Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Teriz]

Expansions just being new content and not bringing completely new features every time is... fine I think? Like, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love figuring out/digging into new features but I'm not sure it's healthy for the game if they just keep pumping out new features, especially if it creates a bigger load for maintaining them in the future, which already shows its face every time when they do add a new feature either having to disable it in old content entirely or having to add workarounds.

Almost everything in TWW feels like building on top of and refining existing features to me and I'm fine with that. WoW is an old game, innovating is great but sitting the hell down every now and then while 'feature teams' (this doesn't actually exist, but easier to reference) work on stuff more in the future (which they are) isn't a bad thing.

They are continuing to build out wows core gameplay foundation going forward.

DF revamped professions, world content and reps.
TWW adds another endgame pillar aimed at solo and world content players, adds a more approachable and long term talent progression system as well as enacts their changed design philosophy on stuff being account bound.

As well as more races and expanding Skyriding.

I get that there is no major shiny thing that people can point to and yell out in excitement, but i don't think the expansion necessarily needs it either.
They should not add big features for the sake of marketing.

Okay, but we couldn't at least get 2 new races, or 4 ARs like we got in BFA?

Sorry, but TWW seems like Blizzard is phoning it in and riding on DF's accomplishments. Maybe we'll get some insane new stuff over the course of the expansion, but after DF, this just seems like a downgrade.

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Can you elaborate on this? Isn't Warbands just QoL changes and a new char selection screen?

How is any of this "new feature" instead of just nice QoL bonuses?

This all just seems like a bunch of nice QoL changes that would be included in a x.1.5 patch.

Hmm, good point. I guess even Warbands aren't anything to write home about either.

[Marlamin]

Okay, but we couldn't at least get 2 new races, or 4 ARs like we got in BFA?

Sorry, but TWW seems like Blizzard is phoning it in and riding on DF's accomplishments. Maybe we'll get some insane new stuff over the course of the expansion, but after DF, this just seems like a downgrade.

You're basically saying "okay, but I disagree" which is fine. I personally wouldn't care for another race, we're already getting another subrace as it is which hype seems pretty low for in the circles I'm in. I wouldn't be surprised if the Harronir become available as AR during the expansion, but the same goes for some of the DF races (or SL) which hasn't happened.

EDIT: I'm not even sure if we're going to be getting load of "insane new stuff" throughout TWW. There's some stuff coming we've seen hints of publicly and privately, but TWW definitely seems very content and QoL focused, which personally I don't mind. My priorities have never been new races/classes though, so we probably just differ there.

[Jastall]

be honest with yourself, isn't what i said at least partially true? tww has 4 major features and 3 out of 4 could have been part of a normal patch.

And?

What was Mists's big new feature? A class, yes, and a race, both of which are among the lowest played of their category. Scenarios which they jettisoned before the xpack was out, even if the tech is now only mostly for solo content. And crossrealm which many would argue has done more harm than good but w/e. That's not a Legion tier feature list, yet it's still a very popular expansion due to its quality and great support.

Hell take beloved Wrath. It added Death Knights, mounted combat and, uh, that's kind of it on launch. Post launch it added LFG dungeons I suppose but launch wise Wrath wasn't anything too special.

Personally I'm totally fine with Blizzard using expansions to mostly refine the game's core and not redefine everything and add systems on top of other gratuitous systems for the mere sake of padding the feature list. It worked out great for Dragonflight gameplay wise so I'd let them keep at it.

[Teriz]

You're basically saying "okay, but I disagree" which is fine. I personally wouldn't care for another race, we're already getting another subrace as it is which hype seems pretty low for in the circles I'm in. I wouldn't be surprised if the Harronir become available as AR during the expansion, but the same goes for some of the DF races (or SL) which hasn't happened.

I'm saying that maybe we don't need the number of new features we got in DF, but getting a single AR is pathetic in comparison to what we've gotten in previous expansions.

[Marlamin]

I'm saying that maybe we don't need the number of new features we got in DF, but getting a single AR is pathetic in comparison to what we've gotten in previous expansions.

And that's a perfectly fine opinion to have, I just don't share it as I don't really care for new races or classes personally. I won't judge TWW on that in the slightest (nor have I judged it yet as I've actually not played through Beta this time around).

[Teriz]

And?

What was Mists's big new feature? A class, yes, and a race, both of which are among the lowest played of their category. Scenarios which they jettisoned before the xpack was out, even if the tech is now only mostly for solo content. And crossrealm which many would argue has done more harm than good but w/e. That's not a Legion tier feature list, yet it's still a very popular expansion due to its quality and great support.

Hell take beloved Wrath. It added Death Knights, mounted combat and, uh, that's kind of it on launch. Post launch it added LFG dungeons I suppose but launch wise Wrath wasn't anything too special.

Personally I'm totally fine with Blizzard using expansions to mostly refine the game's core and not redefine everything and add systems on top of other gratuitous systems for the mere sake of padding the feature list. It worked out great for Dragonflight gameplay wise so I'd let them keep at it.

Uh, new classes and races are something special, even if you don't play them. New classes completely alter the way the game is played, even for people not playing the new class themselves.

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And that's a perfectly fine opinion to have, I just don't share it as I don't really care for new races or classes personally. I won't judge TWW on that in the slightest (nor have I judged it yet as I've actually not played through Beta this time around).

How is saying that getting 2 completely new races (or a new class) is a bigger feature to the game than a single AR an opinion?

[Marlamin]

How is saying that getting 2 completely new races is a bigger feature to the game than a single AR an opinion?

You brought up the races in the first place as an example of judging an expansions lacklusterness, that is an opinion. I personally do not care for that, you do, that's fine.

[Teriz]

You brought up the races in the first place as an example of judging an expansions lacklusterness, that is an opinion. I personally do not care for that, you do, that's fine.

So is it fair to say that a single AR as an expansion feature is less effort than 2 new races as an expansion feature?

[Marlamin]

So is it fair to say that a single AR as an expansion feature is less effort than 2 new races as an expansion feature? Yes or no?

I don't think that's something up for debate? Obviously it is less effort?

Do I judge an expansions lacklusterness on that? No, I don't care for it. I do not see the point you're trying to make here.

All I'm saying and have been saying is, TWW doesn't need that to be good in my opinion. I don't know if it is yet, but I don't think another race would make me swing either way.

[Teriz]

I don't think that's something up for debate? Obviously it is less effort?

Do I judge an expansions lacklusterness on that? No, I don't care for it. I do not see the point you're trying to make here.

All I'm saying and have been saying is, TWW doesn't need that to be good in my opinion. I don't know if it is yet, but I don't think another race would make me swing either way.

Fair enough. I'm also hoping for a good expansion, but the lack of new features simply has me concerned. Hopefully we'll get more features as the expansion rolls on.

[Cheezits]

So is it fair to say that a single AR as an expansion feature is less effort than 2 new races as an expansion feature?

It is less effort, but we have seen things that take a lot of effort (Pandaren, Kul Tiran, Dracthyr) be very unpopular, so unpopular in fact that people to this day lie or are mistaken about how much effort went into Kul Tirans to downplay them.

It doesn't matter how much effort is put into an expansion feature if said feature isn't liked. Which is why they aren't putting that much energy into races right now.

I don't expect any more features for TWW besides Harronir, who will have crazy druid forms, Brawlers Guild introduced in an evergreen form, and maybe Earthen druids.

[Reive]

working on the core aspects of the game is fine and not every expansion should have something groundbreaking, but it has become a habit for blizzard to sell qol stuff as expansion features. even dragonflight was like this. evokers and dragonriding aside, the rest of the features were talents rework, ui and profession changes. those things are fine but they don't really have that much of a staying power. no one is going to care about the ui rework 1 week into the new expansion.

another problem i see with tww specifically, and that not enough people talk about, is that the campaign is super short. for an expansion that should focus a lot on the story, isn't that kinda weird? either they're saving most things for midnight or we're getting close to scam levels with blizzard.

[micwini]

Expansions are like class rotations. You have builders and spenders.
DF and TWW are builders. DF from a more base standpoint and TWW from an account-wide standpoint + adding a third pillar of gameplay.

Midnight and TLT are going to be spenders. Socks off lads.

[Varodoc]

Genuine question: Am I supposed to be hyped for one allied race?

Are we forgetting that BfA brought 10 allied races? Why are we fine with only 1 allied race when we used to get 10 in the past?

I at least hope Harronir Elves will be playable in a later patch.

[Zardas]

Uh, new classes and races are something special, even if you don't play them. New classes completely alter the way the game is played, even for people not playing the new class themselves.

Depends on how you play the game. I haven't played Dracthyr yet and I don't thing they had any impact on my experience of the game.

Ultimately, it's pointless to discuss the impact of x or y feature because it all comes down to personnal preferences : personnaly I don't craft and haven't played dracthyr (yet), so those feautres might have not been shiped in DF and my experience would have been the same ; meanwhile I'm very much looking forward to the warband system and delves, as they perfectly aligned to how I play the game. But for someone else, the situation might be a complete opposite, so the impact of each of those features will drastically change if you go look through his personnal perpective of the game.

[Reive]

Genuine question: Am I supposed to be hyped for one allied race?

Are we forgetting that BfA brought 10 allied races? Why are we fine with only 1 allied race when we used to get 10 in the past?

I at least hope Harronir Elves will be playable in a later patch.

they didn't even pick a cool one. no one asked for another dwarf reskin.

[Darkarath]

1. The hero talents are an expansion of the existing talent system introduced in DF. I wouldn't consider that a new feature either. We were going to get 10 additional talent points anyway, Blizzard simply found a new way to implement those 10 additional talents. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but considering it on par with a brand new talent system is ridiculous.

2.Dragonriding for additional mounts was implemented in Dragonflight. It's not a new feature, but instead a continuation of something we were already getting.

3. An allied race is simply not comparable to a completely new race. Earthen are essentially dwarves with a new model and new racials. Dracthyr were a completely new model and unlike any previous class we had. They were also the first new race completely attached to a new class.

4. Comparing Delves to a new class is laughable. Delves are essentially Scenarios 2.0.

5. I'll give you Warbands as a legitimate new feature.

In the end, the point still stands; TWW is lacking in new features compared to Dragonflight.

Oh, I was not listing the features of DF and TWW as a one-to-one comparison. I was merely naming every new feature or ''new thing''. Although now that I see the format in which I wrote it I understand the confusion.

I agree with most of your criticism, I am especially concerned about Hero Talents, as it is a feature that might make the game worst for certain players and there will not be a way to turn back after they are implemented.

I do not share your opinion about Delves. You might be right, but until we test them properly I will not pass judgment.

Expansions just being new content and not bringing completely new features every time is... fine I think? Like, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love figuring out/digging into new features but I'm not sure it's healthy for the game if they just keep pumping out new features, especially if it creates a bigger load for maintaining them in the future, which already shows its face every time when they do add a new feature either having to disable it in old content entirely or having to add workarounds.

This is a very good point. I always want more evergreen features but WoW is an old game with tons of content. It could be overwhelming.

I am ok with TWW refining current systems, which it is what it seems to be doing. Every time they make an expansion they add Dungeons, Raids, Zones, thousands of quests, QoL improvements, at least a new feature... It is a lot. Keep building on what we have, for example:

- The Timewalking system has so much potential, keep building it. Expand it to raids, cut raids in pieces and make them dungeons, give us reasons to re-explore those all zones and questlines again.
- PvP has been abandoned, but Plunderstorm showed that it could be innovative and successful. More of this, please.
- Professions in general need to be evolved, DF's revamp has to be the first step of years of updates. They NEED to be their own thing, like Dungeons, Raids and PvP, which ATM they are not.
- Warbands are coming, and it is a good system, but already lacking. We know that it is going to be expanded to past expansions. Keep adding account-wide achievements, currencies, and of course, professions.
- Archeology and the Brawler's Guild are coming back as evergreen systems. This is good. Hopefully they get it right this time.
- Regarding races, I guess that I have the impopular opinion that they should have stop adding them a while ago. They keep giving us Allied Races which bring nothing to the the table and could have been Race customizations instead. Which is what they should be doing. Bring every race to the level of customization of Dracthyrs. This should have been done yesterday.

[Zardas]

they didn't even pick a cool one. no one asked for another dwarf reskin.

I did, anything drawven is cool.

[Reive]

I did, anything drawven is cool.

the new dwarf race doesn't even have the classic dwarven accent, they're not cool at all

[KOUNTERPARTS]

they didn't even pick a cool one. no one asked for another dwarf reskin.

Players, both current and former, have been asking for playable Earthen dwarves since WotLK. This is the same lame argument people made against Dark Iron dwarves even though people were asking to play as them since vanilla WoW.