgehog, sweetie. (A subgenre literally defined by subversion because of the Japanese reaction to Westernization and hyperindustrialization.)

[allegrian]

Titans as antagonists was a cool concept with Algalon but they have to write it well, not just be like "oh they're totally evil", and more like "they are gods who dont care if they have to replace all life in azeroth to design a new one".

A cool story would be the void conquering most of azeroth after midnight and the Titans coming back to try to remove old gods again like they did in the past, remaking azeroth in the process and thus wiping all life. More than killing them, our actions against their will should convince them to let the mortals take care of the problem.

[THEORACLE64]

That is the story blurb just after the introduction quests. Do you really believe that a twist, like that the song is not from azeroth, will be revealed then? At earliest it will happen after the Hallowfall storyline. But given that the focus of the first raid is on the nerubians, it will be either part of the max level campaign, or for the first major patch after launch.

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The thing is, blizzard does plot twists. They always did. Doesn't matter if they are done good or bad.

Westfall, Hope is in reality Vanessa Van Cleef

Muradin survived the betrayal of Arthas.

Illidan survived!

Kael'thas returning after Tempest Keep to defile the Sunwell to summon Kil'jaeden.

There mus always be a Lich King!

BfA was totally a old god expansion with a veneer of faction conflict.

Iridikorn not being the actual big bad of DF but Fyrak.

The list can go on and on. That the radiant song is not actually Azeroth is a classic plot twist that would fit into the upcoming narrative of Void versus Light.

You're basically so wrong, even with the evidence slapped in your face. It's funny watching you try to prove some absolutely null and wrong point.

[Vakir]

A cool story would be the void conquering most of azeroth after midnight and the Titans coming back to try to remove old gods again like they did in the past, remaking azeroth in the process and thus wiping all life. More than killing them, our actions against their will should convince them to let the mortals take care of the problem.

This is literally my guess for the TLT ending.

The Titans being capital E evil alignment isn't in the cards, but them being a cold and unfeeling collective of manipulators or bureaucrats trying to guide the planet the way they want regardless of its inhabitants is literally verbatim what they have been, "muh millennial subversion" be damned Val, and everyone seems to have forgotten that.

[Super Dickmann]

It's a valid use of a device, it's just immensely weird someone didn't call it from at least relatively early on. Kinda makes the characters look like dummies. We got an actual shaman, albeit nerfed, the brightest mage of her generation, another brilliant mage among one of the best in his generation, a former speaker of Azeroth, aaaaand Anduin who I guess wouldn't have reason to know or care.

Someone really should've had at least an inkling. Kinda makes our heroes look like even bigger dummies than usual.

Anduin was in the room when Magni explained to everyone that azerite came from the planet and the planet had a soul. He was inhabited by the Bald Man who's entire plan hinged on this factoid. Thrall not knowing is dumb because he's a shaman, but Blizzard don't give a rat's ass about shamans, whereas Our Treasure not knowing it is just bizarre. It isn't actually a mark against the story in so far as we find out in the first five minutes, but it's just a weird choice.

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This is literally my guess for the TLT ending.

The Titans being capital E evil alignment isn't in the cards, but them being a cold and unfeeling collective of manipulators trying to guide the planet the way they want regardless of its inhabitants is literally verbatim what they have been, "muh millennial subversion" be damned, and everyone seems to have forgotten that.

The titan characterization is as old as Wrath and the only times it hasn't been the case is when the Titans have been blando conversational benevolent gods in Legion, e.g. their worst portrayal. There is a case to be made that making the Light an iffy force rather than a force that can be used for an iffy cause is grasping at straws (it isn't, but it can be made), but the only Titan portrayals that didn't leave room for them to be an antagonistic force are also their very worst ones.

[Makabreska]

A cool story would be the void conquering most of azeroth after midnight and the Titans coming back to try to remove old gods again like they did in the past, remaking azeroth in the process and thus wiping all life. More than killing them, our actions against their will should convince them to let the mortals take care of the problem.

Problem is, this was already done. We have defeated and killed Old Gods where Titans safely couldn't, we changed Algalons mind and stopped re-origination, we saved Pantheon, teamed up with them and kicked Legions ass (a massive feat they wholeheartedly acknowledged and were thankful for). Titans suddenly appearing and trying to wipe Azeroth clean, even if that would seems to them as the only way, would be superbly jarring.

[Super Dickmann]

Problem is, this was already done. We have defeated and killed Old Gods where Titans couldn't, we changed Algalons mind and stopped re-origination, we saved Pantheon, teamed up with them and kicked Legions ass (a massive feat they wholeheartedly acknowledged and were thankful for). Titans suddenly appearing and trying to wipe Azeroth clean, even if that would seems to them as the only way, would be superbly jarring.

It would be incoherent with the Legion portrayal, but the Legion portrayal sucked dick, so if nixing it is the price to be paid for having an expansion with robots with an Ulduar aesthetic as the primary enemy group then fair enough. We should never have been on a first name basis with the Titans.

[allegrian]

Legion titans were just saved from the shivarra and other stuff (aggramar, Eonar), they barely had time to plan other stuff than what ended up happenning. They could see the midnight defeat against the void as proof we're not good enough, or be desperate to stop the void from reaching the world soul.

[Makabreska]

It would be incoherent with the Legion portrayal, but the Legion portrayal sucked dick, so if nixing it is the price to be paid for having an expansion with robots with an Ulduar aesthetic as the primary enemy group then fair enough. We should never have been on a first name basis with the Titans.

Ye well, and I think their portrayal was fine, given we just saved their asses. You wanna deal with Legion and Sarg, you gotta have Pantheon involved in a helpful way.

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Legion titans were just saved from the shivarra and other stuff (aggramar, Eonar), they barely had time to plan other stuff than what ended up happenning. They could see the midnight defeat against the void as proof we're not good enough, or be desperate to stop the void from reaching the world soul.

Again, suddenly deeming us "not good enough" after all those times we were more than good enough would be dumb af. But hey, expansion seems to be about Titans, so dunno.

[Vakir]

The titan characterization is as old as Wrath and the only times it hasn't been the case is when the Titans have been blando conversational benevolent gods in Legion, e.g. their worst portrayal.

Anduin's just really stupid, then. Or too trapped in self loathing to notice.

Even then regarding Titans, I will play devil's advocate that they were in a charitable mood both potentially having heard about a recent Reply Code Alpha and also weren't really in a position to be domineering while needing that time to assist with Argus and seal Sargeras.

Us failing partially in Midnight and them not having any confidence in us or a nascent Azeroth feels pretty in character even after Legion.

[Super Dickmann]

Ye well, and I think their portrayal was fine, given we just saved their asses. You wanna deal with Legion and Sarg, you gotta have Pantheon involved in a helpful way.

You didn't, you had written every confrontation with the Legion without it. In fact, you had to retcon yourself because you had killed the Pantheon off-screen in Chronicle. You specifically had to write the scenario where the Pantheon were not only actually alive, but kind grandfatherly figures setting up unique MacGuffins that could be combined to seal the tomb rather than apply their introduced contingencies of glassing the planet. It's only in Legion that we can freely talk to them and they are cast as essentially human figures. It's also what, until Dragonflight backed down on this characterization, caused the problem of having effectively solved the setting of having no higher instance to appeal to, hence Blizz creating the First Ones to serve as Ersatz gods.

[Nymrohd]

The titan characterization is as old as Wrath and the only times it hasn't been the case is when the Titans have been blando conversational benevolent gods in Legion, e.g. their worst portrayal. There is a case to be made that making the Light an iffy force rather than a force that can be used for an iffy cause is grasping at straws (it isn't, but it can be made), but the only Titan portrayals that didn't leave room for them to be an antagonistic force are also their very worst ones.

I mean even then we were saving their asses from Sargeras while they were at the nadir of their power so they had no reason to present themselves as anything different. Someone can present themselves like that and still be willing to wipe your entire planet after. Heck if the Titans are actually remorseful for wiping out people but still do it because they believe it is for the greater good, it would be even more striking than making them cold and unfeeling; a caring utilitarian that cries while killing you for the greater good is far more unnerving.

[Super Dickmann]

Even then regarding Titans, I will play devil's advocate that they were in a charitable mood both potentially having heard about a recent Reply Code Alpha and also weren't really in a position to be domineering while needing that time to assist with Argus and seal Sargeras.

Us failing partially in Midnight and them not having any confidence in us or a nascent Azeroth feels pretty in character even after Legion.

Oh, you can write around it. I think that's a feasible way to go by it and wouldn't really contradict anything. My criticism is more for the Legion portrayal as such and the place it penned the writers in.