Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Teriz]

Except Undermine was always neutral and still is. And, looking to the development of TWW, any Undermine raid will be a joint Horde/Alliance venture. We can see that with the Earthen training.

I’m not seeing how Undermine being neutral changes the fact that it’s still a Goblin city run by Goblins and will be a massive lore dump and storyline for one of the playable Horde races who have connections to that location.

I mean, Gazlowe himself has neutral leanings.

[Makorus]

I’m not seeing how Undermine being neutral changes the fact that it’s still a Goblin city run by Goblins and will be a massive lore dump and storyline for one of the playable Horde races who have connections to that location.

So it's going to be a Horde story because Horde races are gonna be there, regardless of the location.

gee thanks what smart insight.

Undermine inherently is neutral i.e. not a horde-centric location.

[Teriz]

So it's going to be a Horde story because Horde races are gonna be there, regardless of the location.

gee thanks what smart insight.

Undermine inherently is neutral i.e. not a horde-centric location.

Yeah it’s a Horde story because it’s likely to revolve around 2 horde faction leaders; Gazlowe and Gallywix, and give a neglected Horde race some much needed lore and their homeland back.

[Timester]

I’m not seeing how Undermine being neutral changes the fact that it’s still a Goblin city run by Goblins and will be a massive lore dump and storyline for one of the playable Horde races who have connections to that location.

I mean, Gazlowe himself has neutral leanings.

Is Teldrassil Horde content because the Forsaken now have undead Kaldorei Dark Archers? Is Kul Tiras Horde content because Tandred is Forsaken?

Blizzard itself is moving away from faction specific lore and you want to make the most neutral place in all Warcraft lore Horde content.

Yeah it’s a Horde story because it’s likely to revolve around 2 horde faction leaders; Gazlowe and Gallywix, and give a neglected Horde race some much needed lore and their homeland back.

Undercity is now Alliance then?

[Cheezits]

This is definitely just pointless arguing on semantics. TWW is not an Alliance-only expansion but many people feel it is an Alliance expansion because the racial aesthetics of the Earthen and Arathi feel more Alliance than Horde.

How people feel about something is more important than what it canonically is.

People will 100% feel a Goblin patch is more Horde aligned as Goblins, despite only two cartels being Horde, are a Horde playable race, have historically been associated with the Horde, and appear more often in Horde areas.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Isn't the canonical stormwind 3 times larger than the one we see in game. There's supposed to be a huge residential area to the northwest of the main city.

Every thing is much much larger in canon ya.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

If we have a scenario where we depose Gallywix and Gazlowe takes it over, then what’s the difference?

Has this happened?

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I’m not seeing how Undermine being neutral changes the fact that it’s still a Goblin city run by Goblins

100% of all goblins on Azeroth are not 100% apart of the Horde.

and will be a massive lore dump and storyline for one of the playable Horde races who have connections to that location.

Do you have a crystal ball? I'm not sure why you are making arguments with many people, portraying something as a fact, when such details have not happened.

You should learn to use words like "likelihood"

[Khaza-R]

I don't know why people are continuing to harp on factions when there hasn't been a faction specific storyline in the game for nearly 6 years now. The factions serve no purpose in the narrative anymore. If people want to complain that x race is under-represented that's one thing but factions are functionally obsoleted at this point.

And TWW seems to be doing a pretty good job on expanding upon races which have been neglected for years. Goblins and Dwarves haven't gotten the spotlight since Cataclysm. Nerubians got shafted by Azol'Nerub being cut in WotLk. Even the Arathi storyline offers something totally new for humans. People are better off if you remove looking at the story from lense of Horde/Alliance only.

[Makorus]

Yeah it’s a Horde story because it’s likely to revolve around 2 horde faction leaders; Gazlowe and Gallywix, and give a neglected Horde race some much needed lore and their homeland back.

You don't know what it's going to revolve around.

It could very well be a case of "Oh no, Venture Co. completely took over! We have to stop them!" with a focus on both Gnomes/Goblins equally because they usually share a space. Yeah, the story in your mind that hasn't happened yet is absolutely a Horde scenario.

But Undermine inherently is not Horde. Undermine has NOTHING to do with the Horde. Just because Goblins are in the Horde doesn't mean a story set in Gadgetzan is Horde, or a story set in Everlook is Horde. The player goblins aren't even from Undermine. (Just to pre-emptively stop a long discussion: I know that Undermine is the capital of Kezan.)

[Teriz]

This is definitely just pointless arguing on semantics. TWW is not an Alliance-only expansion but many people feel it is an Alliance expansion because the racial aesthetics of the Earthen and Arathi feel more Alliance than Horde.

How people feel about something is more important than what it canonically is.

People will 100% feel a Goblin patch is more Horde aligned as Goblins, despite only two cartels being Horde, are a Horde playable race, have historically been associated with the Horde, and appear more often in Horde areas.

Exactly. People thinking goblin content involving Horde faction leaders wouldn’t be considered Horde content are being willfully obtuse.

[Timester]

Exactly. People thinking goblin content involving Horde faction leaders wouldn’t be considered Horde content are being willfully obtuse.

I really doubt that Cheezits was agreeing with you, but only him/her can answer.

And calling the others "obtuse" about a raid scenario and lore situation that only happens in your head is a bit... soul searching.

[Teriz]

Is Teldrassil Horde content because the Forsaken now have undead Kaldorei Dark Archers? Is Kul Tiras Horde content because Tandred is Forsaken?

Teldrassil isn't the homeland of Forsaken, and Goblins living in Undermine aren't default enemies of the Bildgewater Cartel (Horde).

Terrible comparison.

[Timester]

I don't know why people are continuing to harp on factions when there hasn't been a faction specific storyline in the game for nearly 6 years now. The factions serve no purpose in the narrative anymore. If people want to complain that x race is under-represented that's one thing but factions are functionally obsoleted at this point.

And TWW seems to be doing a pretty good job on expanding upon races which have been neglected for years. Goblins and Dwarves haven't gotten the spotlight since Cataclysm. Nerubians got shafted by Azol'Nerub being cut in WotLk. Even the Arathi storyline offers something totally new for humans. People are better off if you remove looking at the story from lense of Horde/Alliance only.

Pretty much.

Really, the only factions moment I saw in the entire beta so far was the Earthen training, where we get quests from BOTH Alliance and Horde commanders and they bicker about the best army training method.

[Teriz]

You don't know what it's going to revolve around.

It could very well be a case of "Oh no, Venture Co. completely took over! We have to stop them!" with a focus on both Gnomes/Goblins equally because they usually share a space. Yeah, the story in your mind that hasn't happened yet is absolutely a Horde scenario.

Doubtful, since there's no prominent Gnomes anywhere in sight, and the player, whether alliance or horde is going to be following Gazlowe and (possibly) Thrall to Undermine.

But Undermine inherently is not Horde. Undermine has NOTHING to do with the Horde. Just because Goblins are in the Horde doesn't mean a story set in Gadgetzan is Horde, or a story set in Everlook is Horde. The player goblins aren't even from Undermine. (Just to pre-emptively stop a long discussion: I know that Undermine is the capital of Kezan.)

How are they not from Undermine when Undermine is the capital of the area that the player goblin starts in?

This is the level of obtuse nonsense I'm talking about.

[Joshuaj]

Okay, Blizzard...maybe now is the time to finally give us chronicle previews, what do ya say?

[Timester]

Teldrassil isn't the homeland of Forsaken, and Goblins living in Undermine aren't default enemies of the Bildgewater Cartel (Horde).

Terrible comparison.

Sure about that? Delaryn Summermoon and her dark rangers.

Second part? Venture Co.

[Teriz]

I really doubt that Cheezits was agreeing with you, but only him/her can answer.

And calling the others "obtuse" about a raid scenario and lore situation that only happens in your head is a bit... soul searching.

"Obtuse" is pretending that a location and a raid completely based on a horde race isn't horde-based content.

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Sure about that? Delaryn Summermoon and her dark rangers.

Second part? Venture Co.

I wasn't aware that Delaryn Summermoon was born a forsaken.

Also we encounter Venture Co. Goblins in Khaz Algar and they're not our enemies.

[Timester]

"Obtuse" is pretending that a location and a raid completely based on a horde race isn't horde-based content.

When there are no arguments, the name calling and trolling starts.

Ignored and moving on.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

"Obtuse" is pretending that a location and a raid completely based on a horde race isn't horde-based content.

Obtuse is arguing a fiction, which has not happened yet or may very well never happen, as a purported fact and being unable to recognize this. Instead, you double triple-down on this absurdity.

[Teriz]

Has this happened?

It appears to be setting up for that showdown, since Gazlowe is prominent in 11.0 and the short story, and Gallywix's storyline works into the Venture Co. and Undermine after the events in BFA.

100% of all goblins on Azeroth are not 100% apart of the Horde.

But 100% of all player goblins come from Kezan/Undermine, and Blizzard stated that one of their goals is for Goblin players to experience Undermine.

Do you have a crystal ball? I'm not sure why you are making arguments with many people, portraying something as a fact, when such details have not happened.

You should learn to use words like "likelihood"

IF Undermine occurs as a zone and raid my statement you quoted would be an unavoidable fact.

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Obtuse is arguing a fiction....

Where's the fiction? There is evidence of an Undermine patch in TWW. If that turns out to be true, that would easily be considered Horde content.