Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

The Titans didn't tell us anything.
Our in-universe knowledge on Azeroth being a Titan came from Magni and Alleria, as well as our very very direct confrontation with Argus.



I'd say the opposite.
World Souls are Titans, but Titans as comsic creatures are likely just not tied to Order at all, but rather sentient confluences of vast cosmic potential.

I think Order just managed to snag Aman'thul first, either deliberately or by chance, who then in turn ordered the rest of the Pantheon when found.

What do you think is the Order Pantheon then?

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The Light can be used for evil and the Light is inherently an evil, dominative force are two completely different things.

You do realize that the Light isn't inherently evil either, yeah? To assume that would be to completely miss the point of these forces.

Seriously, some of y'all need to actually play the damn game or look shit up.

[Ersula]

Always difficult to say how much of TWW was even actualized when DF itself was still in its concept stage. Personally I think any sort of subversive "Titans are evil" or "the Light is evil" is swiftly dropped and will never been seen again with the changing of the guard.

Metzen had been back at Blizzard almost a year before TWW was revealed. Just because Metzen likes the titans as characters doesn't mean he's against portraying them dubiously. He liked Garrosh & you see where that went.

You do realize that the Light isn't inherently evil either, yeah? To assume that would be to completely miss the point of these forces.

We're getting into the juiciest discourse of all: Gentlemen, how would you define evil?

[Joshuaj]

Nan that was the old lore he doesn’t say all forsaken would go there in the novel jsut that the arbiter sent her there.

Tbf here, even IF that were still the case, I doubt Zovaal would want to tell Sylvanas that the souls of her people are damned to the Maw no matter what, due to them being touched by Frostmourne, or at the very least the Scourges' influence.

Reminder, he was trying to bring her to his side.

[Ersula]

Tbf here, even IF that were still the case, I doubt Zovaal would want to tell Sylvanas that the souls of her people are damned to the Maw no matter what, due to them being touched by Frostmourne, or at the very least the Scourges' influence.

Reminder, he was trying to bring her to his side.

He didn't explain that part obviously. He tricked her. That was the whole point. The entire universe was broken. He just didn't let her know it was largely broken because of him.

But existentially & mortally, her & her army, the forsaken were in the same boat, so to speak.

[Joshuaj]

Metzen had been back at Blizzard almost a year before TWW was revealed. Just because Metzen likes the titans as characters means he's against portraying them dubiously. He liked Garrosh & you see where that went.
We're getting into the juiciest discourse of all: Gentlemen, how would you define evil?

What do you mean "how do you define evil"? If you have any form of malicious intent, then I'd definitely consider that to be evil.

All 6 forces may see eachother in a negative light, or in a positive light, but fundamentally,they see neither good or evil. They simply wish to spread their influence across the Cosmos.

Hell, even the Jailer, who tbf was seen as malicious by his fellow Pantheon members for going against the Cosmic design of the Progenitors, was fundamentally still spreading Death's influence in his own way, and he still wanted what he thought was best for the Cosmos. And in his eyes, if the Cosmos isn't willing to unite, then he'll force them into 1 rule. His rule, for he believes his rule will save them from the 7th.

I'm not saying that's a good thing. Hell, to us, that's fucking horrible, but to him, torment and chains are required for ultimate success.

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He didn't explain that part obviously. He tricked her. That was the whole point. The entire universe was broken. He just didn't let her know it was largely broken because of him.

But existentially & mortally, her & her army, the forsaken were in the same boat, so to speak.

I...I just said that lol.

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Idk, I just hate the idea that the Titans aren't the Pantheon of Order. That just feels so fucking dumb and kinda ruins multiple expansions of lore.

What I WOULD like however is the idea that the Titans are in the Beyond for a specific reason, and that while Azeroth is a Titan, she is not the last of them. In fact, my theory goes so far as to say she was the first of the Progenitors children.

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Remember these words from years back: "she is not the last, but the first". And notice how the Cosmic Pattern has a lot of seeming links towards Azeroth? Also also notice how the Titans like to take a LOT from the Progenitors seemingly? Mmhmmmm

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I don't think she is a First One, but I doubt she is the Last Titan

[Khaza-R]

You do realize that the Light isn't inherently evil either, yeah? To assume that would be to completely miss the point of these forces.

Seriously, some of y'all need to actually play the damn game or look shit up.

I never said it was?

Metzen had been back at Blizzard almost a year before TWW was revealed. Just because Metzen likes the titans as characters doesn't mean he's against portraying them dubiously. He liked Garrosh & you see where that went.

Not denying that at all. They've always been portrayed as sort of impersonal creators who only really care about Azeroth for their own means. That also doesn't mean they will straight up end up being raid bosses.

[Ersula]

I...I just said that lol.

I said it first. And you missed it completely.

I'm not saying that's a good thing. Hell, to us, that's fucking horrible, but to him, torment and chains are required for ultimate success.

Yes, but Illidan operated under the same mentality & the narrative frames him as good. Illidan, Sylvanas, Zovaal & Wrathion all had this rationality, while Iridikron just wants vengeance.

If "malice" is the only defining factor, why are Sylvanas & Zovaal framed negatively while Wrathion & Illidan are not? Is it because they succeeded in what they were trying to do? Is Wrathion off the hook because it was an accident or because the people of azeroth ultimately succeeded at a goal he really didn't help with at all?

[Makorus]

Both of these guys have had benevolent end goals, the protection and preservation of Azeroth, safeguarding it from the Legion and Void threats.
They are both just reckless and had terrible plans that blew up in their face.

Iridikron literally sold the world to the Void, consequences be damned, just in an effort to enact vengeance on the titans.

Except he didn't sell the world to the Void.

That is clearly not his goal because the whole thing of the Primalists is that the world(soul) should stay untouched.

Iridikrons goal is just as noble and essentially a different flavour of Illidans and Wrathions goal: Don't try to claim our world for yourself, you big cosmic power.

[Ersula]

Except he didn't sell the world to the Void.

That is clearly not his goal because the whole thing of the Primalists is that the world(soul) should stay untouched.

??? The Primalists never directly worked for Iridikron & he never made this distinction. That was the point of discourse between Iridikron & Vyranoth: Iridikron & Fyrakk are fine destroying the planet, they just want revenge on the Titans. His goal of destroying the titans has nothing to do with reversing their influence on Azeroth.

Iridikrons goal is just as noble and essentially a different flavour of Illidans and Wrathions goal: Don't try to claim our world for yourself, you big cosmic power.

At no point does Iridikron say this. This is Vyranoth's goal & its why she betrays them.

[huth]

Right. Damn, if only there was another dragon who did things that cost hundreds and thousands of lives for a larger pay-off in the end yet is generally liked by the player base and actively allied with the player

If you haven't noticed yet that Iridikron doesn't give a shit about anybody but himself, i'm not sure how to help you.

Wrathion acted specificially to protect the world, even if his plan was stupid. Iridikron acts purely out of selfish desires.

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Except he didn't sell the world to the Void.

That is clearly not his goal because the whole thing of the Primalists is that the world(soul) should stay untouched.

Iridikrons goal is just as noble and essentially a different flavour of Illidans and Wrathions goal: Don't try to claim our world for yourself, you big cosmic power.

Yes he did. And he didn't care because he doesn't give a shit about Azeroth. If you haven't noticed, the primalists are deluded fools who just think they're helping while actively making things worse, too.

Iridikron's goal is not noble and it isn't what you think.

[Lady Atia]

So, it seems like they did add another doggo mount entry to retail a few days ago?

https://x.com/keyboardturn/status/1794532412619190775

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Tbf here, even IF that were still the case, I doubt Zovaal would want to tell Sylvanas that the souls of her people are damned to the Maw no matter what, due to them being touched by Frostmourne, or at the very least the Scourges' influence.

Reminder, he was trying to bring her to his side.

Well we already know it’s hot the case due to both the scourge members in maldruxxus and Uther so it would be a weird thing to being up any way as Sylvanas would see it as a lie once she started looking into there main enemies.

[Ersula]

Well we already know it’s hot the case due to both the scourge members in maldruxxus and Uther so it would be a weird thing to being up any way as Sylvanas would see it as a lie once she started looking into there main enemies.

For Sylvanas, Kel'thuzad not being in the maw would just further the point that the entire universe is fundamentally broken.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

For Sylvanas, Kel'thuzad not being in the maw would just further the point that the entire universe is fundamentally broken.

Sure it would but it would also prove the jailer was lying to her if he said all undead went to the maw.

[Ersula]

Sure it would but it would also prove the jailer was lying to her if he said all undead went to the maw.

I said Forsaken. Because if she was going to the maw for what she did as their faction leader, they would also be going there. Actions Sylvanas would definitely feel are defensible.

Placing Frostmorne on Azeroth & killing Argus were not done by Zovaal & nobody knew of the extent he was manipulating Sargeras so she would not have been able to see past his deception.

[Makorus]

If you haven't noticed yet that Iridikron doesn't give a shit about anybody but himself, i'm not sure how to help you.

Wrathion acted specificially to protect the world, even if his plan was stupid. Iridikron acts purely out of selfish desires.

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Yes he did. And he didn't care because he doesn't give a shit about Azeroth. If you haven't noticed, the primalists are deluded fools who just think they're helping while actively making things worse, too.

Iridikron's goal is not noble and it isn't what you think.

We can talk in like 5 years when we will be allied with Iridikron

[Ersula]

We can talk in like 5 years when we will be allied with Iridikron

Even if everything the Titans might be guilty of turns out to be true, it would still make more sense to ally with the Titans against Iridikon.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I said Forsaken. Because if she was going to the maw for what she did as their faction leader, they would also be going there. Actions Sylvanas would definitely feel are defensible.

Placing Frostmorne on Azeroth & killing Argus were not done by Zovaal & nobody knew of the extent he was manipulating Sargeras so she would not have been able to see past his deception.

That would be an even easier lie to see through and be at odd with the other things he was trying to convince her of as there were always forsaken that didn’t see eye to eye or go along with her and if your whole faction could get sent to the afterlife due to agreeing with the actions of your leader tons of family’s would togather and there would be no problem with how the arbiter was doing things.

All of the forsaken going to the maw just isn’t a thing for why she joined the jailer.

[Joshuaj]

I never said it was?



Not denying that at all. They've always been portrayed as sort of impersonal creators who only really care about Azeroth for their own means. That also doesn't mean they will straight up end up being raid bosses.

Yes you did.

To quote: "Always difficult to say how much of TWW was even actualized when DF itself was still in its concept stage. Personally I think any sort of subversive "Titans are evil" or "the Light is evil" is swiftly dropped and will never been seen again with the changing of the guard."

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I said it first. And you missed it completely.Yes, but Illidan operated under the same mentality & the narrative frames him as good. Illidan, Sylvanas, Zovaal & Wrathion all had this rationality, while Iridikron just wants vengeance.

If "malice" is the only defining factor, why are Sylvanas & Zovaal framed negatively while Wrathion & Illidan are not? Is it because they succeeded in what they were trying to do? Is Wrathion off the hook because it was an accident or because the people of azeroth ultimately succeeded at a goal he really didn't help with at all?

No. We said the exact same thing. I said the Jailer didn't want to tell Sylvanas these things cause he wanted to bring her to his side. You made the same point but elaborated on it further. No idea what you're tryna debate here.

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Also, Wrathion and Illidan do their things based off their moral compass. Sylvanas does the exact same thing. We just happen to see Wrathion and Illidans views as beneficial to us and Azeroth, while with Sylvanas...well...not so much.

These guys see good and evil and for some of them, we see their views as just, while.for others we tend to disagree.

Zovaal doesn't see good and evil. He wishes to spread his influence on the cosmology in his own way, and if he has to break the rules of the Cosmos in order for the Cosmic Pattern to endure, then he'll see it through. Doesn't matter if he lies or not cause he doesn't see it as evil or good.

[Ersula]

Zovaal doesn't see good and evil. He wishes to spread his influence on the cosmology in his own way, and if he has to break the rules of the Cosmos in order for the Cosmic Pattern to endure, then he'll see it through. Doesn't matter if he lies or not cause he doesn't see it as evil or good.

So if his thesis was correct & that something else is going to come along & destroy the entire universe, would that make him good or evil? Does that imply evil survives while good is doomed to utter annihilation? If he sincerely believes that was the only way to save the universe, how can that be evil?

That would be an even easier lie to see through and be at odd with the other things he was trying to convince her of as there were always forsaken that didn’t see eye to eye or go along with her and if your whole faction could get sent to the afterlife due to the actions of your leader tons of family’s would togather and there would be no problem with how the arbiter was doing things.

All of the forsaken going to the maw just isn’t a thing for why she joined the jailer.

I think you're focusing on semantics of something that wasn't even the point of the original comment. Sylvanas finding one forsaken that didn't end up in the maw would not falsify anything the Jailer originally presented. "This one singular person was sent to the appropriate afterlife so I guess nothing needs fixing" is not a thought that would go thru Sylvanas' brain.