Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[allegrian]

Ye well, and I think their portrayal was fine, given we just saved their asses. You wanna deal with Legion and Sarg, you gotta have Pantheon involved in a helpful way.

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Again, suddenly deeming us "not good enough" after all those times we were more than good enough would be dumb af. But hey, expansion seems to be about Titans, so dunno.

We've seen way dumber stuff recently anyways. Better to stay consistent with titans instead of "they really were evil since the begginning and are behind everything!!"

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Oh, you can write around it. I think that's a feasible way to go by it and wouldn't really contradict anything. My criticism is more for the Legion portrayal as such and the place it penned the writers in.

I think the main problem with Legion is that the Titans suddenly appeared in the story out of nowhere inside a single raid, they could have built up that during the expansion and not just in the chronicles book. We were told sice vanilla that the titans were gone and their lore was very scatrered. I wasn't oo informed of their lore even if their names appeared on the legion's mcguffins. I kinda forgot about their particular names and powers since vanilla+ulduar.

[Nymrohd]

I think the main problem with Legion is that the Titans suddenly appeared in the story out of nowhere inside a single raid, they could have built up that during the expansion and not just in the chronicles book. We were told sice vanilla that the titans were gone and their lore was very scatrered. I wasn't oo informed of their lore even if their names appeared on the legion's mcguffins. I kinda forgot about their particular names and powers since vanilla+ulduar.

Imagine having an overarching end game campaign that is about the Legion trying to siphon the parts of the Titan's souls that were send on Azeroth. You could have used the Warrior campaign with Odyn and made it available to everyone with the Legion trying to kidnap the Keepers in order to get those Titan essences. Maybe they would have gotten at Tyr's grave first and grabbed Aggramar explaining how they managed to corrupt him so fast. And ofc that would explain why Wrathion was nowhere; he'd been abducted to grab Aman'thul out of him and we could have found him in a cell in Antorus.

[allegrian]

Imagine having an overarching end game campaign that is about the Legion trying to siphon the parts of the Titan's souls that were send on Azeroth. You could have used the Warrior campaign with Odyn and made it available to everyone with the Legion trying to kidnap the Keepers in order to get those Titan essences. Maybe they would have gotten at Tyr's grave first and grabbed Aggramar explaining how they managed to corrupt him so fast. And ofc that would explain why Wrathion was nowhere; he'd been abducted to grab Aman'thul out of him and we could have found him in a cell in Antorus.

It may be a classic problem of them not having the full expansion story thought out at release, I hope the world soul saga shows much more planning and consistency in its story.

[Enrif]

...? The perspective is third person omniscient. If it were meant to be inaccurate or ambiguous, the verbage would be "Magni believes that it may be Azeroth" or something to that effect.

You are obviously wrong. Just let me post something like that:

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=htt...0pwhwm0v41.png

Guess we work with Denthrius against people like Dreven and the Accuser. Guess what, didn't happend. The log is always only showing the knowledge your character knows at the moment. There is no "third person omniscient". It is always in person view.

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The thing is, most of these are transparent as fuck or don't hold up to logic and were created for shock value, not with any actual grace.

They are not. You conflate your experience doing it back then, with what you knew after the fact.

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You're basically so wrong, even with the evidence slapped in your face. It's funny watching you try to prove some absolutely null and wrong point.

glad to entertain you. But i don't get what you get from your glee and vitriol.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Not sure about you, but I prefer when setting and story is not about white vs black.

To be fair, while I disagree with some of the original comment, the main issue is that it sometimes boils down with younger writers to making the guys who look bad good and vice-versa with some heavy-handed "religion bad" nonsense usually attached to it. Just doing the opposite of what would intuitively seem right in a '70s fantasy novel does not a true Michael Moorcock make.

Similarly, trying to apply moral grayness to metaphysical forces of good like the Light seems a bit unnecessary and just diminishes said force. It'd be like trying to make Plato's Form of the Good subject to moral scrutiny when the entire point is that it's supposed to be the overarching standard all goodness is measured against.

[Vakir]

You are obviously wrong. Just let me post something like that:

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=htt...0pwhwm0v41.png

Guess we work with Denthrius against people like Dreven and the Accuser. Guess what, didn't happend. The log is always only showing the knowledge your character knows at the moment. There is no "third person omniscient". It is always in person view.

Except this is correct for the point at which you have completed.

Sire Denathrius did dispatch you to deal with the defiant forces of the Accuser. He did, and they are defiant. That's a factual statement. The accommodated information later changes your perspective on Denathrius and his intentions, but none of them contradict it.

They are not. You conflate your experience doing it back then, with what you knew after the fact.

I've been here for almost 20 years. You can literally go back to Wrath era if you want to put in the time. It's documented.

Almost everyone knew at the time. They were obvious.

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To be fair, while I disagree with some of the original comment, the main issue is that it sometimes boils down with the new wave of writers to making the guys who look bad good and vice-versa with some heavy-handed "religion bad" nonsense usually attached to it.

This is so "old man," or in the case of Val, "pretentious young man, trying to appear an old soul, yells at cloud."

The amount of good Light and bad Void examples are disproportionate in the setting, even recently. For every Xe'ra, who isn't even actively antagonistic, you still have Anduin being a perfect paragon of virtue who is predominantly Light oriented and is held up as its champion.

We're gonna have outliers like the Arathi or the Void Elves, but this isn't a "there's precisely no difference between good things and bad things" meme or insane Nagito logic, it's just having a variety of stuff to kill.

[Nymrohd]

This is so "old man," or in the case of Val, "pretentious young man, trying to appear an old soul, yells at cloud."

The amount of good Light and bad Void examples are disproportionate in the setting, even recently. For every Xe'ra, who isn't even actively antagonistic, you still have Anduin being a perfect paragon of virtue who is predominantly Light oriented and is held up as its champion.

We're gonna have outliers like the Arathi or the Void Elves, but this isn't a "there's precisely no difference between good things and bad things" meme or insane Nagito logic, it's just having a variety of stuff to kill.

Some people at least on this site (I don't really follow many WoW places tbh) insist that Light itself is evil which just . . . makes little sense.

[Makabreska]

Some people at least on this site (I don't really follow many WoW places tbh) insist that Light itself is evil which just . . . makes little sense.

Kind dumb, when it's obvious Light is mostly like a SW Force, a tool for w/e you wanna do. Like, if Light is evil, then wtf Void and Fel are?

[Samin]

The thing is, blizzard does plot twists. They always did. Doesn't matter if they are done good or bad.

Westfall, Hope is in reality Vanessa Van Cleef

Muradin survived the betrayal of Arthas.

Illidan survived!

Kael'thas returning after Tempest Keep to defile the Sunwell to summon Kil'jaeden.

There mus always be a Lich King!

BfA was totally a old god expansion with a veneer of faction conflict.

Iridikorn not being the actual big bad of DF but Fyrak.

The list can go on and on. That the radiant song is not actually Azeroth is a classic plot twist that would fit into the upcoming narrative of Void versus Light.

Most of these are retcons played as a mystery, not planted plot twists. So it would be more like if after the world soul saga they suddenly decide "actually the world soul is silly, the radiant song was actually Sargeras shouting from his prison an AU jailer"

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Kind dumb, when it's obvious Light is mostly like a SW Force, a tool for w/e you wanna do. Like, if Light is evil, then wtf Void and Fel are?

Well, that's precisely the issue. Reducing every major cosmic force to "guys, it's just a tool that depends on how it's used" completely destroys any nuance or importance it could have in favor of just hammering in a totally relativist narrative.

This is so "old man," or in the case of Val, "pretentious young man, trying to appear an old soul, yells at cloud."

It's "pretentious young man" in my case as well, but I think reducing your interlocutor's problem to pretension is uncharitable and tacky. Just because people dislike a modern trend doesn't mean they're trying to project that they're "born in the wrong generation" or anything of that stripe—the trend can just be stupid in any age.

The amount of good Light and bad Void examples are disproportionate in the setting, even recently. For every Xe'ra, who isn't even actively antagonistic, you still have Anduin being a perfect paragon of virtue who is predominantly Light oriented and is held up as its champion.

Presently, yes, that's the case, even if they are still trying to create pointless and artificial moral ambiguity in the Light. I was talking about a wider fad I worry is starting to intrude, not something specific to the setting as-is.

[Makabreska]

Presently, yes, that's the case, even if they are still trying to create pointless and artificial moral ambiguity in the Light. I was talking about a wider fad I worry is starting to intrude, not something specific to the setting as-is.

Light has been like that since Vanilla, because again, it was a tool since Vanilla. Tool for healing and tool for killing. You went to Scarlet Monastery and their fanatics were blasting you with Holy Fire. You are now mixing up Light with Naaru.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Light has been like that since Vanilla, because again, it was a tool since Vanilla. Tool for healing and tool for killing. You went to Scarlet Monastery and their fanatics were blasting you with Holy Fire. You are now mixing up Light with Naaru.

You're confusing the Light as a force with the Light as a kind of magic. While Light magic is characterized as being able to be channeled through various means and for various purposes, the Light itself is characterized as a likely-sapient force with a deliberate will on multiple counts, especially post-TBC where the draenei hammer that position in pretty strongly.

[Raetary]

Some people at least on this site (I don't really follow many WoW places tbh) insist that Light itself is evil which just . . . makes little sense.

I think its just a misnomer.

Blizzard is trying to set up their cosmology as amoral as possible to expand their backlog of potential narrative and expansion themes.
So it's not that the Light is "evil", it's that Blizzard is setting up a antagonistic arc centered around the Light as the major driver.

[Nymrohd]

Well, that's precisely the issue. Reducing every major cosmic force to "guys, it's just a tool that depends on how it's used" completely destroys any nuance or importance it could have in favor of just hammering in a totally relativist narrative.

The existence of the First Ones gives all of the Forces instrumentality. But I don't think that is necessary reductive. Light is by literal divine design a positive force. This doesn't necessarily make it artificial but rather tautonym. It is not a simulation of Holiness but rather an incarnation of it.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The existence of the First Ones gives all of the Forces instrumentality. But I don't think that is necessary reductive. Light is by literal divine design a positive force. This doesn't necessarily make it artificial but rather tautonym. It is not a simulation of Holiness but rather an incarnation of it.

Au contraire, the First Ones are agents of total reduction for every cosmic force because they reduce the extent to which they can stand out on their own and "properly" influence the material universe in any state other than a perpetual status quo equilibrium with their perfectly-aligned counterparts. And that's just the macro-scale of it, given that they implicitly reduce living in itself to a scheme to cyclically harvest soul-juice for the Shadowlands.

[Foolicious]

Imagine having an overarching end game campaign that is about the Legion trying to siphon the parts of the Titan's souls that were send on Azeroth. You could have used the Warrior campaign with Odyn and made it available to everyone with the Legion trying to kidnap the Keepers in order to get those Titan essences. Maybe they would have gotten at Tyr's grave first and grabbed Aggramar explaining how they managed to corrupt him so fast. And ofc that would explain why Wrathion was nowhere; he'd been abducted to grab Aman'thul out of him and we could have found him in a cell in Antorus.

Looking back its really edivent that argus was a last minute addition. I'm sure if they just stuck with the original plan it would have been a better story. But that didn't lead to sylvanas being the main character so legion lore suffered because of that.

[Makabreska]

Looking back its really edivent that argus was a last minute addition. I'm sure if they just stuck with the original plan it would have been a better story. But that didn't lead to sylvanas being the main character so legion lore suffered because of that.

Argus, the headquarters of BL, was the last minute addition in expansion that was meant to finally deal with BL?

[Enrif]

Except this is correct for the point at which you have completed.

Sire Denathrius did dispatch you to deal with the defiant forces of the Accuser. He did, and they are defiant. That's a factual statement. The accommodated information later changes your perspective on Denathrius and his intentions, but none of them contradict it.

So, then you agree with my point that the quest summary about magni and the voice is only the story until then. That the voice could be something different is still on the table.

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Argus, the headquarters of BL, was the last minute addition in expansion that was meant to finally deal with BL?

I think, Argus the titan as a final boss was meant, not Argus the planet.

Making Argus the final boss instead of Sargeras was another of Blizzards many plot twists.

[Vakir]

It's "pretentious young man" in my case as well, but I think reducing your interlocutor's problem to pretension is uncharitable and tacky. Just because people dislike a modern trend doesn't mean they're trying to project that they're "born in the wrong generation" or anything of that stripe—the trend can just be stupid in any age.

You aren't the case here. Don't confuse this for disrespect. I'm targeting them because they never actually back up or defend their position. Show up, give wildly awful take, leave. Not the case in your history. Especially when they are framing it as a generational thing when it's just objectively wrong.

You can validly be concerned, I'm just saying, there's not a lot to support it going that route, and being frustrated with the possibility isn't anywhere near the same problem as coming in, making a blanket statement, and then fucking off without having the stones to argue for it, lol.

Presently, yes, that's the case, even if they are still trying to create pointless and artificial moral ambiguity in the Light. I was talking about a wider fad I worry is starting to intrude, not something specific to the setting as-is.

As @Makabreska said, it's a tool, and it kinda always has been. Even the Naaru are pretty explicitly benevolent because it says so in third-person omniscient supplementary materials. That just means benevolent from their perspective, obviously. Honestly, Illidan didn't consent to Xe'ra and rejected it, for example, but he'd still probably be more effective if he took on the power of a high-end Naaru on top of everything else and still wouldn't be a world-conquerer after for no reason.

They're more likely to have us fuse with Azeroth to punch Sargeras in the face in an anime showdown at the end of TLT than they are to have the Light be an antagonist, not the least of which is them being pretty explicit about the Light vs. Void conflict going down, their golden child being a Light paragon, and the setting's current creative figurehead a paladin main.

So, then you agree with my point that the quest summary about magni and the voice is only the story until then. That the voice could be something different is still on the table.

No, that's literally not what I'm saying.

My point is that nothing in that Revendreth summary is incorrect. Whether it's at 3/10 or 10/10 for chapters, the information saying "Denathrius sends us to..." is not incorrect. Us opposing Denathrius is an addition, but it doesn't change the facts of what he did earlier in that summary.

Meanwhile, if the same thing is saying the Radiant Song is Azeroth very explicitly, the only way to change that would be to go backwards and retroactively change what it actually said, which breaks the rules of how they do this. They'd be more inclined to say "Magni shared with us a theory that the Radiant Song might be Azeroth."

Your reading comprehension is so, so bad.

I think, Argus the titan as a final boss was meant, not Argus the planet.

Making Argus the final boss instead of Sargeras was another of Blizzards many plot twists.

Argus being the final boss is a "plot twist" the way that Necron being the final boss of Final Fantasy IX was a "plot twist." It's not, it's a complete swerve with no prior setup. In Argus' case, it's a concession to not have us defeat Sargeras to preserve his mystique while still giving us a major threat.

We know it's a last minute addition because Chronicle Vol 1. establishes that Azeroth is the last world soul that Sargeras is worried about after cleaving everything else possible, yet Argus not only has a world soul but is corrupted by Sargeras, which contradicts his original motivations. Same with the Dark Pantheon despite stating the Titans are dead.

These are retcons. They can retcon that the Radiant Song is the manifestation of all of Rhonin's fused hemorrhoids tomorrow if they wanted, but retconning a major plot beat established during Alpha is pretty fucking unlikely. Changes to say, Gorgrond, weren't like that.

[justwatching]

I really wonder if we will see thinks like Remix and Fated seasons during the trilogy. Would people be disappointed if we do? I am sure the most likely answer on what Remix people want next would be Legion.

I think given some of the hints we see from datamining(Illidan thing and recolors) there is almost certainly something happening with TBC soon.