Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Eldryth]

About that Earthen Druid NPC that was found in a Follower Dungeon a while back- apparently she was changed to a Shaman (who still wears leather armor) at some point. I haven't redone any Freysworn quests to see if they're still basically Druids, but hopefully they didn't back away from that entirely- I thought they were interesting and I was hoping they would lead to playable Earthen Druids down the line.

And I doubt this will lead to anything, but the Rookery Follower tank is a Shaman. He uses a a single one-handed mace with no shield, and seems to just cast instant Chain Lightnings and auto attack. As much as people want Shaman tanks (I don't tank so I have no personal stake but I'd be happy for others if it happens), even if they do happen down the line, I can't imagine them resembling that.

[Lady Atia]

"Here are some passages

Realms of Death

"Though this tome previously set forth the creation of the physical universe, the Pantheon of Death believed differently. A myth had taken root in the Shadowlands, centered around a mysterious and enigmatic beings known as the First Ones""

From Chronicle Volume 4.

Yeah seems to simply take from what Odyn said in his edicts. Order documentations can't talk about the Progenitors (Namely due to the idea that mortals can't comprehend their existence), so anything regarding them should be automatically ignored and expressed as "myth/legend".

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It's not retconned, it's just Order creating a narrative to write-off their existence so they don't have to explain it.

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Though it seems Order and Death both have massive disagreements with one another.

Death seems to think Order believes in the Titans architecting the Cosmos, when in Chronicle it's stated that Light and Shadow created everything, not Order.

And Order seems to think that Death believes the First Ones created the physical universe and whatnot, when in reality it simply believes that the Progenitors created the cosmic forces which shaped the universe (This is prolly both a bias and an agenda Order is tryna push since they themselves know the First Ones are the actual makers). But still, we know for a fact that Light and Shadow created the physical universe and whatnot, as per the thousand years of a war audio drama.

The ACTUAL answer for all of this is that the Progenitors created the forces and the pattern, and those forces would create the mortal realm as a result.

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Yeah I fucking cooked.

Do you have any other infos about chronicles IV? looks like some hardcopies did arrive early?

[allegrian]

Yeah, the First Ones per se are not a problem.

During the early days of WoW the Titans were some untouchable, unreachable force. Far away in the distance, the stuff of Legends. In Legion we basically saved their asses, killed another titan and imprisoned Sargeras.
The First Ones taking the place of these weird, unknowable creators Is actually fine, as long as they don't repeat the same mistakes they did with the titans.

They are, as they are just the exact same plot beat as the titans by making them create life through robots. It's super unoriginal and just shows how the story devs just want to put their print in the game but are so bad that they just copy what came before.

They are repeating story beats all the time, just look at suramar and how they are azshara 2.0 or sondorei 2.0, and now earthen that are a mix of dark iron, bronzebeard and wildhammer themes.

[Lady Atia]

They are, as they are just the exact same plot beat as the titans by making them create life through robots. It's super unoriginal and just shows how the story devs just want to put their print in the game but are so bad that they just copy what came before.

They are repeating story beats all the time, just look at suramar and how they are azshara 2.0 or sondorei 2.0, and now earthen that are a mix of dark iron, bronzebeard and wildhammer themes.

Ok, so if Blizzard decides to do something new it's shit, but when they do something similiar to established stuff, it's shit too?

Idk man, I just think you want to hate for hate's sake. Also, even George Lukas once said "It's like poetry, they rhyme".

[Shadowferal]

A good story doesn't need gods.

It does however need better writing, both for the forces that be (non-sentient as they are) as well as for the near-gods that populate said writing.

/co-signed
It doesn't need gods, nor any explanation of magic. That damned chart is just a cage for ideas that no one needed.

[Scyth]

About that Earthen Druid NPC that was found in a Follower Dungeon a while back- apparently she was changed to a Shaman (who still wears leather armor) at some point. I haven't redone any Freysworn quests to see if they're still basically Druids, but hopefully they didn't back away from that entirely- I thought they were interesting and I was hoping they would lead to playable Earthen Druids down the line.

And I doubt this will lead to anything, but the Rookery Follower tank is a Shaman. He uses a a single one-handed mace with no shield, and seems to just cast instant Chain Lightnings and auto attack. As much as people want Shaman tanks (I don't tank so I have no personal stake but I'd be happy for others if it happens), even if they do happen down the line, I can't imagine them resembling that.

I can't see them adding a 4th spec to Shamans. They already ignore them a lot, why add an additional spec for them to ignore lol

I'd love to have a tank spec that makes use of Earth a lot more though. Or an actual Elementalist type of spec that uses all 4 elements for tanking purposes.

[Lady Atia]

I can't see them adding a 4th spec to Shamans. They already ignore them a lot, why add an additional spec for them to ignore lol

I'd love to have a tank spec that makes use of Earth a lot more though. Or an actual Elementalist type of spec that uses all 4 elements for tanking purposes.

Tbf they did experiment with new roles for certain classes during SoD and I'm sure we will see them added over time to retail if their data proofs them popular.

[Ersula]

Tbf they did experiment with new roles for certain classes during SoD and I'm sure we will see them added over time to retail if their data proofs them popular.

if you ignore Mage healer is just Discipline Priest, Tank Warlock is just Demon Hunter & Tank Rogue is just Brewmaster

[Cheezits]

I really, really think that the First Ones and Titans being so similar is not laziness but is a direct plot beat. The Odyn writing in DF implies the Titans have a special connection to them and their own Zereth, but covers it up either due to pride or secret instructions from higher up. They even have the constellar hanging out in Mortis and they are either THE Order creatures or are their servants.

As always I still believe the FOs are Titans that time travelled back to the beginning of time (setting things up so they would be the dominant force in the future), or they are direct descendants/heirs of the FOs after they did the original cosmos split. They may even be (literal) copies of them.

Could they have been ambiguous gods that don't match any of the existing themes and aesthetics? Sure. Would that have been a better plot? Can't say. I personally like this level of intrigue, it reeks of entities manipulating things behind the scenes, which is a story type I enjoy.

[Enrif]

if you ignore Mage healer is just Discipline Priest, Tank Warlock is just Demon Hunter & Tank Rogue is just Brewmaster

Well, i once imagined an alternate timeline for WoW, where instead of adding new classes, they simply added new specs to old classes that have the theme of the added classe. But not just giving them a 4th spec, but exchanging one spec/talent tree with a different one.

For Wrath we get Death Knight specs for Warrior, Paladin and Shaman. Warrior loses Fury and gains Blood (blood DPS with enough heal to off-tank at that point in time), Paladin loses Holy and gains Unholy, Shaman looses Restoration and gain Frost (frost shaman tank!)

I would spin this further for other classes.

For Mists, Rogues loses Subtlety and gains Windwalker, Druid loses Balance and gains Brewmaster, Priest loses Discipline and gain Mistweaver.

For Legion, Warlock loses Demonology and gains Vengeance, Rogue loses Assassination and gains Havoc.

For DF, Mage would loose Arcane and gain Devastation, Shaman would loose Elemental and gain Augmentation, Hunter would loose Survival and gain Preservation


But these versions of the specs would be vastly different to what we actually got. But i found it to be an interesting mind exercise.

[Joshuaj]

Do you have any other infos about chronicles IV? looks like some hardcopies did arrive early?

Someone got a hard copy early, and I managed to get others to focus on it lol. But they don't want to share images as to not evoke Blizzards wrath (so we only have one image of proof to work with atm).

Basically, it's more like Chronicle 3 than Chronicles 1-2. There is no new Cosmology chart, there's nothing expanding on things like Archimondes demise or the nature of the Progenitors (outside of doubling down on Odyn's Edicts of course). It's just a quick summary of recent events. Hell, there apparently isn't even an illustration on Zereth Mortis which upsets me (though I'm not surprised considering Order REALLY wants to keep that info on the down low, especially since they're making the narrative that the First Ones are simply that of legend).

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I really, really think that the First Ones and Titans being so similar is not laziness but is a direct plot beat. The Odyn writing in DF implies the Titans have a special connection to them and their own Zereth, but covers it up either due to pride or secret instructions from higher up. They even have the constellar hanging out in Mortis and they are either THE Order creatures or are their servants.

As always I still believe the FOs are Titans that time travelled back to the beginning of time (setting things up so they would be the dominant force in the future), or they are direct descendants/heirs of the FOs after they did the original cosmos split. They may even be (literal) copies of them.

Could they have been ambiguous gods that don't match any of the existing themes and aesthetics? Sure. Would that have been a better plot? Can't say. I personally like this level of intrigue, it reeks of entities manipulating things behind the scenes, which is a story type I enjoy.

It's not laziness. Hell, outside of basic, similar connections, the Titans and the First Ones are fundamentally different looool.

I prefer the idea that the Progenitors are different from the Titans, and that the Titans were given a specific purpose we know nothing of yet, hence why they have a lot of reign in the Dark Beyond.

[milkmustache]

I really, really think that the First Ones and Titans being so similar is not laziness but is a direct plot beat. The Odyn writing in DF implies the Titans have a special connection to them and their own Zereth, but covers it up either due to pride or secret instructions from higher up. They even have the constellar hanging out in Mortis and they are either THE Order creatures or are their servants.

As always I still believe the FOs are Titans that time travelled back to the beginning of time (setting things up so they would be the dominant force in the future), or they are direct descendants/heirs of the FOs after they did the original cosmos split. They may even be (literal) copies of them.

Could they have been ambiguous gods that don't match any of the existing themes and aesthetics? Sure. Would that have been a better plot? Can't say. I personally like this level of intrigue, it reeks of entities manipulating things behind the scenes, which is a story type I enjoy.

This is a cool interpretation of it. I could see this happening.

I think a lot of TLT is meant to show how their hubris will be their downfall. A ton of manipulation, members being compromised by other forces, inner politics vying for supremacy that we're not privy to. The Pantheon are the First Ones, created the cosmos, either stepped into the Pantheon to "oversee" or made whatever copies of themselves as the Pantheon to still have a stake in the cosmos, still think they deserve control, etc etc. I hope it's along that course, that'd be an awesome way to tie in Shadowlands.

[Joshuaj]

This is a cool interpretation of it. I could see this happening.

I think a lot of TLT is meant to show how their hubris will be their downfall. A ton of manipulation, members being compromised by other forces, inner politics vying for supremacy that we're not privy to. The Pantheon are the First Ones, created the cosmos, either stepped into the Pantheon to "oversee" or made whatever copies of themselves as the Pantheon to still have a stake in the cosmos, still think they deserve control, etc etc. I hope it's along that course, that'd be an awesome way to tie in Shadowlands.

People really need to stop the idea that the First Ones are the Titans.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Though this tome previously set forth the creation of the physical universe, the Pantheon of Death believed differently. A myth had taken root in the Shadowlands, centered around a mysterious and enigmatic beings known as the First Ones

> set forth the creation of the physical universe
> a myth had taken root

Shadowlands cosmology decanonization train let's gooo

[Cheezits]

This is a cool interpretation of it. I could see this happening.

I think a lot of TLT is meant to show how their hubris will be their downfall. A ton of manipulation, members being compromised by other forces, inner politics vying for supremacy that we're not privy to. The Pantheon are the First Ones, created the cosmos, either stepped into the Pantheon to "oversee" or made whatever copies of themselves as the Pantheon to still have a stake in the cosmos, still think they deserve control, etc etc. I hope it's along that course, that'd be an awesome way to tie in Shadowlands.

Yeah I think the "conspiracy" of TLT will of course involve Azeroth's true nature and the Titans meddling/forcibly transforming her, but I hope it will extend to a greater scheme that involves their strange relationships with Light/Life and their similarities to the First Ones.

Considering their leader is a Timelord I assume Time will be involved in all of this and, if I remember right, there was some pretty heavy hinting in SL that the secret 7th force is actually Time itself. Not to mention the hint that the Primus and Aman'thul directly knew each other. And the possible meta hint that they are both bearded old men (Father Time comparisons)

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> set forth the creation of the physical universe
> a myth had taken root

Shadowlands cosmology decanonization train let's gooo

If this just means "the First Ones were a myth created by the Titans" it goes along with how they were portrayed in SL. But people will 100% take it as a "lol we win Danuser btfo" moment (maybe for the better as the community seems to get better when he is the punching bag).

Even if the First Ones was a 7D plot trick to begin with it still doesn't excuse the rest of the shitty SL plot and miserable expansion atmosphere so it's not like he's fully excused.

[Shadowferal]

> set forth the creation of the physical universe > a myth had taken root

Shadowlands cosmology decanonization train let's gooo

A myth as opposed to what wasn't myth previously...
So, I'd have hit; Though this tome previously set forth... decanonization...wrecktcon...

[Joshuaj]

> set forth the creation of the physical universe
> a myth had taken root

Shadowlands cosmology decanonization train let's gooo

Nothing's retconned. Read the Edicts of Odyn. There's an in-universe explanation for why Chronicle considers this a "myth".

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"Third: Do not share knowledge of the First Ones.

Mortals could not conceive of the wonders that the makers granted to the titans in Zereth Ordus. Thus, learning of the Progenitors would only confuse them.

It is enough that mortals know the titans brought Order to the cosmos, and that they are owed deference."

-Edicts of the Prime Designate, Volume 742

If anything regarding the Progenitor's is mentioned, it must automatically be disregarded and deemed as "myth". As decreed by Odyn, mortals must not know that the First Ones are true, nor should they know the Progenitors workings.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I, for one, await the return of our titanic masters. Odyn needs to get mommy and daddy to come home sooner!

[Joshuaj]

Yeah I think the "conspiracy" of TLT will of course involve Azeroth's true nature and the Titans meddling/forcibly transforming her, but I hope it will extend to a greater scheme that involves their strange relationships with Light/Life and their similarities to the First Ones.

Considering their leader is a Timelord I assume Time will be involved in all of this and, if I remember right, there was some pretty heavy hinting in SL that the secret 7th force is actually Time itself. Not to mention the hint that the Primus and Aman'thul directly knew each other. And the possible meta hint that they are both bearded old men (Father Time comparisons)

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If this just means "the First Ones were a myth created by the Titans" it goes along with how they were portrayed in SL. But people will 100% take it as a "lol we win Danuser btfo" moment (maybe for the better as the community seems to get better when he is the punching bag).

Even if the First Ones was a 7D plot trick to begin with it still doesn't excuse the rest of the shitty SL plot and miserable expansion atmosphere so it's not like he's fully excused.

Nothing explores that the Progenitor's were Titan myth. If anything, Chronicle goes out of its way to say that the Progenitors were a myth created by Death, which we know to be false in actuality.

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I, for one, await the return of our titanic masters. Odyn needs to get mommy and daddy to come home sooner!

No one said anything about not wanting the Titans back lol

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People need to understand, that in Odyn and co's perspective, Mortals have an easier time just accepting the fact that Light and Shadow created not just the beyond, but everything else, and that the Titans worked their magic from there.

They would NOT however accept the idea that some mathematical architects created the cosmic powers, the gods of said powers, and a design which would serve as the balancing measure for said forces, as well as serve as the blueprint for literally everything ever.

[huth]

/co-signed
It doesn't need gods, nor any explanation of magic. That damned chart is just a cage for ideas that no one needed.

Not if you treat it as what Blizzard told us it is. A list of known forces in no particular order.