Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Super Dickmann]

To be honest, I just don't expect any Mag'har development anytime soon. I got my hopes up during the Orc heritage questline because of how much it seemed like they cared about the different characters and clans, only for it to drop again when I learnt that the person in charge of the questline quit Blizzard shortly after.

As the foremost Mag'har appreciator I both don't expect them to do much and am unsure I want to, given that they're equally as likely to give them a fun sidequest as they are to have Geya'rah learn about love and peace.

[Santandame]

Looking forward to people sweating out the beta, treating it like it’s early access and then complaining everywhere a month or two into launch that they’re bored.

- - - Updated - - -

Gazlowe sucks compared to Gallywix and the writers getting rid of Gallywix in BFA while now allowing Geyarah to still be an asshole is mindboggling.

They finally made Gallywix likable and then kicked him out. Crazy stuff.

Speaking of Geyarah, I would much prefer the Maghar character to be a modernized soldier and engineer that actually leans into what made the Iron Horde special than.... mean brown orc wearing heritage armor.

The Maghar need to be made into what the Blackrock clan were in WoD.

Present them as the unified, industrialist might of the Horde. The big guns, so to speak. The Horde needs to resolve something by force? Send in the Maghar. Have them make up the bulk of the Horde armies. And for the love of god, industrialise parts of Kalimdor including a rail network.

[Cheezits]

To be honest, I just don't expect any Mag'har development anytime soon. I got my hopes up during the Orc heritage questline because of how much it seemed like they cared about the different characters and clans, only for it to drop again when I learnt that the person in charge of the questline quit Blizzard shortly after.

Considering that the Orcs homeland isn't set to appear for... six years or so, I'm afraid that the quality of the heritage questlines doesn't seem to play into whether or not they will get any development. The new Warsong leader appearing in TWW is a good sign however.

Sad to hear they are gone, as the heritage quest was great, but we really need to get past this idea that any race is just one good writer away from getting expansion focus. It's much more likely that these races aren't getting focus because the suits think (or somehow know) race-focus beyond Controversy'dorei doesn't make any money.

[Hitei]

Untrue, the most successful and popular leaders in-game are all either divine-right monarchs ruling by dint of bloodline (Anduin, Jaina) or ones who begin with an imperfect system in elections but then transition to absolute monarchy (Mekkatorque). But even if the narrative didn't make clear that the only way the savages overcame themselves would be by accepting the wisodm of a hereditary ruler, leadership structures are only partly a function of technology, and just as much reflect local social values, with personalistic systems both democratic or not having a big role in real life, let alone in a fantasy world where some people can mine rocks pretty good and others are twenty thousand year old prophetic demigods.

Have any of those really been truly successful as singular leaders?

Anduin did... well in a war that did not go well and had severe casualties where the Alliance didn't really gain much, and also underlined that the single ruler was a flawed concept, because the Night Elves were left largely on their own fighting a war in their lands while the other races were fighting scattered battles and a proxy naval war. Jaina helped out Kul Tiras alongside the Alliance heroes, but she was also not in charge until the very, very end of the storyline concerning the welfare of her country.

I think it's also important to point out that both of these characters failed individually. Anduin was saved from complete defeat at Lordaeron by Jaina, he got KT navy through the actions of Jaina, Genn, the Alliance champion and Wyrmbane. He was only able to lead well because Genn was there to act as constant advisement alongside Shaw and others. Jaina was immediately thrown in prison and only ultimately helped KT by virtue of Genn, Taelia, Cyrus, Fynn and the champion. If anything this is proof of how one person leading is bad and the actual success is a group of people leading.

Mekkatorque has led well enough, but also what has he done that's reinforced the idea that a king was a good choice? They lost their homeland, twice. He was incapcitated. The gnomes could have been operating this entire time with a council, or even no particular leadership at all, and would have been in the exact same place they are now. They're sort of barely even a cohesive nation, since they mostly just go off and do whatever they want or work in the various Alliance institutions and systems individually instead of in a united capacity.

[Cheezits]

I am all Council'd out, but for the Mag'har, it'd also mesh with their Iron Horde inspiration of having a Warlord for every clan. Years ago I wrote up a big post on this topic, the MU orc part is outdated, though I stand by most of it, but the Mag'har bit remains mostly current.

In response to this, I would skirt away from the honor theming for Mag'har and more towards "victory at any cost" because I have a hard time thinking that the standing army using aircraft carriers and grenades would be that into classical honor. I would also reduce the number of prominent clans to the ones that are not featured among the MU clans as of their heritage: this would include Shadowmoon, (most) Blackrock, Thunderlords and Laughing Skull. All four have a distinct thing going for them that is both scarier/spookier/more violent than the MU orcs. Burning Blade could also be used here as there isn't a distinct blademaster clan in MU and their BB turned into warlocks.

Scale way back on the ancestors/spirit worship outside of the Shadowmoon, who go super hard into it, somewhere between Void Elves with the Void and the Auchenai soulpriests. Maybe tie in mages through Gorian culture?

Sprinkle in some hints of Goblin culture with stuff like gun/explosive focus, radio music, pin-ups and their generally crass and crude culture. Not only is it lore-friendly but it would be incredibly funny and flavorful. I also can't help but think they'd love smoking though that may not fly with the ratings.

[allegrian]

They shouldnt be balancing the meme mode that's made for fun and be op, specially so late after so much people already got everything easily. It just disencourages being late to the mode or having less time to play.

[Vakir]

If Argus was its own expansion, would we really have had too many demons in Legion? Because the intro campaign was not at all demon heavy and neither were Nighthold and Tomb of Sargeras. Broken Shore was I guess. And I did make my post about how much visual variety was possible in an Argus expansion.

It's not a hard no but I do think it's an area that they would need to be cautious with. Nighthold still had a decent Legion boss ratio with Tichondrius, Gul'dan, Krosus and Tomb was still heavy on it with the Avatar, Kil'jaeden, the Inquisition, Goroth, on top of BC references like the Engine of Souls or fel corrupted aesthetic like Maiden.

PLUS the Broken Shore itself. Definitely would be a gamble to lean heavily into Argus but potentially one with a great payoff.

But yes, independently, Argus has enough for itself.

I do wonder how you'd do the same for a Black Empire expac. For me I'd want both Black Empire as well as Legion to be expansions that utilize the entire world of Azeroth but I fully realize something like that would not be popular.

I think it's a mixed situation. Obviously anytime they make a decentralized set of land masses it hasn't really worked out. But something that's an existential threat and is a huge payoff to a long running conflict feels weird to always overcentralize to some new random island that popped up. 8.3 had problems but I do think the idea of rotating invasions was a good call. A larger Black Empire situation SHOULD have had an impact in that sense.

That's kinda how I feel about Midnight. It's gonna be real goofy if everything in this big war chapter is centralized to just Quel'thalas and 2-3 other zones invented around it that are convenient new spots we've never heard of.

[Nymrohd]

It's not a hard no but I do think it's an area that they would need to be cautious with. Nighthold still had a decent Legion boss ratio with Tichondrius, Gul'dan, Krosus and Tomb was still heavy on it with the Avatar, Kil'jaeden, the Inquisition, Goroth, on top of BC references like the Engine of Souls or fel corrupted aesthetic like Maiden.

PLUS the Broken Shore itself. Definitely would be a gamble to lean heavily into Argus but potentially one with a great payoff.

But yes, independently, Argus has enough for itself.



I think it's a mixed situation. Obviously anytime they make a decentralized set of land masses it hasn't really worked out. But something that's an existential threat and is a huge payoff to a long running conflict feels weird to always overcentralize to some new random island that popped up. 8.3 had problems but I do think the idea of rotating invasions was a good call. A larger Black Empire situation SHOULD have had an impact in that sense.

That's kinda how I feel about Midnight. It's gonna be real goofy if everything in this big war chapter is centralized to just Quel'thalas and 2-3 other zones invented around it that are convenient new spots we've never heard of.

See with Midnight it works because they are clearly after the Sunwell.
For Black Empire what I was thinking is, keep Vale and Uldum but obviously have full expansion leveling stories connected to them. Add Ulduar to the mix (have N'zoth and the different Aqir go after all the Titan centers), add the Ahn'qiraj area plus Silithus and have Nyalotha phases for everything effectively doubling the zones.

[Murlocos]

They shouldnt be balancing the meme mode that's made for fun and be op, specially so late after so much people already got everything easily. It just disencourages being late to the mode or having less time to play.

And now people have found deleting your trinkets and such to lower your ilvl makes the bosses easier overall. Whack-a-mole continues.

Have any of those really been truly successful as singular leaders?

Anduin did... well in a war that did not go well and had severe casualties where the Alliance didn't really gain much, and also underlined that the single ruler was a flawed concept, because the Night Elves were left largely on their own fighting a war in their lands while the other races were fighting scattered battles and a proxy naval war. Jaina helped out Kul Tiras alongside the Alliance heroes, but she was also not in charge until the very, very end of the storyline concerning the welfare of her country.

For what it's worth, my personal interpretation of these events is also that Anduin is not a good leader. They're conscripting civilians early into the war, the whole of Lordaeron is a total strategic blunder from the onset that needs Deus Ex Jaina to magic them out of it not once but twice. He sets up ridiculous restrictions for his soldiers during the Siege of Dazar'alor (which ends up not being fully adhered to anyways as seen in Shadows Rising) and waffles alongside Jaina after a decisive victory about morality. He apparently has barely any forces to muster by 8.2.5. Just looking at how the war plays out, he's horrendous at his job.

And I think that's interesting! I think Anduin being a terrible leader, a poor warrior, a bad politician, etc. and the friction that creates with the other much more seasoned Alliance leaders and with Stormwind itself has a lot of storytelling potential. The 7.2 questline where you listen to gossiping civilians sets it up so clearly: he's a nice man, he has good intentions, but can he really lead, can he truly be relied on in times of crisis compared to Varian? They're interesting flaws that set up him as an intriguing foil to most of the cast.

But that's not what we actually got. Tyrande's dissent with him in 8.1 is the only instance where his ability and decisions are called into question, and we see how that went nowhere. War hawk Genn is neutered by Anduin and merely serves as another of his surrogate father figures to comfort him and tell him he's doing all he can. Nobody questions Anduin's waffling at their victory at Dazar'alor; he doesn't feel good about it, so they'll retreat and let the Horde regroup and gain strength again despite Shaw flat out saying the Horde is losing on all fronts and they could end the war in weeks. The epilogue of the war campaign shows all the civilians calmly expressing love for Anduin or at worst, vague skepticism that they wave over by him just being so nice. The start of DF has Shaw reiterate that people like Turalyon, but they miss Anduin. The human heritage questline states that Anduin has taken great stride in rooting out corruption in the House of Nobles (when did he find the time to do it? who knows).

The reasonable read of events that you and I have of Anduin's tenure as king does not line up with what the writing itself states over and over again. The stance of the story is that Anduin was a great king, beloved by his people while present and dearly missed while gone. There are no characters to state otherwise, so there's no point in accusing it of just being one point of view: it's every character's point of view. Nobody disagrees with Anduin's beliefs or philosophy without either ultimately conceding to him or dying. Hell, he went from being bad with a sword in MoP and the BfA cinematic to effortlessly cutting down bandits in the new short story. What can't he do? Well, take action, but don't worry, he'll self-deprecate about it so we can have someone else pat him on the back and tell him nothing is his fault as they blink and realize he reminds them so much of their son/brother/cousin/former roommate, and that he needs to be protected at all costs.

There are only two possibilities you can roll with:

1) Anduin is intended to be seen as an amazing leader with no meaningful flaws, and this is backed up by the story taking every chance to praise him and declining every chance to speak against him
2) Anduin is intended to be seen as a flawed leader, but his flaws are unacknowledged in any meaningful way and it's irrelevant as the greater cast are all becoming converts to his beliefs and will just do anything he can't

Anduin's no longer the intriguing foil he was in MoP. Quite the opposite, the whole world bends to fit him.

[Eldryth]

I do wonder how you'd do the same for a Black Empire expac. For me I'd want both Black Empire as well as Legion to be expansions that utilize the entire world of Azeroth but I fully realize something like that would not be popular.

I would have liked to see warped space bringing the various Old Gods' strongholds into one continent (or maybe a Emerald Dream-like pocket dimension showing the same). Ny'alotha as an ancient Old God capitol zone, surrounded by Ahn'Qiraj, a fully corrupted World Tree (maybe Andrassil or the Un'goro one from the Nightmare raid) with Azjol'Nerub at the roots, the Dread Wastes, and I guess Zin'Azshari for N'Zoth? All of these would be at the height of the Black Empire's power, so we could actually see the Mantid, Qiraji, Nerubians, and Naga civilizations at their peaks rather than the remnants we've encountered so far.

At least, that's what I hoped BFA would lead into years ago, before Ny'alotha was resolved in a patch. I had hoped for a (at least) two-expansion saga- where BFA would focus on the faction war to the end, and the Old God hints don't come to fruition until they launch a surprise attack and cripple both factions in the final raid, leading us to reclaim the world in the following expansion. I'm glad that they're finally willing to attempt longer stories like that, and it sounds like the transition from TWW and Midnight might actually resemble the defeat I had been hoping for, but I can't really imagine getting to see the Old God minion civilizations at their peak at this point, given how the story is developing.

[Vakir]

See with Midnight it works because they are clearly after the Sunwell.

For Black Empire what I was thinking is, keep Vale and Uldum but obviously have full expansion leveling stories connected to them. Add Ulduar to the mix (have N'zoth and the different Aqir go after all the Titan centers), add the Ahn'qiraj area plus Silithus and have Nyalotha phases for everything effectively doubling the zones.

They are, but you can't sustain a flashpoint of that size for a 1.5 year story. We've been there. Even with a new coat of paint to depict the physical space of Sunwell Plateau, how could they justify a goal to get there that's that much of a slow push where the Legion managed to snag it so effortlessly?

You need to diversify and expand a bit to make a threat interesting. Kind of like how the Legion was going for the Nightwell and Illidan but ALSO everything else we had to fight.

Just doing Nya'loatha versions of old zones probably wouldn't have been compelling enough. Actually going into Nya'loatha full time as a proper "continent" would have been a good eventuality with some diversity of the theme and getting a chance to go ham with the Cosmic Horror elements. You get the "everything is made of slimy tentacles" zone, the Nerubian zone, the Mantid zone, the Qiraji zone, the Faceless zone, etc. as options to get more fleshed out and have impossible and uncomfortable geometry rather than just "everything is compiled in one spot and vaguely Egyptian."

[Nymrohd]

They are, but you can't sustain a flashpoint of that size for a 1.5 year story. We've been there. Even with a new coat of paint to depict the physical space of Sunwell Plateau, how could they justify a goal to get there that's that much of a slow push where the Legion managed to snag it so effortlessly?

I fully expect the patch content will go into either the Void or K'aresh tbh.

And I have to ask, non-Euclidean geometry is awesome when you are doing artwork or even in a TTRPG but has any game really managed to do it justice in an interactive 3D environment?

[Santandame]

I fully expect the patch content will go into either the Void or K'aresh tbh.

And I have to ask, non-Euclidean geometry is awesome when you are doing artwork or even in a TTRPG but has any game really managed to do it justice in an interactive 3D environment?

I’m expecting patch content to be:

12.1 - Lordaeron /w Stratholme raid
12.1.5 - Scarlet Monastery mega dungeon
12.2 - K’aresh

Launch content as; Eversong, Ghostlands, Zul’aman, an island raised off the coast by Azshara; though I’d be lying if I didn’t say I would prefer Vashjir 2.0.

Then you can have the Sunwell as the opening raid, with the Isle for max level content.

Dungeon wise I think we’re looking at something like:

- Deatholme
- Sanctum of the Moon / Sun
- Falthrien Academy
- A dungeon involving Silvermoon City
- Zul’aman catacombs
- Naga dungeon
- Magisters Terrace remake

[Lady Atia]

Are the alpha realms down rn?

[Sondrelk]

See with Midnight it works because they are clearly after the Sunwell.
For Black Empire what I was thinking is, keep Vale and Uldum but obviously have full expansion leveling stories connected to them. Add Ulduar to the mix (have N'zoth and the different Aqir go after all the Titan centers), add the Ahn'qiraj area plus Silithus and have Nyalotha phases for everything effectively doubling the zones.

BfA really did screw us over with 8.3. That patch threw so many great ideas out as filler.
Want to see a true Mantid swarm? Best you get is a questline where you are told the Mantid have allied with N'zoth.
Want a return to the Qiraji in Silithus? Best we can do is let you kill some insects in a world quest.
Want a triumphant return of Ra-den and an exploration of Titan structures? Shame we only have time to briefly touch on the whole "tunnels spanning Pandaria connecting all installations".

[Nymrohd]

BfA really did screw us over with 8.3. That patch threw so many great ideas out as filler.
Want to see a true Mantid swarm? Best you get is a questline where you are told the Mantid have allied with N'zoth.
Want a return to the Qiraji in Silithus? Best we can do is let you kill some insects in a world quest.
Want a triumphant return of Ra-den and an exploration of Titan structures? Shame we only have time to briefly touch on the whole "tunnels spanning Pandaria connecting all installations".

I'll say again, the return of the Qiraji was wasted now with TWW. They should have kept Nerubians for TLT and done Qiraji in Azj'Kahet.

[Sondrelk]

I’m expecting patch content to be:

12.1 - Lordaeron /w Stratholme raid
12.1.5 - Scarlet Monastery mega dungeon
12.2 - K’aresh

Launch content as; Eversong, Ghostlands, Zul’aman, an island raised off the coast by Azshara; though I’d be lying if I didn’t say I would prefer Vashjir 2.0.

Then you can have the Sunwell as the opening raid, with the Isle for max level content.

I am still going to stand by my prediction of everything north of the Thandol Span being part of the expansion.
Tirisfal and other Forsaken levelling zones to tie up the Forsaken plotline and build towards Avaloren with the Scarlet Crusade. The Plaguelands to tie up the scourge invasion there, as well as leading into Stratholme eventually. The elf zones obviously. And the Hinterlands and Arathi Highlands for variety, in a similar vein to Centaur in DF.

[Vakir]

I fully expect the patch content will go into either the Void or K'aresh tbh.

Most likely. But even for that initial launch, I'd be surprised if the Void didn't bleed elsewhere.

And I have to ask, non-Euclidean geometry is awesome when you are doing artwork or even in a TTRPG but has any game really managed to do it justice in an interactive 3D environment?

In terms of being traversable, no. It would be partly skybox or set dressing. But there's still a lot on the table stylistically to go through that they didn't and so many enemy variations that have been Old God aligned that they crammed into such a small space.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Have any of those really been truly successful as singular leaders?

What about Velen, the objectively religiously-correct, multi-millennia old theocratic prophet? Also, Turalyon is a de facto military dictator who has consistently been successful in war and is seemingly running a tight ship at peace.

If anything this is proof of how one person leading is bad and the actual success is a group of people leading.

This seems to be more indicative of the importance of alliances and international friendships among monarchs than inherent proof of the supremacy of multiple leaders within a single system.

Sprinkle in some hints of Goblin culture with stuff like gun/explosive focus, radio music, pin-ups and their generally crass and crude culture. Not only is it lore-friendly but it would be incredibly funny and flavorful. I also can't help but think they'd love smoking though that may not fly with the ratings.

That seems very difficult to reconcile with their pseudo-fascistic, military-dominated social order.

- - - Updated - - -

Part of it is that the leaders have to be boring, but I also think part of it is that the Maghar were infinitely doomed to the BFA era "compromising" where they also had to hit the same notes of the MU Maghar that people (for whatever reason) also wanted. Hence why their race mount is a generic wolf and their racials are all about being Orcy Orcs instead of focusing on their unique background and culture. They racials should be about using guns and radios, not ancestors. Their mount should've been an iron star wheelie or some kind of motorcycle on steroids.

It doesn't really matter as they immediately pivoted to the engineer thing with their quests in BFA 8.1 but still, it kneecapped them a bit. I realize wish they would lean in more to the technology and their unique clans (Shadowmoon/Laughing Maw/BB). Now that the green orcs are being traditional again we can let these guys be modern.

I think making them "modern" would dramatically undermine the fantasy and completely fail to mesh with the base concept of "industrialized ultramilitarist orc". Their form of industrialism should be consistently more militant and gritty than, say, goblins, and they ought to remain more solidly slotted into that "anachronistic military industrialism" niche (cf. Warcraft II) rather than become yet another race that's excessively modernized. The S.E.L.F.I.E. camera and its consequences must not be hammered in further.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that at this point it's hard to justify most races and factions not being council based. They're not stupid, they're (socially) largely beyond the feudal era and into to the period where populism should be the default

You're skipping over a number of major points, namely absolutism, which — despite being one of the worst mistakes in European history behind Austrian painter man and a total downgrade in every conceivable way from feudalism — is far closer to the apparent time period the setting is trying to channel in the rare case they focus it in any capacity. More pertinently, "populism" only became the default around the beginning of the 20th century. Up until then, we had a transitory period of constitutional monarchies, absolutism, emerging merchant classes, and the struggle of emergent capitalism and mercantilism.

Which actually brings to mind the other point, which is that Azeroth hasn't really had a general shift towards true market economies, and only a few societies seem to use division of labor. With capitalism exclusively existing in goblin society, we're not likely to see the merchant class fully challenge the royalty just yet, and by extension we're not likely to see that much progress towards individualism. Similarly, we also are unlikely to see much in the way of Marxist-analogue thought since that school of thought has very little capitalism to respond to.

[Scyth]

So beta starts next week which means TWW launch will most definitely be in September, possibly second week?
I saw someone on reddit say that DF Beta to launch was 88 days so if the same applies to TWW we should see it in September.

Wonder if Shamans and Hunters will get big reworks like other classes have got. Seems odd that they have received basically 0 communication during Alpha, does not bode well.