Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Xilurm]

"Try not to bring up Shadowlands any time someone criticises old-WoW" Challenge: Impossible.

"Try not to shit on a franchise you like" Challenge: Impossible.

Oh I feel so enlightened to know that Warcraft is not unique and that it takes from other things that came before it. Now I can also tell all those dirty peasants that like the same thing that I do that they should always pay their respects to the OGs first and foremost.

Rule #1: Make sure you light a candle for Tolkien any time you log into WoW. (that includes if you got D/C'ed)

[allegrian]

There is merit in adding new specs to preexisting classes, as new classes as an expansion feature have no value to people who are already invested in their mains. This is the route GW2 went as they stopped adding new classes that few people would ditch their main to switch to and instead just continued adding new specs to every class that people already invested in their mains might switch to. Well they kinda promised to do this with hero talent specs but they are nowhere near as extensive as GW2's elite specializations, each of which adds a new weapon with new abilities for that weapon, as three new abilities and a healing ability and an ultimate ability as well as several talents you can use.

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Almost all of the problems with Shadowlands' lore would be solved if rather than it being the actual afterlife, it was instead a parallel dimension that was had become parasitic as they intercepted other dimensions' souls before they reached the real afterlife and used those souls for fuel.

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It's really funny how all of these continents are being stuffed in there in between Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, how entire navies from WC3 through Cata were sailing between the EK and Kalimdor and never stumbled into them.

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Looks like it might be cool, will have to see a scan of the full sized art first. The Jailer did look kinda cool in his armor. He would have been less ridiculed as "the bald man" had he donned that armor by the end of the base game levelling experience rather than players seeing his nipples for 8 months.



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Goes to show how Blizzard lost their creative talent. They were able to create such unique factions in WC3 with the savage wood elven army, the Scourge, and Illidan's coalition and the Legion. They also again created some cool new factions in MoP with the Mogu, the Mantid, and the Zandalari. But then in Shadowlands you get such derivative or bland factions such as passive blue greek angels, tumblrface fairies, two different diluted Scourge rehashes, and generic gothic vampires. Only the 3D printer mobs in Zereth Mortis were kinda unique.

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The villain being a decrepit old man hunched over his staff could have been a unique final boss fight. He would use magic to keep the raid at a distance and only at the end, after his barriers have been broken and he has become exhausted would the raid close in on him and execute him.

Blizzard has a creative problem if after 20 years they still need to rely so much on W3 or W2 characters. They created new characters but most didn't land enough to get an spot next to Jaina, Thrall, Tyrande... Only Anduin and he's almost used as an alternative Arthas that stays paladin.
They tried with Taelia and then abandoned her, and then with Bolvar it looked like he would be a cool protagonist in SL and did nothing as well.

They should focus on making protagonist noc visible through a full expansion to make them look as cool and important as W3 heroes, and make their story and personality different than 90% of stories and characters they are creating lately.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Blizzard has a creative problem if after 20 years they still need to rely so much on W3 or W2 characters. They created new characters but most didn't land enough to get an spot next to Jaina, Thrall, Tyrande...

There are several original WoW characters I like. The Bronzebeard brothers (pretty samey but pleasant), Gallywix, Garrosh, Lorewalker Cho, Wrathion, Genn, probably some others I am forgetting. There are characters Blizzard can base a story around, though I fear modern Blizzard would not be able to execute it well.

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Only Anduin and he's almost used as an alternative Arthas that stays paladin.

Arthas and Anduin are not alike. Arthas was a go-getter who took the initiative and had confidence ordering other people around, and pursuing mysterious and elusive foes with minimal backup. Anduin has a passive demeanor. There are a few instances where he does stuff on his own like in MoP, but after that heavily relies on the consensus of the other leaders and seems to be easily discouraged and requires other people to convince him. And frankly, he is too soft. By BFA, he shouldn't be having second thoughts, and if he does then he should be intelligent enough to realize that hesitation will be fatal and that he should step aside. Shit or get off the pot. I think it is possible to have a thoughtful leader who is also confident and hard and proactive against evil.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Warcraft was always incredibly formulaic and simplistic, with barely any original ideas.

Give me a single post-2014 WoW storyline anywhere near as good as Arthas' story.

I think it is possible to have a thoughtful leader who is also confident and hard and proactive against evil.

While people label post-Legion Anduin as "Manduin", I honestly think he was more proactive and genuinely heroic in MoP.

[allegrian]

I think the way DF delivered the story was fine? You had different things happening all over the place. The only issue I had was renown took a long time to get.

I don't think so, the story lacked focus, pivoted randomly, relied too much on ancient wow lore and didn't feature a focused cast of protagonists.

The whole "we need to get our powers back with oathstones and Tyr" is abandoned the first patch and they get them back randomly and unexpectedly in a B plot (amirdrassil) that's more related to night elves than the DF plot.
We have the Wrathion story since cata setting him up to be the aspect and then they drop it randomly in 10.1.

We spend most of the leveling experiencie with random races such as centaur and tuskarr and not focusing on main plot or dragon characrers. The red dragonflight is nonexistant beyond Alexstrasza, who does nothing, and the blue dragonflight gets a text based quest chain to wrap up their story.
Murozond stuff is brought back just to hastily be resolved and the tyr resurrection goes nowhere.

The only plot I kinda liked was the amirdrassil one as it felt like the epilogue and happy ending of the BFA - SL story of night elf revenge, nothing to do with DF itself.

[Makorus]

Give me a single post-2014 WoW storyline anywhere near as good as Arthas' story.



While people label post-Legion Anduin as "Manduin", I honestly think he was more proactive and genuinely heroic in MoP.

???? I literally didn't even say new WoW is better.

It's just Warcraft never was anything special

Arthas' story is literally just a generic "Fallen Hero" story, with no nuance whatsoever. There were like 3-4 identical stories coming out that exact same year.

It was always schlock, and that is completely fine, it's a video game, not everything needs to be some deep and complex exploration of the human psyche or whatever, yet people pretend it's the best written story in gaming ever. To me, people praising Arthas as "morally ambiguous!" or as a complex character just shows me a lack of media literacy.

And yeah, I like the schlock, and I think the storytelling has been consistently adequate, but people need to take their rose-tinted glasses and see that the quality of the writing has in no way dropped significantly.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

media literacy.

I love this new buzzword. Someone doesn't need to use it right to use it, they can just use it as a "you're big and dumb" button for any conversation about media; that said, "media literacy" being used as a synonym for "taste" is a new one.

[micwini]

I love this new buzzword. Someone doesn't need to use it right to use it, they can just use it as a "you're big and dumb" button for any conversation about media; that said, "media literacy" being used as a synonym for "taste" is a new one.

There is no point in discussing with the person you quoted. Everything that comes out of there is buzzwords, strawmans and fallacies.
Arthas is a simple story, yes, but it was done well. Blizzard has done a good job with MoP when it came to story. Start with a question and end with answering said question. With lots of good story and worldbuilding in between. Legion was OK.

But they've been trying more complex stories and failed at it, because their writers are not that good. It's a video game. The story needs to be compelling, simple and executed well. We don't need complex narratives to have a good story.

[Shadowferal]

Just because Shadowlands wasn't the most enlightening and best written experience doesn't mean that anything before that is.

No one was looking for "best written." But you were paying for something "well written."

Warcraft was always incredibly formulaic and simplistic, with barely any original ideas.

And here we are with Shadowlands.

[Makorus]

And here we are with Shadowlands.

Sorry, let me just use my comment from earlier:

"Try not to bring up Shadowlands any time someone criticises old-WoW" Challenge: Impossible.

You can think that Warcraft always had mediocre writing without thinking that Shadowlands had better writing.

[Lady Atia]

Biggest issue is that WoW expansions since WoD have never delivered a satisfying, self contained story. You buy the $50 expansion on launch day and play through the content and get a "to be continued". Then you unsub and wait two years for all of the patches to come out and resub hoping to get the conclusion, and instead get another "to be continued in the next expansion!". There is no ending, no catharsis. WoW has become a TV soap opera that drags you around forever until it is cancelled.

Wtf. Or you know, maybe you aren't supposed to unsub and come back at the end of an expansion? That's not how mmo's are supposed to be played lol.

And I like the fact that the story never ends. Endings are shit. Again, you have that in single players games. I want a WORLD. You know, a WORLD doesn't suddenly end. There is always something going on, storywise. That's only natural lol.

Also, last but not least, "story contained to a single expansion" turned out to be shit as fuck anyways, people want expansions connected and stuff set up well in advance, that's why we get the worldsoul saga lol.

[Makabreska]

Biggest issue is that WoW expansions since WoD have never delivered a satisfying, self contained story. You buy the $50 expansion on launch day and play through the content and get a "to be continued". Then you unsub and wait two years for all of the patches to come out and resub hoping to get the conclusion, and instead get another "to be continued in the next expansion!". There is no ending, no catharsis. WoW has become a TV soap opera that drags you around forever until it is cancelled.

If this is how you play WoW, then no wonder you are so confused about the game.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

If this is how you play WoW, then no wonder you are so confused about the game.

You are speaking to somebody who openly shares that he does not consider anything past MoP as canon to the game.

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I think the way DF delivered the story was fine? You had different things happening all over the place. The only issue I had was renown took a long time to get.

I think the execution of telling the story in DF was thought out and on point. The story itself, especially after the VotI raid, started to suffer in my opinion. Blizzard continues to fine tune how they tell the story and what they convey in-game. It definitely shows.

[Jaggler]

That's Life, Death, Order, and Disorder.

So maybe Nature, Death, Law, and Chaos? Idk.

Light and Shadow aren't there tho, weirdly enough

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And yes Val. The art so far looks great

In regards to the Arcana Card,

it's just a zoomed inl, lightly edited version of the cosmology chart. Light and Void would be off-screen at the top and bottom respectively. It probably would look really busy and cramped if they included them

[huth]

Do we have the full image for this btw or not yet?

The order is different than the one from the Chronicle, but it's fundamentally the same information. So i doubt that'd be super interesting.

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In regards to the Arcana Card,

it's just a zoomed inl, lightly edited version of the cosmology chart. Light and Void would be off-screen at the top and bottom respectively. It probably would look really busy and cramped if they included them

Not quite, Light and Void are barely out of frame on the left and right side. You can see part of the border of their circles. In the Chronicle chart, they'd be clearly visible at the top and bottom and the visible ones would be farther apart. Still, there's absolutely nothing new on it, just the known entities.

[Zardas]

Give me a single post-2014 WoW storyline anywhere near as good as Arthas' story.

The person you quoted wasn't complaining about the quality of the story, but about the fact that it was very formulaistic. Artha's story, as good as it is, is still very generic.

[Jaggler]

The order is different than the one from the Chronicle, but it's fundamentally the same information. So i doubt that'd be super interesting.

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Not quite, Light and Void are barely out of frame on the left and right side. You can see part of the border of their circles. In the Chronicle chart, they'd be clearly visible at the top and bottom and the visible ones would be farther apart. Still, there's absolutely nothing new on it, just the known entities.

To me they just look like the rings of the "Water" and "Air" circles legt and right in the chart but in the end it doesn't really matter. it's not like there is anything to read into that.

[Joshuaj]

In regards to the Arcana Card,

it's just a zoomed inl, lightly edited version of the cosmology chart. Light and Void would be off-screen at the top and bottom respectively. It probably would look really busy and cramped if they included them

Nah. Light and Shadow are left and right, not up and down.

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To me they just look like the rings of the "Water" and "Air" circles legt and right in the chart but in the end it doesn't really matter. it's not like there is anything to read into that.

You literally can't see much of the last 2 circles at all outside of the edges of them. And besides, why would Air and Water be connected to the other 4 cosmic powers?

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Ahh, yes. I recall so much about the Covenants. Man, I love the... uh... fairy ones. And the Bargain Bin Scourge. And the—snore.

Yep. I too love the Night Fae, the Necrolords, the Kyrian, and the Venthyr. They're really cool and they represent different aspects of Death in WoW.

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No one was looking for "best written." But you were paying for something "well written." And here we are with Shadowlands.

No one is saying Shadowlands is "well written" but you can't deny it had a lot of cool things setting-wise.

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Give me a single post-2014 WoW storyline anywhere near as good as Arthas' story.



While people label post-Legion Anduin as "Manduin", I honestly think he was more proactive and genuinely heroic in MoP.

Illidan's storyline in Legion. Velen and KJs final convo in Legion. Literally all of Anduin's story so far.

:/

[milkmustache]

The worst thing about Shadowlands is how frequently it raises these sort of conversations that go absolutely nowhere but argument.

Do we think Lightforged Gorehowl is anything, or just a prop with Netease? It's poignant and on the nose for the next few expansions, but could just be a brief homage. Is it possible that the Beledar has some relation to the Lightforged and Yrel? Will we see anything happen with it this expansion or will it be a Vakthros?

[Houle]

He also had an old concept design where he looked like Hades from Greek Myth, and while I do love that a ton, I think it would've given away the "first Arbiter" twist too easily.

Ehh, i think the "twist" was actually far, far more obvious with the new model. The Arbiter had a big orb in its chest, he had a round hole. Ive seen people theorize that he was the Arbiter bc of that pretty much ever since his model was datamined. So in theory it was more fitting i suppose.

Illidan's storyline in Legion. Velen and KJs final convo in Legion. Literally all of Anduin's story so far.

:/

Illidan in Legion had pretty much one good point - when he told the golden windchime to beat it. Besides that, it was stuffed full of retcons and turned Illidan, who was previously one of the very few actually "morally grey" characters (besides TBC for obvious reasons) into the average edgy antihero.

The convo between Kil'jaeden and Velen was pretty good for Warcraft standards ngl

Anduins story was almost completely boring until Legion, and then pretty average from there on.

Arthas' story is literally just a generic "Fallen Hero" story, with no nuance whatsoever. There were like 3-4 identical stories coming out that exact same year.

It may not have been innovative, but it was simple and effective, instead of trying so hard to be convoluted and mysterious (but still just remaining mostly boring) like much of the newer lore. It wasnt overly deep or complex, but it was fun. The newer lore often tries to go both grander in scale and more mystery-box-style, but is mostly just boring, bc an MMORPG like WoW is just not a very good medium for that. And the constant retcons almost every new xpac every few years also dont help ofc.

And yeah, I like the schlock, and I think the storytelling has been consistently adequate, but people need to take their rose-tinted glasses and see that the quality of the writing has in no way dropped significantly.

Lawl.
Again, it mightve never been the pinnacle of fantasy writing, but if you are seriously trying to say that BfA and SL are not significantly worse than WC3, then man, you might need to drop the recency-bias.